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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

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Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#1181 - 2012-11-18 12:13:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I see the establishment is still defending their free intel tool.

Sad too. Once upon a time people outside of highsec wanted features that would bring more PVP. Now they want easy mode like high sec.

Do you try to be this wrong? Is it a natural talent? Or some kind of rare congenital defect?

No Local + Static Gates + Alts = same intel, but fewer actual players.

Why is that so hard to figure out, or is it that you just want to argue for the sake of argument because "agreeing with a null-secc'r is wrong"?

I don't get it.

Soma Khan wrote:
oh my what a long thread and still all the same arguments and still ccp sitting on their thumbs after years of promises to make local delayed

wasn't all a waste though. if there's one thing that these threads have shown it's that pretty much everyone arguing against delayed local is a fusking botter. ain't no doubt about it

Shocked
And another one...

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The name of the expansion that removes local from null will be called "Learn how to hunt your prey you lazy stupid nullbears - your mommy local is not here to protect you" or something like that.


Wow..... Not only wrong, but pathetic *AND* wrong...

It's gotta be congenital.





As far as any argument that "WH's would take over" - that's pure bullshit.

Some WH corps / groups are moving in and out of K space all the time, some to null-sec, some back and forth, and some groups are living everywhere. Some K-Space 0.0 groups have moved into wormholes, but they haven't taken over and I would think after 3 years, if us WH'ers were that great, we would already have taken what we wanted in K-Space. But apparently the majority of people in WH's *don't* want K-space real estate.

But to think that WH corps/alliances > Null sec alliances (on an individual player level) is pants-on-head. Both groups have good players, both groups have knuckleheads.

Ugh - it sounds to be like this thread needs to be moved to COAD if it keeps going like this!

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1182 - 2012-11-18 12:24:09 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
As amusing as I find this thread, it should be locked. It's just the same arguments being spewed over and over again by morons who completely disregard facts contrary to their preconceived positions borne of ignorance and some completely inexplicable sense of spite towards people who live in nullsec.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mirima Thurander
#1183 - 2012-11-18 13:20:27 UTC
They use so many words to say so little.

Its sad your so afraid of this u spend all day stalking this thread.

And all I'm required to do is bump it and allow people that understand post.

Truly appreciate your help with the intended purpose, you are showing the rest of eve just how entitled you are to your null sec.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1184 - 2012-11-18 13:35:38 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
They use so many words to say so little.

Its sad your so afraid of this u spend all day stalking this thread.

And all I'm required to do is bump it and allow people that understand post.

Truly appreciate your help with the intended purpose, you are showing the rest of eve just how entitled you are to your null sec.

And you're one of those people I mentioned in my previous post.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Serptimis
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1185 - 2012-11-18 14:02:40 UTC
Remove local. And while you're at it, remove Warp to 0. this will also help to promote the type of 'PVP' looked for here Roll
Raptors Mole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1186 - 2012-11-18 14:07:23 UTC
Sorry for posting like this but the quoting the quote thing hurts my eyes;

1. Zim – “Yep, they would, by moving the last few isk-making alts from nullsec to hisec, lowsec or WHs instead”.

I honestly don’t think they would. Hi Sec income is a lot lower than Null, Low Sec carries a lot of risk, WH – well more folks in WH space is a good thing.


2. Zim – “The sov system isn't determined by player activity in a system in any way, shape or form”.

True, but my thoughts are holding it – and doing something with it are different things. You may hold Sov, but no local may encourage folks to come and run anoms, sites and effectively live under the radar. One there the penny may drop and they may well join your alliance. Local IMHO gives the Sov holders too much of a home advantage.


3. Zim – “Given that you're in favor of killing bots, then you should be against things like crimewatch 2.0 and maybe even the mining barge changes (honestly it's hard to tell these days, since people don't have to spend much energy to mine with the mack)”

I am actually in favour of the recent buff to mining vessels. It was way too easy for some 733T 9v9 chump to land on grid and pop a 150mil ship with a cheap fit dessie. Unfair to say the least.

4. Zim – “What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsec. Removing local would benefit one group of players and one group only: gankers who are terrible at this game. They'd just switch into cloaked ships and gank a few ships until people wisened up and moved their isk-making alts to hisec, lowsec or wormholes, at which point we'd be in a worse position than we are in now”.

