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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

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Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#781 - 2012-11-16 15:25:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Maybe you should read up on some of the mechanics around all of it. You might be surprised on how much it all makes sense.

You mean the parts that make W-space local incompatible with nullsec mechanics? Makes perfect sense to those of us that actually live in nullsec and understand it, but the rest of you seem unwilling to accept the facts of the matter.

I am coming from programmer and actual game mechanics in terms of code. It can and will work with a w-space like local for nullsec. It just needs to be re-coded properly which can take minutes or hours depending on the skill of the programmer. You can't stop the code man. Your argument is invalid!

Where did I say anything about code?

Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
in terms of local mechanics working with nullsec, it works just like local in low and high sec. What would change is how you gank others and protect yourselves. Those are called strategies and tactics not mechanics. Stop confusing the two.

How we protect ourselves?

With w-space local in nullsec, you. can't. protect. yourself. without. severely. diminishing. profits.

At that point it makes no sense to stay in nullsec at all, instead we'd all head to highsec and run missions, do incursions, or mine there.

For LESS risk and MORE profit than I would otherwise have if I stayed in nullsec.
How many times and how many different ways do we have to say it before you realize what you're proposing is utterly idiotic?

Then you need to come up with more lucrative ways to make money or find a better accountant.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Mirima Thurander
#782 - 2012-11-16 15:26:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Maybe you should read up on some of the mechanics around all of it. You might be surprised on how much it all makes sense.

You mean the parts that make W-space local incompatible with nullsec mechanics? Makes perfect sense to those of us that actually live in nullsec and understand it, but the rest of you seem unwilling to accept the facts of the matter.


I truly do know null.

I know your 100% safe if u watch local from everything BUT a blob coming to bash your structure's.

The only way u die in null is

1 fleet fights.

2 doing something stupid. Aka engaging a known hot dropper.

3 not watching local.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#783 - 2012-11-16 15:26:01 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Then you need to come up with more lucrative ways to make money or find a better accountant.

It's almost as if I didn't just tell you exactly what everyone in nullsec would do if this were to happen.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mirima Thurander
#784 - 2012-11-16 15:31:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Then you need to come up with more lucrative ways to make money or find a better accountant.

It's almost as if I didn't just tell you exactly what everyone in nullsec would do if this were to happen.

So this is nothing more than 40 pages of u ranting how no local messes up your isk/h.

That's truly horrible.


All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#785 - 2012-11-16 15:32:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Then you need to come up with more lucrative ways to make money or find a better accountant.

It's almost as if I didn't just tell you exactly what everyone in nullsec would do if this were to happen.

Let me re-phrase it then. You have to look at multiple ways of making isk while in nullsec. If you have to come out to high sec besides for selling and trading then you are obviously doing something wrong. There is a whole list of things you can do to make isk in Nullsec. And not small amounts either. Just take a stroll through your skills and find a few things you like. Your in a corp right? You can all be doing different things and still make enough for yourselves and to keep the corp and alliance funded to protect yourselves and fuel resources for wars or what ever you want ot do. Sheesh! It's not rocket science. Even rocket science isn't that difficult once you break it down and actually make sense of it all.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
MasterEnt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#786 - 2012-11-16 15:35:00 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Sigh. I know perfectly well exaclty how wormholes work, you seem to be severely underestimating the impact the differences between WHs and nullsec will have.



And you are severely overestimating it.
Somewhere in the middle lies the truth which can only be tested, not assuming your self-apparent mind-experiment.
Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#787 - 2012-11-16 15:42:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Then you need to come up with more lucrative ways to make money or find a better accountant.

It's almost as if I didn't just tell you exactly what everyone in nullsec would do if this were to happen.


So now, not only are you assuming the impact of the difference, but you are also speaking for everyones future reaction in nullsec if certain changes were made. Nice LOL

You making a claim as to what everyone "would do" is nothing more than a far-fetched assumption. I make over a billion a month in Nullsec activities alone, and I don't even have alliance support structure in there.

Too bad your activity strategy is not as creative as your assumption imagination machine.
Pron Fron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#788 - 2012-11-16 16:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pron Fron
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ra'Shyne Viper wrote:
miners could simply have someone(s) watch the gate(s) i mean come on, you guys( 0.0 carebears) are pros at gate camping

What a fun activity, watching gates for hours on end! You're also ignoring of course that gates aren't the only way into a system.
You're also ignoring the fact that this would give larger alliances even more advantages over smaller ones, since they have the numbers to do this.



I think you just lost all credibility with this comment.

1) Larger anything will have an advantage over a smaller anything in most situations, this goes without saying. It's a fact of the universe. No one is ignoring that fact, but all things being equal, the argument means nothing in this context

2) Gates aren't the only way into the system.. waaaa? Even a hot-drop needs someone to light a cyno... someone who needs to use a gate. Yeah of course watching gates is borring, until someone comes in. But, so are many activities. that does not mean they are not invalid or incidental results of a PVP game which relies on teamwork and feeds on risk.

