Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You seem to be either missing or ignoring the fact that people do not want to do PVE "in groups" when they can do them at their own leisure, with less effort, in hisec. Those that wanted to do PVE "in groups" are, most likely, already in WHs, where the reward warrants the increased effort.


When I want to work together with others, I fleet up to punch someone else in the face. When I want to just make isk, I go to hisec, because it means I can do it at my own time, my own pace, my own leisure, and I'm not really losing out all that much compared to what I'd make in nullsec as it is, let alone what I would have to go through if local wasn't there.

This will make more of the few who are still keeping their isk-making alts in null move them out of there.


We have scouts today having a "legitimate career" (I'm not sure if they get paid or whatever, but we constantly use people who aren't absolute **** at scouting in staging systems, surrounding systems etc), roaming gangs will have more of an issue getting intel because there'll be less people active on a day to day basis in nullsec space, and there will certainly not be a huge influx of new people who want to do nothing but sit cloaked at gates and stare at it for hours at a time or whatever it is you think will be the ~new hot thing~, just so a someone else can make money in a modicum of safety.


The "new tactics" ratters and miners will be adopting is to continue the exodus to hisec, FW or WHs because the effort/reward would be skewed even further into effort land without a increase in rewards to match. Or are you going to try to convince me that nullsec is almost completely devoid of ratters and miners because it is too safe?

Actually, you're right in one aspect, there won't be any "truly devastating changes to null or low", since the only thing which'll happen is that there'll be slightly less people active than there is today. There won't be any "better reasons to work and coordinate together", however, because fleets already use scouts, and all PVE will be best left to hisec or WHs. Hisec because it's literally no effort expended to keep safe apart from "oh dear I have to fit a tank" and hauling either ore to the nearest refinery or just your own putrid carcass to the agent, and WHs because at least there the rewards match the increased effort you would have to expend. And it'd be safer.

>>>>PvE pilots are not unfortunates here, any more than before. In fact, with good planning and preparation, they could get more out of the game with this.

The ability to operate solo, if I go by the context you present, is something more challenging in null security. I agree, and go further to say null sec is designed to encourage cooperation by raising the bar to reward it more readily, if not require it for survival.
I do appreciate they may not fly directly with other pilots, but if they at least have other players in the same corporation to coordinate with, they won't be completely solo.

>>>>You seem determined to operate solo, or at least without typical formal ties like corporate membership with other players working together. At least it sounds like you are indicating a desire to not rely on other players.
You know this game is expected to be more difficult playing solo. I only point this out since you raised the point of how a solo pilot would experience challenges.

I appreciate that you believe this. I however believe it will create more opportunities for players, and the challenge will be one many can rise to meet.

>>>>I must say we disagree on this aspect.

I see scouting actually becoming a legitimate career, rather than sending random pilots to watch local somewhere.
I see roaming gangs relying more on intel channels to know what general areas to look in, and finding targets for different reasons with possibly less difficulty. (Intel that takes effort creates opportunities for failure of such, inattentive players will find Null more challenging)

Here again you state you believe that fewer people will be active in nullsec space. This is your opinion, albeit one I am sure some others might echo. Myself, and other like minded, believe it will not harm nullsec population.
I do think it is possible different players may choose null, as no doubt some share your views that null is not possible without Local Chat providing a sense of security.
I believe others will fill this void, PvP and PvE both. The challenge is something that they may find providing depth and allure, previously found lacking by their views.
I think this will have secondary ripple changes, creating opportunities in null previously not appropriate.

>>>>I see ratters and miners adopting new tactics in response to how the changes create new ways to defend themselves. I see cooperative defense fleets acting as deterrents to those seeking to hunt them. I believe the biggest change for them will be more of a pack attitude, with safety in numbers becoming a bigger factor.

Rather pessimistic.

I think with new challenges placed by the effort required to gather intel, rewards will be easier to obtain.
Miners will find ore less fought over, assuming other miners flee for the imagined safety of other areas.

Quite simply, we do not know what will happen. I, however, do not see pilots clinging to the easy intel gleaned from chat rosters. I think they are forced to use this intel by default, as they need to compete with other pilots who also use it.
I think AFK Cloaking is a response to this intel.
I think Hot Dropping happens quite often due specifically to this intel leaving few options, since it allows combat to be avoided too perfectly.

You see it differently.

I'm cherry picking bits here so you will have to excuse me.....

As for population decrease speaking from a personal prespective I never left (or the other 12 people I knew who left 0.0 recently) because I could make money with less hassle in high-sec/FW it was because 0.0 is just plain boring at the moment.
Also I don't really think players (again speaking personally) choose to move to high-sec,FW because of safety fears I think its more about speed.

I made in FW (an abberation I know) in one week what it would have taken me a month in 0.0, like the last couple of weeks doing lvl 5's on my jack (just fo rsomething to do) now doing this in a carrier is risky alot more risky than running sanctums in 0.0 but why am I doing it? Obviously not because it's safer but because I can make more isk more rapidly.

As I've said many times, remove local, make all sites in 0.0 have to be scanned out so like in level 5's you are constantly checking d-scan for those pesky probes. Christ there are areas of 0.0 you could rat in for days at a time without seeing anybody but as usual instead of just making areas/goodies random CCP have concentrated certain systems so literally all the ratters are usually found in or around these -1 systems.

For me local just gives stupid people a pass into 0.0 and the ability to with relative safety suckle at the isk teet for extended periods of time.

Although even if they (CCP) were thinking of it they would really need to investigate/plan it well with all the tools needed to counteract it ready to go and not the usual CCP numbnuts way of dealing with stuff.

I believe we have defined our views adequately.

You believe the level of challenge will prove more than the reward is worth, resulting in population loss as pilots seek a more comfortable balance in high sec.

I believe the sameness and simplified intel have combined to bore many of the more capable pilots. Some left the game, some went to wormholes, others settled for the circumstances due to reasons beyond this discussion.
I believe we will recover at least some of these pilots back into null and low, since high and WH are unlikely to be impacted meaningfully by suggested changes.

As to AFK Cloaking and hot dropping, those are handled in greater depth in other threads. Noone agrees on causes or solutions in these, so expecting that here is folly.

I look forward to more direct testing of our theories, at some future point.

While I certainly respect Lord Zim's view, I am sure he will understand that I hope my own view proves correct.

Not losing your ship isn't a reward. Negative reinforcement isn't reward. No one is rewarded for running away. At best the keep the status quo. At worst, which is most of the time, their income stream gets cut off. That is why afk cloaking is so effective. It is an easy way to hurt people by denying them (making them deny themselves) the fruits of their space.

Delayed local will tip those scales from being denied income to regularly losing assets. And as usual, no one is discussing how to rebalance that scale because very few of the people suggesting these changes actually do any variety of activities in nullsec or even live in nullsec at all.

The quoted numbers on the population of w-space and the lack of PvP that takes place their should be damning enough. The word of long time nullsec dwellers that have watched their fellow alliance members take off for greener pastures should also be enough.

Pilots who have grown frustrated at the level of challenge.

There is an artificial ceiling blocking activities beyond a certain point.
It limits activities offensively and defensively.

You cannot do anything with deceptive intelligence, beyond AFK Cloaking, because Local Chat provides absolute presence awareness in the system.
This means you cannot hide a fleet, by taking it beyond sensor range in a bigger system. Anybody who enters the system at any location instantly sees all the pilots neatly listed. Yes, hot-dropping evolved in an attempt to restore leverage in numbers for this, but it relies on pilot's disregarding that available intel to even have a chance. It effectively just brings the warp gate to the target, with the fleet waiting on the other side.
It means you cannot hide a miner or ratter in a system, specifically where D-Scan could not reach them from a gate. (These systems exist, but when local shows you present to be hunted, you need to hide since they now know you are their to be found)
This means you cannot actually hunt with a covert craft, even knowing you have reduced combat ability. They know the moment you enter the system, simply by watching the roster of Local.
Covert pilots, not just the hot-drop fleet surrogates, have been blocked from being hunted too, which diminishes their game experience. Cloaking almost literally put's their game on pause, as noone can find them, and alert pilots know they are present to be avoided.