I agree with the first bit – but how? The good bits are owned and it is currently too difficult to dislodge an establish power. It’s not that hard to pop gankers – especially bad ones, and it is great fun – my bait Drake is called “Taib Toidi” - Idiot Bait backwards, and it works more often than not. It would also give the little people in the alliance something positive to do – ie Actively scouting, plexing, hunting, defending – y’know – fun small gang stuff. Perhaps I have my rose tinted spectacle set too high there.

4a. Zim - “What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsec”.

Absolutely agree, again.

Worthy of mentioning twice here and TBH this is why I think the WH community is so vocal on the no local thing. I think they think it would be good for all.

Answers on a postcard to CCCP if you have a good un.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1187 - 2012-11-18 14:19:23 UTC
Raptors Mole wrote:
1. Zim – “Yep, they would, by moving the last few isk-making alts from nullsec to hisec, lowsec or WHs instead”.

I honestly don’t think they would. Hi Sec income is a lot lower than Null, Low Sec carries a lot of risk, WH – well more folks in WH space is a good thing.

The thing is that this has already happened, even without making cloaked ships basically I win-buttons when it comes to ganking in nullsec etc.


Raptors Mole wrote:
2. Zim – “The sov system isn't determined by player activity in a system in any way, shape or form”.

True, but my thoughts are holding it – and doing something with it are different things. You may hold Sov, but no local may encourage folks to come and run anoms, sites and effectively live under the radar. One there the penny may drop and they may well join your alliance. Local IMHO gives the Sov holders too much of a home advantage.

If they're going to do that, then I would've thought they'd rather go to WHs proper, where the rewards match the risk/effort. Hell, WHs make more sense because the rewards are higher and the risks are lower.


Raptors Mole wrote:
3. Zim – “Given that you're in favor of killing bots, then you should be against things like crimewatch 2.0 and maybe even the mining barge changes (honestly it's hard to tell these days, since people don't have to spend much energy to mine with the mack)”

I am actually in favour of the recent buff to mining vessels. It was way too easy for some 733T 9v9 chump to land on grid and pop a 150mil ship with a cheap fit dessie. Unfair to say the least.

Put on a few tanking mods and you needed more than 1 destroyer. vOv

Raptors Mole wrote:
4. Zim – “What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsec. Removing local would benefit one group of players and one group only: gankers who are terrible at this game. They'd just switch into cloaked ships and gank a few ships until people wisened up and moved their isk-making alts to hisec, lowsec or wormholes, at which point we'd be in a worse position than we are in now”.

I agree with the first bit – but how? The good bits are owned and it is currently too difficult to dislodge an establish power. It’s not that hard to pop gankers – especially bad ones, and it is great fun – my bait Drake is called “Taib Toidi” - Idiot Bait backwards, and it works more often than not. It would also give the little people in the alliance something positive to do – ie Actively scouting, plexing, hunting, defending – y’know – fun small gang stuff. Perhaps I have my rose tinted spectacle set too high there.

The "how" involves making it actually worthwhile for most pilots to actually live there, whereas today the only things really worth doing are PVP, building supercaps and reactions, and reactions etc are easily doable in lowsec instead.

Raptors Mole wrote:
4a. Zim - “What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsec”.

Absolutely agree, again.

Worthy of mentioning twice here and TBH this is why I think the WH community is so vocal on the no local thing. I think they think it would be good for all.

Answers on a postcard to CCCP if you have a good un.

The WH community seem to be underestimating a lot of the differences which would just end up making it economically unfeasible, both time and isk-wise, to bother trying to make a living in a no-local nullsec.

Honestly, sometimes I wish CCP would just remove local, just so I can point out that all the things I said would happen, did happen. It's not like it'll make any lick of difference for me, since I haven't made isk in nullsec for quite a while now, the effortlessness combined with the profitability of hisec just makes it economically unfeasible to do. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1188 - 2012-11-18 14:27:46 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Honestly, sometimes I wish CCP would just remove local, just so I can point out that all the things I said would happen, did happen. It's not like it'll make any lick of difference for me, since I haven't made isk in nullsec for quite a while now, the effortlessness combined with the profitability of hisec just makes it economically unfeasible to do. vOv

They might as well.