Now we know you don't want realtime local updates because you cannot be bothered to watch the gates or use probes or use dscan or have enough friends to watch your back. You are just a lazy solo nullbear.

But I am sure you going to accuse ME or reading thing incorrectly also. That's it, no one here understands you, and it's everyone else's fault.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#789 - 2012-11-16 16:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Pron Fron wrote:
Now we know you don't want realtime local updates because you cannot be bothered to watch the gates or use probes or use dscan or have enough friends to watch your back. You are just a lazy solo nullbear.

Does watching gates cover wormholes? Does dscan or combat probes show cloaked ships? Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? I think you're forgetting this is a game.

Having you and your circle jerk group here all arguing the same thing doesn't change the facts that you so blithely ignore.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#790 - 2012-11-16 16:46:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Pron Fron wrote:
Now we know you don't want realtime local updates because you cannot be bothered to watch the gates or use probes or use dscan or have enough friends to watch your back. You are just a lazy solo nullbear.

Does watching gates cover wormholes? Does dscan or combat probes show cloaked ships? Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? I think you're forgetting this is a game.

Having you and your circle jerk group here all arguing the same thing doesn't change the facts that you so blithely ignore.

Since you obviously asked these as rhetorical questions I will still answer them.

1. Does watching gates cover wormholes? No... But, you could have someone dedicated to scanning them out and watching them.

2. Does dscan or combat probes show cloaked ships? It can if you are within range of a gate or WH ent and are staying on top of your d-scans like you are suppose to. There is a small window that they are uncloaked when they come through.

3. Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? Not really. if there is isk to be made, everyone should agree to split profits to everyone that pitched in and did their jobs. You also have the added benefit of getting to know your corp and ally mates. TS works wonders and you also can't be afraid to talk.

I think the ultimate fact that we are missing is not the issues of realtime local in nullsec but your confidence and comfort levels. Though I am only been playing for 3 months, I would be fairly comfortable and confident I would be fine in nullsec with a realtime local... Once I get passed initial gate camps. It would just be W-space only with stations, gates, sovereignty, and a hell of a lot more traffic. Sounds like fun! TwistedLol

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#791 - 2012-11-16 16:48:56 UTC
Pron Fron wrote:
Now we know you don't want realtime local updates because you cannot be bothered to watch the gates or use probes or use dscan or have enough friends to watch your back. You are just a lazy solo nullbear.


Mirima Thurander wrote:
So this is nothing more than 40 pages of u ranting how no local messes up your isk/h.


Forum warrioring sure is easy when you get to pick and choose which thoughts you get to respond to, and ignore ones that have thought put into them and clearly counter your arguments.

Spaceman Jack wrote:
You making a claim as to what everyone "would do" is nothing more than a far-fetched assumption. I make over a billion a month in Nullsec activities alone, and I don't even have alliance support structure in there.


Congratulations, you've made enough isk to fund yourself a plex, and two combat battleships which should inevitably be lost over the course of a month. Maybe you lose a ratting T3 and you only have enough money to replace that one ship that month. I know a billion is a nice large number but for any person who has space to defend (the primary objective in 0.0) and whose alliance does not have enough isk for full reimbursement programs (because large alliances have taken all of the moons), and for someone who needs to plex multiple accounts (you need two to scout yourself, right?), a billion isk is nothing.

Why worry about any of this stuff when you can live in highsec and make similar amounts of money, but with much less costs?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#792 - 2012-11-16 16:53:10 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
3. Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? Not really. if there is isk to be made, everyone should agree to split profits to everyone that pitched in and did their jobs. You also have the added benefit of getting to know your corp and ally mates.

Are you really that stupid? You must be, because I've said it multiple times and you either don't understand or you choose to ignore it. Splitting profits that much would mean everybody makes about 15m an hour, at most, and that's a pretty liberal guess. Chances are it would be even less than that for how many people could be running anomalies compared to the people that would have to be watching gates, scanning, etc. which generate no profit at all. Everyone involved would make much more isk doing missions, mining, or doing incursions in highsec, and still at less risk than with your hypothetical teamwork scenario. It just doesn't make sense to do things this way.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#793 - 2012-11-16 16:54:58 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:


1. Does watching gates cover wormholes? No... But, you could have someone dedicated to scanning them out and watching them.

3. Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? Not really. if there is isk to be made, everyone should agree to split profits to everyone that pitched in and did their jobs. You also have the added benefit of getting to know your corp and ally mates. TS works wonders and you also can't be afraid to talk.



I know you're new and all but this is only really done in wormholes (which you have lots of experience in) because people make enough money that splitting profits is not a big deal. In 0.0 splitting the pittance you make is not really worth it, and because everyone needs to be able to fund their activities, it's not fair or profitable to put people on gate duty for free.

