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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

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Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1401 - 2012-11-19 10:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rordan D'Kherr
Looks like this thread is over.

I hardly can see any new real arguments.

Or any new dudes who are willing to join the "discussion".

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1402 - 2012-11-19 10:18:39 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Less than WHs

Nope.

Mirima Thurander wrote:
more than now.

Yep.

Mirima Thurander wrote:
For my idea.

It's terrible.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#1403 - 2012-11-19 10:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Actually null has had so many fixes over the years

And by "fixes" you mean "nerfs".

Ok lets call it resources spent altering

Lord Zim wrote:

I'm pretty certain that outside of a few tweaks to curb such things as hulk ganking (I say curb, not try to completely destroy, but thankfully pubbies are dumb and still fit for max yield instead of putting tank on vOv), hisec itself hasn't needed that many changes. They're okay, I guess, but not needed.

Lowsec and nullsec, on the other hand, have been screaming harder and harder about fixes which, quite frankly, are required. Lowsec has had some changes to FW, but in true CCP fashion they completely ignored all feedback about how broken it was, until we exposed just how broken it actually was, and I'm not sure they've fixed the systems properly yet. I could be wrong, since I don't do FW, but whatevs.

Nullsec, however, needs a sov system which doesn't suck bags of dicks, it needs an industry which doesn't suck dicks, it needs reasons to stop going to hisec for your every need etc etc etc.

Have you ever done mission running, 1 hour in and you want to hang your self from the repeated missions, it is complete crap and needs about 4 times as many missions as it has now. As Hi-sec is home to the majority of the player base the majority of resource time should be spent there.
As to lo-sec well it has had its spin and in true CCP fasion I am sure they will fix it a bit but most of it will now remain as is for years. As to Null it really needs to be more vibrant and have the system upgrade actually tied to player activity not just isk. The sov will take a complete over haul to fix into something better and fairer for smaller alliances as they broke the system with tech moons the system needs to rely more on players and less on isk.

But again the sov system needs a complete overhaul and this is a lot of resources for a part of space with 20% of the population.

At least with luck they will not 'fix' wormoles.

You only believe it would be harder as you have had free intel for so long.[/quote]
Lord Zim wrote:
Under your system, how much time would you have to react to impending ganks, and how much effort would you have to expend to avoid it?

Yes you would have to pay attention to live in Outlaw space. If you want safer you should be in Hi-sec. So it would not be harder but wold require you to pay attention to your surroundings and hell the price of Null minerals would probably go up.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1404 - 2012-11-19 10:22:45 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok lets call it resources spent altering

The time spent on those alterations were pretty miniscule, just saying.

Frying Doom wrote:
Yes you would have to pay attention to live in Outlaw space. If you want safer you should be in Hi-sec. So it would not be harder but wold require you to pay attention to your surroundings and hell the price of Null minerals would probably go up.

Um, you have to pay attention today. If you don't pay attention today, you will get ganked, unlike in hisec where you only really have to pay attention when you've either pissed someone off, or carry something expensive.

Try sitting on a gate in nullsec in an ibis, then try the same trick in lowsec and hisec. Let's see where you last the longest when hostiles pass through.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1405 - 2012-11-19 10:28:08 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:



I think it has been well established that we have plenty of combat going on. Nullsec has more combat that those empty looking wormholes.


U have blob fights and the hot drop ganks.


Yes we do. That is the sort of combat we expect out here and many of us sign up and train to do exactly that sort of thing. We think it is fun. You think it is crap. CCP gave you a place (wormholes) that is virtually immune to blobs and hotdrops. Go to your wormhole, make oodles of isk, and be happy.

We ain't begging CCP to let us drop supers and SBUs in your wormhole, quit trying to make our space empire into lonely boring wormholes.

So you just want it left lonely and boring like now huh Lol


Many of us, the guys that actually live in nullsec, have argued that the way to get more people to hang out in nullsec is to provide more things for them to do that pay well enough to deal with the liabilities that come with living in nullsec. Better industry, easier access to minerals, PI style moon mining, anything that rewards individuals for undocking and doing stuff in space.