Let's do it. We already do a ton of PVS (player vs structure) so ok, great.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MasterEnt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1189 - 2012-11-18 15:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: MasterEnt
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
As amusing as I find this thread, it should be locked. It's just the same arguments being spewed over and over again by morons who completely disregard facts contrary to their preconceived positions borne of ignorance and some completely inexplicable sense of spite towards people who live in nullsec.


You are also talking about yourself and your buddies here as well, times five or six at least.

It's not about spite against nullsecers... again you are assuming you are the only ones who have lived or currently live there and assuming the delayed local will only affect you guys.

It's just a (tiny) bit of spite against people who think they are big sh!t know-it-alls. Who puff their chest, think everyone else is stupid and who claim they want more risk on one hand, then whine about something that would add it because they cannot be bothered to work as a team outside the forums.

Finally Lord Zimmy said it (although back-handidly), just DO IT already to prove his epeen. NO ONE (but him and a select few in his alliance obviously) can really make a claim about how delayed local will affect until it actually happens. He just seems to be certain he is right, others are certain he is wrong.

The only thing he CAN be certain about is that he (and you guys) may leave if local is delayed.

Granted, no one can speak for your actions. But then again, you may just be replaced by people who actually like it. Bad for you... good for eve. Something you don't want to admit, but that's not really anyone else's problem but yours. I've seen null change hands dozens of times due to changes in game mechanics and fist pounding. I'm sure it will happen again. Adapt or die is more like adapt or cry and leave.

Someone else distilled all this even better and with less "spite":
1) Delayed local will add flavor - Improve (my) game -or-
2) Delayed local will make things harder - Make (my) game worse

That is about what 60 pages comes to, maybe really 25 pages if we condense the amount of times 4 or 5 of you from the same alliance have to reply and put down any one person who dissents with your OPINION. Either way, I think enough of it is on the record.

Lock thread - we can agree on that much at least.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1190 - 2012-11-18 15:35:35 UTC
So we've all decided that nerfing local is necessary to repopulate nullsec right?

Ok, let's get this ~thang~ rollin'

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1191 - 2012-11-18 15:42:40 UTC
MasterEnt wrote:
NO ONE (but him and a select few in his alliance obviously) can really make a claim about how delayed local will affect until it actually happens. He just seems to be certain he is right, others are certain he is wrong.

Except the last time CCP ****** up local, null depopulated, and the last time CCP nerfed anoms, null depopulated. It will happen the way I say it will, but the only evidence you will accept is actually seeing it happen.

That's like saying "that pan is hot, touching hot things burn your hand, but the only way to get proof that that particular hot pan will burn your hand is to actually burn your hand". Good thing you're not in games design, is all I can say.

MasterEnt wrote:
Granted, no one can speak for your actions. But then again, you may just be replaced by people who actually like it.

You mean people like those who have already gone into wormholes, where the rewards actually fit the effort increase over hisec, and where the risk is less than nullsec?

MasterEnt wrote:
Bad for you... good for eve. Something you don't want to admit, but that's not really anyone else's problem but yours. I've seen null change hands dozens of times due to changes in game mechanics and fist pounding. I'm sure it will happen again. Adapt or die is more like adapt or cry and leave.

Oooh, I see, you think the isk-making alts actually make a difference on sov?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1192 - 2012-11-18 15:51:36 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
MasterEnt wrote:
Bad for you... good for eve. Something you don't want to admit, but that's not really anyone else's problem but yours. I've seen null change hands dozens of times due to changes in game mechanics and fist pounding. I'm sure it will happen again. Adapt or die is more like adapt or cry and leave.

Oooh, I see, you think the isk-making alts actually make a difference on sov?

If so, we'd have taken over a lot more of the map, since most groups have isk making alts in highsec.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Raptors Mole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1193 - 2012-11-18 16:46:39 UTC
Zim - You mean people like those who have already gone into wormholes, where the rewards actually fit the effort increase over hisec, and where the risk is less than nullsec?

Less risk than Null sec? If it is already less risky than null sec, with no local - the impact should be minimal.

