Player Features and Ideas Discussion

One of the oldest principle of EvE is that a newer player will never be able to catch up with the older players in skill points but with proper specialization they can compete with them in specific roles. The biggest problem with it is that a totally new player needs months to have decent core skills (and years to have perfect core skills) to fly even 1 specialized ship properly. Before that happens the players usually decide themselfs if they want to stick to the game or not.

From an other approach one of EvE's best quality is all the possibilities what we can do within the sandbox. The problem from a new player's angle is that the skills put huge walls to experience the wide variety of different activities and they are burning out even before having a taste from what EvE is all about.

A solution could be a lot faster training in the early state of the game but that would **** off all the older players by devaluing all the time and effort they spent on their training. And here comes my idea to the picture.



SKILL PACK IMPLANTS

Skill pack implants would make possible to a new player to fly any subcap ship with the proper skills on day 1 and it would make possible to experience a lot more variety of playstyles in the early state of the their game where the only limiting factor is their wallet.

This is how I imagine it:

slot1: ship type requirement skill packs
slot2: weapon system/remote repping skill packs (including the supporting gunnery/missile launcher skills like rapid fire)
slot3: armor/shield tanking skill packs
slot4: ewar/ core competency skill packs
slot5: drone skill packs

The order changeable depending on the attributes (I wasn't checking for an optimal order).
As you can see these implants would replace the attribute implants so if someone want to specialize to a ship they have to sacrifice the bonus what +attribute implants are granting.


Some notes:

- The certificates would be a great example how to set up the skill packs. The price of the specific packs should scale with the skill's levels inside the pack.
- In the ship type's case the minimal requirements would be the cheapest and of course with lvl5 skills would be more expensive.
- The harder to train for a ship the higher skill packs prices are
- No capital ships and t3 ships(for obvious reasons)
- The skill training queue should be independent from the skills inside the packs of course.
- No research/manufacturing/PI skill packs



HOW THIS WOULD MAKE EASIER FOR NEWER PLAYERS TO LIVE IN LOW SEC

Low sec is a harsh place to live for newbies because of the gate guns they can't fly in most cases really cheap ships if they want to pewpew. The most often used ships in low sec are really skill intensive. Skill packs would make it easier to catch up with the vets.


HOW THIS WOULD MAKE EASIER FOR NEWER PLAYERS TO LIVE IN NULL SEC

The easiest way to live in null for a newbie is to joining a huge alliance where they can get enough support to participate in activities and where their losses are reimbursed. That leaded to a self-generating process. If an alliance is more stabil and strong, more newbies they can support. And if more people is joining to that alliance, more strong and stabil they are. It's harder to achieve more intensive growing in smaller entities. The expectations on self-sufficiency is higher because of the limited support and resources.

I think this is one of the most important reasons what leaded to the current situation, where a minority of existing entities are highly dominating the map.

Skill packs would make it easier for new players to achive some kind of self-sufficiency.


Also skill packs would make it easier for alliances to change fleet doctrines more often and this could lead to a more dinamic metagaming.



WAYS TO GET THE IMPLANTS IN THE GAME

Version A: Seeding them in LP stores

Version B: Seeding BPCs in magnetometric and radar sites and seeding the components in ladar and gravimetric sites (some exploration love)


I would like to hear your opinions about this idea!

Around 3 months if you only train all the core skills up to level 5. But you don't need them up to level 5. Often, it is sufficient to stop at level 4 and move on to another core skill... in which case those 3 months are almost cut in half. After everything is at 4 and you have dabbled a bit here or there... you can then begin "perfecting" the "core skills."


Those "walls" are intentional.

They prevent young players from getting "in over their head"... or make it such that if they do "get in over their head" it won't be a catastrophic loss for them... because their skills won't allow them to fly the most specialized, and often expensive, equipment.
This more than anything is the issue as many newbies to EVE Online will try gunning for the biggest, most expensive, and highest tech ship/mods... because they think they are inherently superior... which they both are and are not.

