Player Features and Ideas Discussion

And you want to make that 95%.


This line of logic shows that you don't get it.


As does this.


Your solution is crazier.

And you still haven't explained how you get from empty space with local to more people in space without local, other than more cloaky gangs. Also, you can get delayed local right now by flying into a wormhole. So why reinvent the wheel? W-space has an even smaller population than nullsec and has almost as many systems. So you have no excuse as CCP has already provided pretty much everything you are asking for in w-space. No blobs, no titan bridging, no local, no sov gringing. So go in to a wormhole and be happy.


And you are not seeing the points about why nullsec is mostly empty. It is empty because their is nothing worth doing there. You can't find some one to shoot at because no one wants to hang out there. Taking away local won't fix that. It will still be empty, only now you won't know it without several minutes of probing.

So we have explained in terms of isk/hr, risk/reward, and how it has no effect of current sov dynamics, and it all points to nullsec being an over all less popular place to hang out and be shot at.

You are just waving your hands, and might as well be claiming magic, that for some reason people will come out to a riskier nullsec to make ultimately less isk then if they had just stayed in high/lowsec, and way less then they could make in a wormhole.


Hear it is in simple terms;

If you make it harder for people to do PvE and industry, less people will do PvE and industry. We already proved this with the Gallente ice interdiction. If we make it so that you are more likely to die mining Gallente ice, less people will mine it. Not more. The number of people who went to go mine gallente ice for the challenge were far outnumbered by the people who moved to where mining ice was less dangerous.

If you make belt and anom ratting and hauling stuff around nullsec more dangerous, by taking away local as an intel tool, less people will rat/mine/haul. Less people living and doing stuff in nullsec means less people for you to shoot at.

Looking at what CCP had to do to get people to go back into lowsec, the ridiculous payouts for orbiting a structure in a frigate with no guns, maybe no-local would be a good thing in the long run. Nullsec becomes a ghost town. A year or so later and CCP will add some new content to get people back. Exploit the hell out of the new content until CCP panics and nerfs it into the ground.

Maybe no-local is a long-con nullsec buff?

That would be a step in the right direction if you must remove local, but it still begs the question: why not just go to WHs and get a higher reward for your effort? Which, of course, is fixed by increasing rewards in null, but that in turns begs the question why go to WHs etc. This, however, isn't part of the OP, in fact the OP is all classic "wah remove local so I can gank people".

Now, I wouldn't directly mind if Whs were depopulated in favor of nullsec if WHs were to be more effort than nullsec, yet same rewards, but it's definitely something to take into the equation. WHs are special in the way they're structured, and the fact they're fairly high reward, and while I wouldn't cry if they went away, you can be certain the people who live there now will, and that's definitely something to think of before doing any changes.


This is still implying there'll be more to the change than what the OP proposes; keep in mind that the OP has been updated very recently, and he's repeatedly been against any other change than removal of local. Anyhow, as to removing local and making everything requiring probes: it would still depopulate null slightly, but not as severely as when anoms are visible without using probes. If you increase rewards as well, you might get some of the effort/reward guys who moved to hisec, but you probably won't get the FW/WH guys until you increase the rewards enough that the effort/reward squeezes out WH due to the logistical effort it would entail, and I daren't think of how high you would have to go to get FW back.

And that's before we talk about the effect this would have on the economy.


Currently, we have. Most of us said hi to mr l4 agent, mr FW agent, mr WH sleeper or mr hisec manufacturing line etc.

Oh, you mean "adapt" as in "suck it up in nullsec, even though I didn't"?


That might, just maybe, possibly, perhaps be because nullsec has turned into a place where PVP is on or off, and very little jewing is going on. i.e. what you'll bump into is, more often than not, probably going to be a roaming gang, not a bunch of carebears with teeth.

So what's the full list of fixes you'd make, then?


Other playstyles? Such as?

I live in hisec and I log into my nullsec alts to PVP in nullsec.

Try again.


I have moved to hisec, in fact I moved back to hisec 3 years ago, I just routinely log in to my nullsec alts to PVP in nullsec. vOv

Yes what assholes we are for wanting a little more than a 50% bump in income, if we're lucky, for exerting magnitudes more effort.

With or without scannable (i.e. doesn't require probes) anoms?

With or without a dscan which doesn't suck bags of dicks?

1) is debatable. Nullsec alliances have more direct routes to markets, but they have a far larger volume of goods to ship. Lots more fuel, replacing battleship fleets, building super caps. It is an order of magnitude larger. They are both difficult, but for different reasons. And I'm not trying to diminish what goes into wormhole logistics, but if you want to compare it to sov holding alliances, they both take considerable effort and planning to make it work. For another perspective, go check the "new freighter" thread in this subforum to see people arguing that a scouting alt for a freighter is asking a bit much.

2) sounds like you are trying to prove the points me and Lord Zim keep bringing up about increasing effort without increasing reward.

This is a tough one for me, because I make most of my nullsec income doing things on the trade and industrial side. I do rat, but I don't do it to contribute anything serious to my income, and often I'm just cruising the belts in hopes of getting a hauler or faction spawn. So for me, ratting is already more of a gamble than a paycheck.

I do a lot of PI. Enough to pretty much pay for my accounts. And I'm not sure I would keep doing it without local. The t1 industrials I use for picking up from the planets are just too difficult to defend. I could go with T2 haulers or Orcas, but for that kind of training, could just buff up my PI skills and move to lowsec.

I produce a few in-demand items in nullsec and make pretty good isk on that because most of my competition is paying Jita+shipping costs. Now that I have Rorq, no-local probably wouldn't effect the day-to-day of that. I can just jump station to station and largely ignore the gankers. A few months ago, no-local would have been a deal breaker for the same reason it would be for PI; Industrials are pretty much defenseless even with an escort because they can be alpha'ed too easily.

It would also seriously impact the market, which means I would have a harder time selling my stuff. FW already sucked away a lot of my customers because it was easier and paid better than running anoms or probing down complexes or exploration sites. I also get a lot of my lowend minerals from stuff people salvage and hauler spawns (which only spawn in belts). So not only would I have fewer people buying my hulls, mods and ammo, I would have less people out picking up and selling me space garbage.

I'm not sure anything can simply be buffed to compensate for all that. It squeezes my PI income, chokes off my mineral inputs, dampens my market sales. It would turn the player made empire I do business in into wilderness for the sake of wilderness. If I had to replace all that with riskier or d-scan tedious ratting, off the cuff it would need to be triple the current bounties. But I doubt that would really get me doing any more ratting than I currently do because I would just move my PI/trade/industry stuff to empire because I prefer a more stable income. Like Lord Zim, my day-to-day Eve would be in empire, and I would have a combat alt or 2 left in nullsec for when I felt like doing a structure shoot.

That should largely take care of itself, if we were to simply make a couple more resources purely exclusive to null sec, I think.

Like... maybe certain ice products would only be available in null sec, maybe a certain kind of planet (like a new one or two, for example, that produces the remaining products that are currently NPC only), that only shows up in nullsec.

That plus the ores that are already exclusive to null should do a lot to scale rewards more or less automatically, I would think.



If we consider that the lack of safety would apply to EVERYONE, then the supply of those crucial, exclusive resources would plummet, and the prices would correspondingly go way up. And keep going up, until it became profitable enough for people to brave it anyway.

Again, this might require adding additional resources exclusive to nullsec. But as long as there are a few (without which, high end gameplay would be impossible), then people would operate there no matter how unsafe it was.

Also keep in mind that there are plenty of ways that an alliance could socially identify who was entering a system and make it almost as safe as local... but only if you are well organized, disciplined, and clever (not just for free), so I'm not really sure I buy the whole "zomg it would be 0% safe" lines.