WH space is Dangerous/Deadly - it says so on the wormhole itself. The only reason I have been forum warrioring this weekend is 80 or so pilots from Lost and Talun have evicted an alliance from their C5 this weekend. I spent the majoity of the time on WH control (boring).

Thread: Starts a bit slow but does get funny.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=173032&find=unread

Anyhow, back to normal hunting/scouting
Soma Khan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1194 - 2012-11-18 17:40:43 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Soma Khan wrote:


Andski wrote:


hisec is the safe botting haven, not nullsec;
lol



http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/01.jpg

Read it an weep.

oh look the empire space has higher population density. gosh what a surprise

how about a chart showing isk generation per bot per region. cause that would actually be relevant
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1195 - 2012-11-18 17:45:41 UTC
Raptors Mole wrote:
Less risk than Null sec? If it is already less risky than null sec, with no local - the impact should be minimal.

Sigh, I meant less risky in WHs after local was removed from null.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#1196 - 2012-11-18 17:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremy Soikutsu
Frying Doom wrote:
No I am saying that they probably would not care less about the isk if all they had to do was stuff up a few towers and watch the isk roll in.

But we know this will never happen, CCP only givens handouts like that to Null secers

I know right. I mean with all these Tech and R64 moons in CE we bearly have enough people to hual out all our filthy lucour.

Some joke about how all of null isn't Gewns, or somthing.

Really the ultimate showing of WHer ignorance is that they think that this would affect the CFC/HBC stranglehold on anything. You don't need local to protect or shoot a structure.

"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven
Soma Khan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1197 - 2012-11-18 17:52:34 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Soma Khan wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
He promised to put local into delayed mode, what they've done has been to buff it instead. He also promised to kill blobs, what they've done is to make blobs more and more required.

Your point?

you're saying ccp don't make mistakes?

Actually, no, what I'm saying is that CCP Zulu said he'd like to do that in 0.0, but it's obvious they realized how damaging it would be to nullsec, so what they did was make this happen in WH space instead.


the only thing obvious is that ccp decided that shineyes like incarna and an ingame rmt store will help with the bottom line and we know how well that turned out

now ccp is trying to reach their former glory with updating the spaceship shinyes and balancing, not that theres anything wrong with that

but anything that is risky and requires a lot of work like 0.0 sov game revamp or delayed local is again abandoned for some future when they run out of shineys to update
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1198 - 2012-11-18 18:03:48 UTC
Soma Khan wrote:
the only thing obvious is that ccp decided that shineyes like incarna and an ingame rmt store will help with the bottom line and we know how well that turned out

now ccp is trying to reach their former glory with updating the spaceship shinyes and balancing, not that theres anything wrong with that

but anything that is risky and requires a lot of work like 0.0 sov game revamp or delayed local is again abandoned for some future when they run out of shineys to update

Nerfing local will solve it, the morons well-playing-of-EVE people in nullsec said so.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MasterEnt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1199 - 2012-11-18 18:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: MasterEnt
Lord Zim wrote:
That's like saying "that pan is hot, touching hot things burn your hand, but the only way to get proof that that particular hot pan will burn your hand is to actually burn your hand". Good thing you're not in games design, is all I can say.


Roll Good argument there buddy - I didn't say the location of those who would replace you.

Besides, even if I was a Game Designer, it wouldn't make (nor shouldn't) make a difference. It would certainly not sway you considering your need to say no one has any experience they say they have as soon a they disagree with your assessment.

If everything was so obvious from the beginning, you would never need constant balancing and tweaking. But it is clear you can accurately predict what over 50,000 people will do in a given system. I am just left wondering why you aren't running CCP and every other game design firm yet, as opposed to wasting your time with what you consider idiots. I wonder how many DEVs you see doing that on the forums... but according to the way you see things, you must think they are idiots also since a few of them have suggested it.

Your hot pan analogy is way off, considering delayed local has never been tested in the manner we are discussing. It is more like this:

1) Hot pan = burn. - Tested
2) Water = wet, - Tested
3) Unrelated result = ? - Untested
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1200 - 2012-11-18 18:26:38 UTC
WH-style local in null has been tested, and we know what the result was.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat