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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Tex Steele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1141 - 2011-10-20 20:50:10 UTC
So some of this is to go along with DUST 514. Interesting. I don't play DUST, don't have a game console, and never will. I play EVE Online. I don't care about DUST or anything to do with it. So why do I care? and why is CCP changing EVEOnline for something to do with DUST?

This seems like a move to push people into big alliances who can afford to run the things in 0.0 and defend them. Maybe a push to punish industrialists and push them to PVP, also. I have only been playing for about 15 months, and I can tell you that I have lost more ships in PVP and to gankers than I care to think about. IN a PVP world, the noobs are at a severe disadvantage to a toon that is 4 or 5 years old. His only chance of survival is either to join some mega corp or not play. I would happily do lots of industrial things which are an important part of the EVE universe - somebody must supply ammo and mods and POS fuel, after all. Because of the constant PVP crap happening, it is extremely difficult to play the game on one's own terms and not the ONE way CCP seems to desire everyone to play.

I do not like this change. I think it will simply cause more problems than it is worth.

IF CCP wants to fix PI, how about fixing that stupid PI ship that looks like a Noctis? It has a command center bay of 4000 m3, and will only hold command centers, which are 2500m3. That math doesn't work - it wastes 1500 m3 of space where nothing else can fit. The other bays are too small to use the ship for running planets in a production line, as well. That was a bust, and could be corrected to make the game a "better experience". I am a programmer in RL, and I see bugs all over the place that they could fix instead.

This change seems to favor only the big mega-alliances and punishes the little guy just trying to enjoy himself.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1142 - 2011-10-20 21:02:01 UTC
The reason that this feature change is fundamentally positive and needed, is because colonies need to be able to be contested.

Allowing both EVE and DUST players to contest colony/ planet ownership is in keeping with EVE Online's best design principles.

A design mechanic that condenses individualized Player Colonies to Corporate Owned/ Controlled Custom's Offices is a positive development creating a relational need between PI operator (independent or otherwise) and a given Corporation. And without placing corporations in direct control of colonies - very smart imo.

At present the specific design details are what are at issue, and where they are to be applied, not the fundamentals of the feature itself; because DUST 514, like it or not, is simply the mechanism to allow for the destruction of colonies, and the players it will attract will be the only ones who can make that possible.

Ultimately, it is good for our community that CCP grows and develops as a company... with the input of us, their share holders. Therefore I support DUST 514...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Flamehaired Death
Doomheim
#1143 - 2011-10-20 21:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Flamehaired Death
sounds great.

except the part where you wipe out all large scale PI outside hi sec at once.

I think simply marking CONCORD destructible would be better move. Any alliance that wants to own can remove CONCORD offices in a couple days. LOL - any unprotected offices, CONCORD or private, will disappear fast enough in a few months. A key advantage is for players to realize requirements of how to attack or defend a custom office while still protecting crucial POS. LOL - could be huge recruiting drive from null sec.

Consider only PI mines materials and makes the parts for custom offices (plus POS and some T3 mats).

Consider with only hi sec making PI, the prices of PI stuff shoot through the roof (5-100 times now), especially POS fuel. Worse prices make all cargo ships docking at custom offices extremely worth ganking...even in hi sec. Consider ganked cargo is often destroyed. See higher prices and endless cycle of more ganking-price increases. I can see regular small fleet battles becoming a regular hi sec feature.

Plus custom offices will be additional, softer targets for alliances and corps to protect. *** Custom Offices don't seem to have any self-defense weapons*** Targets that by themselves are currently not considered worth losing many ships over, especially if you got POS(es) to protect nearby. Thus only the hard to reach heart of the larger alliances are likely to see a profusion of replacement custom offices in the near future. Border systems will likely prove too vulnerable to multiple diversionary raids to afford constant replacement custom offices. Only the largest WH corps will risk custom offices as destroying custom offices will make for good sized raid fleets willing to leave alt to probe return wh in 24 hours or so.

This seems to be a potential tipping point conflict where the outcomes can easily go several drastically different directions due to entanglement and mutual dependence of several crucial factors.


One of which is where limited orbital PI launches may become the norm for null sec, lo sec and especially smaller WH. And as a simultaneous result, hi sec PI is constantly ganked out of business at shipping time or incurs significant fleet battles for each shipment. And as an eventual result POSes starve for fuel and get ganked out of widespread use. Finally without easily available, widespread POSes, null sec and wh could return to sparse use as mainly for ratting and sleepers.

Of course the other main direction is that everyone cooperates in reestablishing custom offices everywhere before going to full scale war and even then things remain stable. But maybe the GOONs own all PI and are the bosses of EVE -- ROFLMAO (becasue people didn't think they would try the ice embargo thing either a month ago).

Perhaps Custom Offices should at least be given ability to run a handful of ordinary sentry drones as self-defense towers. Won't make any difference versus a fleet but it might provide some initial anti-gank and prevent easy false alarms from passing frigates (assuming you can see drone status).
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1144 - 2011-10-20 22:25:33 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
If you're still reading this CCP...


Yes, still reading! I am also compiling a list of issues and concerns that you voiced in this thread. Really glad to see all the opinions, ideas and deep thoughts presented here, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Holy One
Privat Party
#1145 - 2011-10-20 22:31:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Holy One
Andy Landen wrote:
We all know the prices will go up, the taxes will go up, the ability to get product out will go down, cost of control will go up, and the risk of ships will go up.
Prices up = good for PI guys, bad for pos guys and indy guys. Demand falls of course. Pos's are retired being unprofitable.
Taxes up = good for Control guys, bad for PI guys. There goes PI profit.
Product logistics = risky to non-existant, bad for PI guys. Barring any other problem, if product is stuck, it is worthless.
Cost of control/ships = high. Bad for PI. Even if the fight for PI is worth it (high prices), the taxes are low, and the logistics is free, the cost of losing ships and buying the PI control center easily and quickly removes all profitability.
Let alone the effect on demand for retired POS's with higher fuel prices and for other indy activities.

If CCP can limit the maximum tax rate, prevent PI logistics disruption, and increase the amount of product the colonies can process and extract, this might work OK. Increases the product per colony will actually allow people to care (more ISK) enough to fight over it while helping reduce product cost so that the infrastructure which uses it doesn't collapse. If CCP wants more fighting over PI, increase the 0.0 yield and processing ability while decreasing HS product yield. Don't do anything else.


All true but increasing the product per colony just makes it more of a time sink. Haulers don't hold enough to make exporting/importing something I could do in a reasonable amount of time. As much as I enjoy PI/mfg (lol), I don't want to pay money to do tens of hrs of it every week. Frankly, I'd rather join the gym or spend my time sticking needles in my eyes or something ..

Also the risk/isk just doesn't make sense. Missions are risk free. Incursions are more or less risk free. The isk from those is way higher per hr than PI ever will be ..

The whole point of PI is passive/casual income for people who have lives and jobs etc. Whilst I can understand that changing, I don't understand forcing all the very many pre-exhisting entrepreneurs and industrial contributors out of low sec and trying to replace them with, err, nobody. That's just ********.

:)
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
#1146 - 2011-10-20 22:39:36 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
If you're still reading this CCP...


Yes, still reading! I am also compiling a list of issues and concerns that you voiced in this thread. Really glad to see all the opinions, ideas and deep thoughts presented here, thank you.


as a mid sized t2 producer(60 concurent t2 build slots, etc etc) i thought id add my view.

ive already started reducing my manufaturing structures, decomissioning 2 large towers, the cost now is not made up by the speed increase of production. im now moving to an station where i can outbuild any of the local compertion and basicly save about 13mil/day on my production costs.
the reason why im doing this is very clear to me as it should be to you at ccp, the increased costs of pi in the production chain will stop me bothering with all production soon, if the cost of pi products continues to rise. it simply will not be worth my time. as it currently stands, it would already be better for me to go run incursions and drop 4 of my accounts.(the same plan i have if you move t2 production to 0.0)

i guess i could reduce my production cost and work on the mentality ' the pi products i make myself are free' but pi is boring, this change makes it more boring, yay structures to move build and shoot, cos the game needs more of them right.

pi needs reworking before you do this, a minor routing volume increase is not the rework it needs. please stop trying to apply a bandaid to a mains water leak, it simpley dosnt work, ask teh 20% of your co workers that just got canned due to the short sightedness of ccp's dev's in the past.
Budsin Adar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1147 - 2011-10-20 23:05:54 UTC
Like what is it we have to scrap?? the POS or the planetary stuff?? CCP I hope this can be made clear also I still have no use to see what my ship is doing other than what i know Butif its missiles guns lasers I have no clue even drones showing up on there viewe point or having to reset the station stuff or when undocked is making alot of unhappy campers from others i chat with in local better fix that soon this update screwed it up. Now as to why? Yuour Hamsters died get guinea PIgs lol Evil
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1148 - 2011-10-20 23:12:15 UTC
Well, CCP Phantom, if you're still seeing this, please have them keep in mind initial accessibility of these things, especially in systems where access will be quite difficult, such as wormholes. We'll need ten in our hole, the initial costs will be prohibitive (admit it... the first ones out there will cost a small fortune and be hard to come by) and getting them to the holes will be a massive PITA. We don't have access to Concord or FW LP in here so we're dependent on the "kindness" of others putting the BPCs on the market. Plus, with tens of thousands of customs offices slated to go poof... well, supply will lag significantly behind demand.

Unless, of course, prior to production the Eve universe is initally seeded with these at a decent price... enough to get them out there quickly. As they become established, you can reduce NPC supply and shift over to construction as the means to replenish them.

But the whole 'cold turkey' idea... man, that's brutal and punishing. NOT feeling any love there.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1149 - 2011-10-20 23:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
CCP Phantom wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
If you're still reading this CCP...


Yes, still reading! I am also compiling a list of issues and concerns that you voiced in this thread. Really glad to see all the opinions, ideas and deep thoughts presented here, thank you.



As EVE Online's resident Economist stated: The EVE Community is the greatest super computer in the world.

I think I can speak for everyone, when I say thank you for responding to us, and being amenable to addressing legitimate concerns and points.

Is there any chance in the near future that we might be updated on what iteration changes of the POCO feature are up for discussion within Team Pi?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
oldmanst4r
oldmanst4r's Corporation
#1150 - 2011-10-20 23:26:50 UTC
Cool, maybe by the time Dust 514 comes out people might actually care about fighting over planets.
Bertha Jones
Vherokior Logistics Group
#1151 - 2011-10-20 23:26:57 UTC
I understand the idea of POCO in zero security space. Cool.

Can the profits in the low security space be reduced compared to zero security space? This would make setting up POCO for high security players more reachable and encourage movement to low security space. This also would encourage low security players to move to zero security space in search of higher profits.
Metal mettle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1152 - 2011-10-20 23:36:16 UTC
Seems that CCP will do anything to keep players from plexing accounts.

The change will not be used to bring in isk by taxing others.
They will be used to create monoply of PI and prevent anyone in the area from having any planets.
They will make way more isk by selling that PI at massive cost.
This will make POS ownership nearly impossible to all but the largest corps.
Then with the loss of so many POSes the economy will go crazy. Less isk for people to buy plex.

WH space, PI becomes impossible,
I have seen so many "because i can" actions. Groups of poeple will have just a few ships, and will be able to destroy the customs office. whs links last 24 hours, but bring along a single core scanner, and you get an exit.
While you wait, do sites.
Then log out, next day, kill the station, They do it cause they can, and they know how much it sets you back.
It will cost billions to set up inside whs, so PI then is worthless, unprofitable.
Combined with DUST, not only will the customs office be killed, but the colony itself, can be destroyed.
More lost isk, less money to buy plex.
It will also cost a billion or so (depending on number of planets)to buy, build, and set up, the customs offices.
only to have someone destroy them, for the fun of it.
Making import impossible, and making it non-profitable.

they already changed PI massivly once. They removed so much profitablity from what it was before.
They made extraction control units that take up 2600 power. It does nothing, gives nothing.
Then you have to use the extraction heads, taking up more power.
Now you can't set up complex chains on one planet. And you can't produce as much as before.
And they want to do it again. Its gonna make a basic supply chain of this game, become to incombersome to do.
The economy change is gonna upset alot.
However, the loss of isk, means if people want to play, they have to pay cash.

Wh space has already lost isk, when they made the sites, harder, drop less, and produce less nano ribbons.
Missions are made harder, longer, and drop less profitable items. Making less isk, you now have to pay cash to play.

Only the few that make the materials and BPCs and arrays will make anything from this change. And they are already the ones that run the game, as the few that own all the BPOs.
Then, just like hulkageddon, they will start a new game, killing the customs offices, because they can make massive isk selling the items at massive over cost. This makes PI and POSes only more expensive to run. and thus, no plexing accounts.

CCP's plans on AUR were shot down by the players.
That was going to give them much more cash, from players buying plex, or make plex way more expensive and more people have to by game time with cash.
Now they are doing what they can, to get back to that plan.
They have spent so much time programming an avatar creator, and captains quarters, rather then actually working on what the players want. And they have also spent so much time fixing all the issues they create with their changes.
This is a space flight sim. Not face book, not a chat room, not a 1st/3rd person shooter. Play WOW, or halo, or join face book, if thats what you want. Otherwise, we want a space flight sim.

Its hard enough to get ahead in this game, damn near impossible when CCP keeps changing the rules.
Seems that CCP greed is causing them to change the game, to make it harder to use isk to plex game time.
I love this game, and its hard to see so many changes, that upset game flow.
Hearing that they want to move ice to low sec, is just one more way of taking isk from us.
making POSes to expensive for anyone not in a large corp alliance.
And once its all large (super corp) there will be no one left to pick on.
And no more, "cause i can" cause no one to pick on.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1153 - 2011-10-20 23:53:15 UTC
Metal mettle wrote:

This is a space flight sim.



No you didn't.... Oops

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1154 - 2011-10-20 23:55:05 UTC
Spanking Monkeys wrote:
i guess i could reduce my production cost and work on the mentality ' the pi products i make myself are free' but pi is boring, this change makes it more boring, yay structures to move build and shoot, cos the game needs more of them right.


Why not factor in the increased costs when you place your sell orders and make more money? Not that I'm complaining - you giving up means what I produce goes up in value.
Red Zaya
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1155 - 2011-10-20 23:56:02 UTC
The idea first sounds good but ... is not. Some people should go back to university Twisted

Who will be able to put, and defend, POCOs in low and nul sec ? Big blobs will do it easy of course, but small corporations or alliance will have no chance to succeed.

So, after controlling most of non NPC null sec, large alliances will be able to put POCOs were they want and kick smaller one back to high sec ... GREAT Evil ... after this they just have to put 100 % fees to anybody except themselves and they will be able to dictate prices to the market. Ooooooh, small entities having a POS anywhere will be sooooooo happy when they'll have to pay Coolant unit 18,000 ISK Lol

No one needs to have spent years at Harvard to predict that. Anybody who drove a car for more than 10 years can understand what happens when there is a lack of regulation and when fuel production belongs to less companies ... Roll ... dropping competion means rising prices and that's exactly what will happen there.

This will NOT bring more fights or people renting new mercenary corporations to protect their POCOs. This is just a free ISK blank check for big blocks.

So CCP if the purpose is to be kind with them after nerfing their hords of titans and SC just say it Big smile, dont talk about gameplay this is hypocrit speech. Else, just remember that who controls resource access controls prices. And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...

Holy One
Privat Party
#1156 - 2011-10-21 00:11:58 UTC
Red Zaya wrote:
And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...



... and a few k less subscriptions than before you started.

:)
Circumstantial Evidence
#1157 - 2011-10-21 00:13:36 UTC
POS fuel items have nearly doubled in anticipation and speculation of shortages. Risk will go up, and so will Reward.

Once the new PI overlords establish themselves, I think they will prefer this new AFK isk stream, over locking out the opposition. Perhaps medium gangs and lone super pilots will enjoy tipping over the equivalent of a small POS at each planet in a solar system. But will they come back to finish the job? Reinforce timers are public, and many people like to see a good fight.

Paying a 10x higher tax (for example) to lowsec overlords may seem off-putting with mech parts at 7,000 isk. How about at 21,000? Tax per m3 remains the same.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1158 - 2011-10-21 00:20:20 UTC
Red Zaya wrote:
dropping competion means rising prices and that's exactly what will happen there....

... This is just a free ISK blank check for big blocks.



A serious concern that arises from CCP Omen's initial posts in this thread is the idea that CCP's approach will be to adjust the internal benchmark price of commodities to compensate for any inflation.

This is a mistake. And should never be a fall back position - it should only ever be a fail safe, to be used in the most necessary of circumstances. And will only lend itself to producing more /tinfoil_hats in the community.

Laissze Faire --- the economy will work so long as your feature fits the economy, not the other way around.

I would argue that the real test of whether or not if the feature can stand on its own, and is ready for release, is the realization that the internal benchmark price of commodities will not need to be adjusted downward to ward off inflationary tendencies...

Otherwise it is not ready for release.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1159 - 2011-10-21 00:21:48 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

Agreed... and something I've been saying myself.

What thoughts do you have regarding any searchability functions? Tough shat? or needs some element add even to simply know if there are any POCO's in the system in the first place and which planets they are on given the Remote Sensing skill we already have?

Imo since POCO's are tied to planets they absolutely should show, at least genericly, as a filter on the Planet tab in the MAP.

Thoughts?


OH yes, I agree that it would make sense to be able to find out remotely if there was already a CO in place, and what the tax rate would be. I think the justification of "I like the exploration aspect of going and finding out" is just lazy programmer-speak for "It would be pretty hard to implement". :)

I'm fluent in lazy programmer-speak :)


The side-issue is that if you can see where all the POCOs are, then you have a list of targets to destroy. Since they have no defenses (instead of being setup like a POS tower), being able to find them remotely so easily is going to put big target marks on them.

They *do* need to be visible in the S&I window, and searchable - but I feel that the ownership details need to be hidden, and possibly you are only allowed to see POCOs which you can currently use. That would require spying where you slip someone into the corp/alliance in order to find out where there POCOs are, or you slip into the system and use d-scan to figure out which planets have POCOs and go to them to see who owns what POCO.
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1160 - 2011-10-21 00:27:59 UTC
Arra Lith wrote:
Players Customs Offices are great, but CCP needs to add some protection against griefing.

Some group just want to screw someone else and decides to mount a gang and kill all COs in region. Few caps or bunch of BS can reinforce all COs in region in few hours (will take around minute per CO). Next day it will be impossible for defenders to defend all of them, so around 50-80% will get killed.

To attack CO it should require attacking side to first deploy their own Gantry to start "siege" working one. Anchoring and onlining time should be like 30 mins total - enough to alert some defenders so we can have battle, and short enough to not make attackers bored.
After working Customs Office is destroyed attackers can activate their own, which they used to start sieging process. Or if they want they can unanchor it.

That means griefing will be much harder (but not impossible), but if you want fight for control over planet it will change nothing, as you need your own Customs Office anyway.


Suggestion

1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.

2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.

3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)

4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.

5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode.
5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.

6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2);
or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).

--edit--
There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable).


Kinda surprised this didn't get more attention since it seems like the best solution in this whole thread...

in HS nothing changes
in LS still need to bring along a gantry if you wanna blow them up
in null same but add a sov check (will be ignored in NPC space)
in WH operates the same as LS since there is no sov

once you anchor a gantry to kill the invul on a current office, both are vulnerable, but once the office is dead, you should be able to easily UN-anchor your gantry and go pop the next one if you really are out to remove the current owners.

not sure if this mechanic and the reinforcement timer isn't overkill, but as one who'd like to keep his offices intact I'd like to see both mechanics used.

This puts the CO in the players hands, it increases vulnerability since they can be blown up, but removes the "ohh an undefended target, let's shoot it for lol's" motive

A couple other tidbits I'd like to see answered:
* will they generate a KM? I know they won't drop anything, but no KM = no KB padding nonsense
* how about a couple of station turrets that are part of the deployment? (exactly like LS stations) enough to deter flybys, but not stop determined folks

Also, the removal of all LS/Null/WH offices on day one now seems to be the chief concern, while I always thought it was game-immersion breaking to have PI in WH ever, this seems like a good kludge, I know the BPC will be available via concord and the FW corps, but that still means that the logistics of getting them out to the corners of 0.0/WH is going to take awhile (weeks-months) depending on market prices. it would be nice to hear your thoughts on this apart from the note that said "we told you the parts needed so you could stock up" response.