I'll give you an example:
I've recently gotten my RL to join EVE... and he basically thinks the way I outlined above. "Bigger and more expensive is better."
After a week of showing him "the basics" he asked me why I was giving him nothing but "T1 crap." I explained that he had to first learn how to use what he had properly before he risked using stuff that would hurt his wallet. He didn't understand.
So, to prove my point, I bought him a faction fit Navy Omen (no T2 stuff because he can't use it) and I brought out my Incursus. I told him to kill me if he could.
So strong was his belief that the expensive faction-fit Navy Cruiser was superior to my ~10mil ISK T1 frigate that he dove at me... allowing me to get a scram and bring him to the edge of structure.


This is one of those concepts that takes hindsight to realize. I remember being frustrated when I started EVE 3 years ago. Not enough money... not enough skills... "wait... how did they do that?? Why won't they tell me?!?!?!"
I look back now and realize that those things actually helped me in various ways.


There was a skill point boost back when "learning skills" were in the game. When CCP removed the "Learning Skills" they realized that it Veteran pilots would take advantage of this... and hyper specialize their alts in record time (I believe they used a T2 fitted Drake battlecruiser as an example... it would take less than 3 months of training).
So the training boost was removed.


I routinely GCC in low-sec... and I'm mostly running in Frigates and Destroyers (which die to gate/station guns in 1 or two shots). The trick is to engage quickly (see: "gank"), in belts, or let the hostiles engage first.


... what?

What does the "stability" of an alliance have to do with skillpoints?

C DeLeon wrote:
I think this is one of the most important reasons what leaded to the current situation, where a minority of existing entities are highly dominating the map.

Er... no... the reason there are only a few "entities" dominating the map has more to do with their organization and diplomatic skills than anything else. Skill points has nothing to do with this.

Hell... Goonswarm proved this by becoming a major null-sec power by flying wave after wave of ****-fit frigates using low-SP characters into capital fleets... and winning.

C DeLeon wrote:
Also skill packs would make it easier for alliances to change fleet doctrines more often and this could lead to a more dinamic metagaming.

So basically you want people to instantly use FOTM (Fit of the Month) as soon as it comes out? Nah... try being creative and creating new tactics with the skills and ships you have. That's FAR more interesting and dynamic.

Well good for you. You are the exception.
Most of the things I see coming from newbies in Faction Warfare are along the lines of "how do you speed tank?" "How did a frigate kill my battlecruiser?" "Is this fit good?" "And they are usually 6 months to a year old.
I'm pretty sure that many of them, if given the chance, would sell PLEX just to buy your "SP packs" and hop into large battleships thinking that nothing can stop them... even though they obviously don't have a dim understand how things work.

Hell... it me a full YEAR to understand most of the ships, mods, weapons, all of their mechanics, and all of their little nuances... and I'm still learning and a noob about quite a few things.


Numbers are meaningless and stability will not come to any group without clear organization and a goal. Newbies are recruited based on how well that can fall into certain roles within an organization (which is usually along the lines of "tackle," "scout" and "cannon fodder"). That has nothing to do with SP.


Interestingly... those "SP requirements" that corps and alliances have are not necessarily there because they want you to be self sufficient...
they are there because by the time you have XX amount of SP, you have played the game for awhile and know what you are doing (i.e. you don't need to be trained from "scratch"). This can be easily circumvented by hitting up a recruiter for said group and showing him/her that you already have the basic game mechanics down. If you and/or the recruiter are not douches... you are usually accepted.


There are already innumerable amount of activities newbies can engage in to make money and "learn the basics."

Missions. Salvaging. Exploring. Plexes. Anomalies. Faction War. Scamming. Trading. Hauling. Mining. etc.

Creating skill packs to merely purchase will also just breed impatience and new players who don't understand and never really had to wait and make a decision on what skill would be more valuable to train.
I.E do I shoot for cruiser V to move on to HaC or T3 or BS V and move onto capitals. Every little choice you make impacts you and being able to simply buy your way into other ships will just breed impatients and really dilute the game.
FC's will no longer need to think of of the real aspect that not everyone can fly Ship A or Ship B, so they need to cater and customize to the abilities at large. If people can just buy lvl V packs then it will just become
"Ok you guys buy pack A, you pack B and form up."

Essentially it would make your choices matter less.

You'd be taking out initial choices that impact how you play, regret from trying your hand at mining. Wishing you didnt spend so much time on missile skills. It's part of the player experience.

Of course every new player wants to fly something shiny. I remember when I started out and just got into Lvl III missions and then I would fleet up with corp mates they'd bring out their shiny battleships and T2's leaving me in awe of their fire power and I would get excited and want to get into one. Dedicating my que to fly the raven and when I finally finished and my corpies helped me buy one, fit it out and take it out it was so much fun and then it was off to find my next thing to train.
Honestly if I would of just been able to buy my way into almost any ship I probably would of lost interest in the game and quit.

New players aren't meant to be in low and null in the beginning but to gradually move out there. And I don't know if you've ever been with a lot of the major alliances in null.... but ya if i had been in some of them in my first month instead of a calm hisec corp that enjoys helping newbies learn the game. I probably would of left.

Also if we introduce skill packs for everything up to subcaps, then new players who never knew anything else are going to be begging for titan and super skill packs. Because I doubt they are going to develop an understanding of patience to train up to fighter bombers on their own.

another reason why the players who leave in 3 months wont stay even if you give them the skills. They've either had a bad experience with other players (most likely scenario) or really the game just didnt catch their attention. It was a patience issue, the combat could of been to complicated and they prefer a point and shoot, the mechanics too complex to their liking or its not fast paced enough for their liking. I've heard people leave over many things, but never because "my training que takes too long" or "i want to fly a thanny but it will take time so im not, bye!"

But theres another reason putting all that aside why the training que system actually helps to keep players and it has to do with how most all games are made to keep you playing.

Most games are made using a skinner box method and be it real time training leveling or leveling through XP they both operate on the player in the same fundamental ways. The reason why in all games that skills and leveling isnt consistent through out the entire game is to help drag you out playing. It doesn't deter people and make them quit as you think. In the beginning all your skills needed are pretty much x1 maybe x2 So in your first day playing you'll train through maybe 30+ skills. While you're playing and those skills finish you get that little notification that its done and it perks you up it gets you excited for the next one which will lead to another while you're understanding the basics of the game. You log off and log on the next day to see how many new skills have finished training and whats opened up thats new for you to train. Each time a skill finished to train it makes you chemically happy. As you're flushed with new skill finished after new skill you start to distract yourself with other parts of the game moving on from the tutorial. The skill que grows larger but not by much, by your first or second week you should be pretty used to hours between skills and to fill the void between skills you find something new to engage yourself thats immediately gratifying. Shooting rats works. Your wallet lights up every time you pop one and you get a shiny new reward in almost each wreck. and this pattern progresses till a que of 10 or 30 days seems normal and standard and your brain becomes accustomed with the wait. Why else do you think you can sit around station spin and essentially do nothing in game and be strangely content? Besides the social aspect your brain already knows that a new skill will arrive regardless if you play and it will get its happy "fix" eventually
(Though the skinner box is used in more ways then just character leveling obviously :p )

Actually personally that's one of the nicer things about EvE's leveling system that prevents people from being overly addicted to it like most online games. In games like WoW you have to work to level up and your brain knows that and it wants the next level so it will force you to play and play so it can get more and more. In eve your brain is perfectly fine taking a 2 week or more break cause the reward will be just that much more closer when you come back.

So in short removing that initial addiction new players go through would actually be bad.


SCIENCE FOR THE WIN!