All the arguments for removing local center on just making it more appealing to covops cloaked gankers. And by making them so over powered, they'll flat out over hunt any other nullsec players until there is nothing left but covops gangs unknowingly passing each other by, and moon mining towers still defended by supers and blobs.
Frying Doom
#1406 - 2012-11-19 10:28:09 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Um, you have to pay attention today. If you don't pay attention today, you will get ganked, unlike in hisec where you only really have to pay attention when you've either pissed someone off, or carry something expensive.

Or mining Ice, or just mining or in a pod or for that matter any time as people some times kill you for a laugh.

Yes you pay less attention in Hi-sec when traveling, that would probably explain why the rats bounties are lower, why you cannot moon mine, build supers or outposts and so many other things it is less dangerous as you can do less in it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1407 - 2012-11-19 10:35:53 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Or mining Ice

Fit a DCII. Problem solved.

Frying Doom wrote:
or just mining

Fit a DCII. Problem solved.

Frying Doom wrote:
or in a pod

Have you seen the amount of 2b+ pods out there?

Frying Doom wrote:
or for that matter any time as people some times kill you for a laugh.

Well duh, it's high security, not perfect security.

Seriously, do the experiment I told you to. Chances are the first hostile that passes by in nullsec will shoot you, you'll probably be sitting for a while in lowsec (unless your first lowsec guy is -10 or someone on the way to becoming -10), and in hisec I suspect you'll sit until the cows come home.

I mean, I've had a freighter full of PI stuff sitting at a planet for hours, and it's still there when I come back, with how much whining there is these days you would've thought the instant you undock in one you go boom.

Frying Doom wrote:
Yes you pay less attention in Hi-sec when traveling, that would probably explain why the rats bounties are lower, why you cannot moon mine, build supers or outposts and so many other things it is less dangerous as you can do less in it.

Pity the payouts aren't scaled to match in comparison with nullsec, then.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#1408 - 2012-11-19 10:35:57 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:



I think it has been well established that we have plenty of combat going on. Nullsec has more combat that those empty looking wormholes.


U have blob fights and the hot drop ganks.


Yes we do. That is the sort of combat we expect out here and many of us sign up and train to do exactly that sort of thing. We think it is fun. You think it is crap. CCP gave you a place (wormholes) that is virtually immune to blobs and hotdrops. Go to your wormhole, make oodles of isk, and be happy.

We ain't begging CCP to let us drop supers and SBUs in your wormhole, quit trying to make our space empire into lonely boring wormholes.

So you just want it left lonely and boring like now huh Lol


Many of us, the guys that actually live in nullsec, have argued that the way to get more people to hang out in nullsec is to provide more things for them to do that pay well enough to deal with the liabilities that come with living in nullsec. Better industry, easier access to minerals, PI style moon mining, anything that rewards individuals for undocking and doing stuff in space.

All the arguments for removing local center on just making it more appealing to covops cloaked gankers. And by making them so over powered, they'll flat out over hunt any other nullsec players until there is nothing left but covops gangs unknowingly passing each other by, and moon mining towers still defended by supers and blobs.

But yet WH's are not full of cloaky gangs, I think you are fearing something unlikely to happen as a lot of cloaky stuff is made of tin foil and the rest is expensive.

Yes Null should have better industry but in the ability of the players to create it, like in outposts and POS's, as to PI style moons a nice idea but I will admit I actually like ring mining so it is active rather than passive income.

Personally I would like to see moon mining in lo, null and WH's as people will probably go for that but they need to let us refine things in player build structures anywhere, higher than in an NPC station.

Also I would like to see Sov get a better type of ship it can build, you can build super coffins atm but as WH's have T3 cruisers, I would like to see T3 frigates in Sov space and the anoms that go with it, plus gas sites ect.. more to do that does not cause inflation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1409 - 2012-11-19 10:38:34 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:


Frying Doom wrote:
Yes you pay less attention in Hi-sec when traveling, that would probably explain why the rats bounties are lower, why you cannot moon mine, build supers or outposts and so many other things it is less dangerous as you can do less in it.

Pity the payouts aren't scaled to match in comparison with nullsec, then.