Pilots who are frustrated with these, knowing they are no longer obstacles, are likely to be interested in learning if the game shifted to become interesting.
Everyone has different tastes, and there are pilots who want the stabilizers / training wheels removed.

And they do this because they weigh losing their PvE ship verse what exactly? The reinforcement of staying and shooting rats isn't enough to make them stay put. And we already know that without local people will just spam d-scan and do the same running away when something shows up.

That sort of behavior is very utilitarian, and removing local is not going to change that unless you put your finger on the other side of the scale and make those rats so highly valuable that people will risk losing their PvE ship for another minute of ratting.

I actually had this sort of situation yesterday. I had a rat wreck with 300mil isk in loot and neutrals showed up in local. That was enough to get me to undock and risk losing the wreck and my ship. If undocking and shooting red crosses meant I would always get 300mil out of it, I wouldn't be so quick to run away from any random neutral. But the reality is that is gets me around 50mil an hour. Meaning I would need 2 solid hours of ratting to replace my PvE battlecruiser.

And if we really want to get into the nuts and bolts of stimulus and response, what do you think would be the response when no-local means getting the stimulus of losing your PvE ship at a much higher frequency. This is the reason people advocate for the removal of local after all, to kill more ratting ships and other soft targets. If they want typical nullsec fleet fights they can already get that by reinforcing a tower or dropping SBUs.

CCP just had to deal with this exact same issue with lowsec. People didn't want to go their because the high amount of casual PvP'ers killed everything they could. The general Eve population then became conditioned to just avoid lowsec at all cost. They ended up revamping Faction Warfare to the point that it would pay better than nullsec ratting and could be done with way cheap ships.

If I could make 50mil an hour in a speed tanking frigate, or 300mil an hour in a well fit BC, I could probably live without local. But no one is offering FW levels of income. They are just advocating that local goes, I stay put and die quickly, and end up with a balance sheet in the red all so they can feel good about their lame PvP skills. No thanks. I'll take my industry, market orders and isk making ships to greener pastures. I'll keep my fleet guy behind because nullsec fleet fights would still be a thing. Probably do some really narrow industry for what is left of the market, and just use my cap ship to jump past all the hungry gankers roaming the otherwise unusable space.

That is a good question.

Since you guys aren't going to be ganking much in the way of ratters, outside of a few complex runners, what is it that these covops ships are supposed to hunt? Complex runners will do the same as the wormhole guys and bug out as soon as d-scan shows probes. You don't need a fully hidden covops to sneak up on mining/ratting/strategic POSs.

What do you guys really expect to hunt or hide your fleets from? Especially since jump drives/bridges already give you the ability to hide hide your fleet in a completely difference region.



I find it kind of funny that a Mordus Angels guy would want this. Their space is within jump range of Lonetrek lowsec and could get easily over run. Hell, they themselves would probably move everything out and just jump into Mordus NPC space on the weekends for the PvP free for all.

A true large fleet will be well organized and likely sitting on a titan in a far off and well secured system. That 1 minute will only benefit the cyno ship, and a single guy in frigate doesn't need much time to get organized before finding a target.

i am disappoint in you.

you keep preaching about living in your space, yet 80% of your claimed systems never see a ship for days at a time.

i get it, you cant Truly live in your space till CCP gets off there asses and gets "farms and fields" and "small holdings"
but you cant have ether one of these so long as every scrub can fly by check local and know if your there.

so i think your missing the point here a few of you have it, allot of you are still stuck up on your ISK/H ratio.


nulls broken, locals just one of the many, but to say locals FINE the way it is is just crazy.