Ok I agree there CCP needs more things to build in the order of lo, Null, WH. Things you can mine and shoot and build that are unique to each without adding to inflation. Like sleepers, good loot no isk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1410 - 2012-11-19 10:42:16 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Many of us, the guys that actually live in nullsec, have argued that the way to get more people to hang out in nullsec is to provide more things for them to do that pay well enough to deal with the liabilities that come with living in nullsec. Better industry, easier access to minerals, PI style moon mining, anything that rewards individuals for undocking and doing stuff in space.

All the arguments for removing local center on just making it more appealing to covops cloaked gankers. And by making them so over powered, they'll flat out over hunt any other nullsec players until there is nothing left but covops gangs unknowingly passing each other by, and moon mining towers still defended by supers and blobs.

I think I may just keep quoting this if the "nerf local" crowd keeps posting.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1411 - 2012-11-19 10:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shepard Wong Ogeko
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes you would have to pay attention to live in Outlaw space.



This is just the wrong way to treat sov nullsec. Wormholes are the real wilderness of Eve. They don't even have stations. I suppose NPC pirate held nullsec might be considered "Outlaw" space.

But sov nullsec is not outlaw. There is a law, and it is the sov holders. And they do what they can to enforce their laws.

It is one of the cool things about Eve, that they actually provide some ground rules and tools and space for player created empires, rather than just have everyone stuck roleplaying some canned NPC faction. What we need is more ways for players to take advantage and reap rewards for using that players molded space. Right now it is stuck in a rut of primary resource extraction, renting, and hotdrops.

No-local doesn't improve that. It takes away the possibility of player made empires and reduces it to a cheap shooting gallery.
Frying Doom
#1412 - 2012-11-19 10:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes you would have to pay attention to live in Outlaw space.



This is just the wrong way to treat sov nullsec. Wormholes are the real wilderness of Eve. They don't even have stations. I suppose NPC pirate held nullsec might be considered "Outlaw" space.

But sov nullsec is not outlaw. There is a law, and it is the sov holders. And they do what they can to enforce their laws.

It is one of the cool things about Eve, that they actually provide some ground rules and tools and space for player created empires, rather than just have everyone stuck roleplaying some canned NPC faction. What we need is more ways for players to take advantage and reap rewards for using that players molded space. Right now it is stuck in a rut of primary resource extraction, renting, and hotdrops.

No-local doesn't improve that. It takes to possibility of player made empires and reduces it to a cheap shooting gallery.

No it just means that you are not an empire containing trillions of people, you are just an alliance so you should have to work at keeping your people safe. After the tech stuff up isk has become meaningless for some. That break in the game has meant that charging a fee for Sov is frankly insane.

As to having local, yes I could see this could be a benifit in some parts of sov null. As I said before a systems level should not be something paid for but something dynamic, based on player activity. So I could see it as a perk for instance when you got systems to their highest level by regular system usage. It should not just be a free handout.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1413 - 2012-11-19 10:50:47 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
But yet WH's are not full of cloaky gangs, I think you are fearing something unlikely to happen as a lot of cloaky stuff is made of tin foil and the rest is expensive.

Pretty sure you'll find tons of ratting ships killed by a single SB if you were to look, and I can (or could, I haven't really flown hurricanes for a while) shoot and kill a SB with a single volley of 3 out of 6 guns on my hurricane when the conditions are right.

Add to this the ability to be not just hard/impossible to find until you choose to let them (or **** up by uncloaking), but also impossible to know when you're there, and yes, you will be seeing a lot more cloaky gangs.

Frying Doom wrote:
Yes Null should have better industry but in the ability of the players to create it, like in outposts and POS's, as to PI style moons a nice idea but I will admit I actually like ring mining so it is active rather than passive income.

Personally I would like to see moon mining in lo, null and WH's as people will probably go for that but they need to let us refine things in player build structures anywhere, higher than in an NPC station.

This would depend on the implementation. I reserve the right to call it **** if it turns out to be ****.

Frying Doom wrote:
Also I would like to see Sov get a better type of ship it can build, you can build super coffins atm but as WH's have T3 cruisers, I would like to see T3 frigates in Sov space and the anoms that go with it, plus gas sites ect.. more to do that does not cause inflation.

I'm sceptical of moving T3 components outside of WHs, since I would've thought one of the good things about WHs is that they are the sole source of T3 stuff.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1414 - 2012-11-19 10:54:48 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
No it just means that you are not an empire containing trillions of people, you are just an alliance so you should have to work at keeping your people safe.

This'll never be the case until CCP implements things which can be ****** with to the degree where "meh, just wait them out" will be a bad choice to make when faced with roaming gangs.

Frying Doom wrote:
As to having local, yes I could see this could be a benifit in some parts of sov null. As I said before a systems level should not be something paid for but something dynamic, based on player activity. So I could see it as a perk for instance when you got systems to their highest level by regular system usage. I should not just be a free handout.

Linking having local to usage is dumb, if anything it should be a module you can anchor on a POS which can be hacked or incapped if a gang decides to **** with it, but requiring to bootstrap a system through ... uh I dunno, ratting or mining, just to get local? No.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#1415 - 2012-11-19 10:56:13 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:


Frying Doom wrote:
Also I would like to see Sov get a better type of ship it can build, you can build super coffins atm but as WH's have T3 cruisers, I would like to see T3 frigates in Sov space and the anoms that go with it, plus gas sites ect.. more to do that does not cause inflation.

I'm sceptical of moving T3 components outside of WHs, since I would've thought one of the good things about WHs is that they are the sole source of T3 stuff.

That was why I said T3 frigates give them completely different gas types, parts ect.. and make them unique to sov null. You get a nice income for your players and it does not stuff up wormholes.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1416 - 2012-11-19 10:59:26 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Frying Doom wrote:
As to having local, yes I could see this could be a benifit in some parts of sov null. As I said before a systems level should not be something paid for but something dynamic, based on player activity. So I could see it as a perk for instance when you got systems to their highest level by regular system usage. I should not just be a free handout.

Linking having local to usage is dumb, if anything it should be a module you can anchor on a POS which can be hacked or incapped if a gang decides to **** with it, but requiring to bootstrap a system through ... uh I dunno, ratting or mining, just to get local? No.

Frankly to many things anchored in null now, link it to player usage so that way you dont have local in systems rarely used just because you paid some isk.

You are in the ass end of space with a miniscule (Compared to an Empire) budget, I think more things should be linked to player activity rather than just wallet size.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1417 - 2012-11-19 11:01:01 UTC
You're starting to dip into lore here.
Need I remind you that's really not a good justification for anything?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1418 - 2012-11-19 11:07:04 UTC
A big reason why cloaky gangs aren't a huge issue in wormholes is that wormholes are transient. If you take your flimsy stealth bomber in there and lose it, you might not be able to get back to that same w-space system.

Nullsec space is fixed. You lose your bomber, you can set destination right back to where you were. Have a friend or alt with a carrier? They can jump in dozens of replacements.

I've seen solo gankers in our space do just that. If we manage to bait and kill them, they are back within an hour or two, and they can keep coming back to the same system over and over.


It is another one of those fundamental differences between w-space and nullsec. Wormhole instability limits their exposure to casual yet persistent harassment.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1419 - 2012-11-19 11:13:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You're starting to dip into lore here.
Need I remind you that's really not a good justification for anything?


It's not even good lore at that. Who says we don't have populations and big budgets and influence. We cornered the tech market. We got up to supplying 40% of the enriched uranium in Jita. I run colonies on over a dozen planets and so do hundreds of other goons.

This idea that we have to be poor out in nullsec is the reason why no one bothers trying to make isk out here. Nullsec is poor, highsec is wealthy, everyone just stay in highsec and enjoy civilization. After all, nullsec must always be gimped and broken and never as good as anywhere else because of lore.
Frying Doom
#1420 - 2012-11-19 11:13:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You're starting to dip into lore here.
Need I remind you that's really not a good justification for anything?

Actually when you are dealing with the benefits received in Empire space compared to benefits received in Non-Empire space, the Lore should be considered as it is the lore that gives us the differences between hi-lo and Null

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!