If you made 0.0 as profitable as wormholes are then maybe we could start talking.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#794 - 2012-11-16 16:58:02 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
If you made 0.0 as profitable as wormholes are then maybe we could start talking.

It would have to be more profitable, seeing as wormholes have all those nifty mechanics that make them still safer than nullsec (even with nullsec having local and all).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#795 - 2012-11-16 17:00:30 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
1. Does watching gates cover wormholes? No... But, you could have someone dedicated to scanning them out and watching them.

Who pays them for their trouble?

Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
2. Does dscan or combat probes show cloaked ships? It can if you are within range of a gate or WH ent and are staying on top of your d-scans like you are suppose to. There is a small window that they are uncloaked when they come through.

Who pays them for their trouble?

Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
3. Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? Not really. if there is isk to be made, everyone should agree to split profits to everyone that pitched in and did their jobs. You also have the added benefit of getting to know your corp and ally mates. TS works wonders and you also can't be afraid to talk.

Ooooh, I see. So in nullsec we're supposed to make less money for more effort than we would do if we just went to hisec.

Oh wait, that's what everyone in nullsec has already said "nope.jpg" to now, let alone when you have to pay 5+ people 40m/h each for sitting and doing something literally more boring than mining for hours on end.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#796 - 2012-11-16 17:00:32 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Spaceman Jack wrote:
You making a claim as to what everyone "would do" is nothing more than a far-fetched assumption. I make over a billion a month in Nullsec activities alone, and I don't even have alliance support structure in there.


Congratulations, you've made enough isk to fund yourself a plex, and two combat battleships which should inevitably be lost over the course of a month. Maybe you lose a ratting T3 and you only have enough money to replace that one ship that month. I know a billion is a nice large number but for any person who has space to defend (the primary objective in 0.0) and whose alliance does not have enough isk for full reimbursement programs (because large alliances have taken all of the moons), and for someone who needs to plex multiple accounts (you need two to scout yourself, right?), a billion isk is nothing.

Why worry about any of this stuff when you can live in highsec and make similar amounts of money, but with much less costs?

EVE Unwritten Rules
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
2. You are never alone in space.

In terms of POSes and Alliances and defending everything, the corps should at least be able to defend themselves somewhat. The alliance is there as a fallback or a cushion and can be rerouted to high attack locales in case a corp's or corps' poses are under attack. This is where military strategy and logistics to fuel battles and wars come in. It is amazing what people can do when faced with a lack of resources and overwhelming odds. The brain is an amazing thing.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#797 - 2012-11-16 17:03:26 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
EVE Unwritten Rules
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
2. You are never alone in space.

In terms of POSes and Alliances and defending everything, the corps should at least be able to defend themselves somewhat. The alliance is there as a fallback or a cushion and can be rerouted to high attack locales in case a corp's or corps' poses are under attack. This is where military strategy and logistics to fuel battles and wars come in. It is amazing what people can do when faced with a lack of resources and overwhelming odds. The brain is an amazing thing.

You're completely missing the point.
Not that that's surprising, at all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#798 - 2012-11-16 17:11:38 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

EVE Unwritten Rules
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
2. You are never alone in space.


Why do so many people choose to fly nothing, leaving nullsec pretty much empty?

Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

In terms of POSes and Alliances and defending everything, the corps should at least be able to defend themselves somewhat. The alliance is there as a fallback or a cushion and can be rerouted to high attack locales in case a corp's or corps' poses are under attack. This is where military strategy and logistics to fuel battles and wars come in. It is amazing what people can do when faced with a lack of resources and overwhelming odds. The brain is an amazing thing.


How many smaller, unaligned alliances own major money moons? Why do so many people complain about blobbing?
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#799 - 2012-11-16 17:14:41 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:


1. Does watching gates cover wormholes? No... But, you could have someone dedicated to scanning them out and watching them.

3. Do these friends get anything for watching gates besides hours of boredom? Not really. if there is isk to be made, everyone should agree to split profits to everyone that pitched in and did their jobs. You also have the added benefit of getting to know your corp and ally mates. TS works wonders and you also can't be afraid to talk.



I know you're new and all but this is only really done in wormholes (which you have lots of experience in) because people make enough money that splitting profits is not a big deal. In 0.0 splitting the pittance you make is not really worth it, and because everyone needs to be able to fund their activities, it's not fair or profitable to put people on gate duty for free.

If you made 0.0 as profitable as wormholes are then maybe we could start talking.

I thought Nullsec was already more profitable than W-space? If that's not the case, then why are we even having this conversation? Besides, it's not like all of the money is only made from running sites and ganking at gates or what not. Is making isk in nullsec really that hard? If you can't cut it and make a profit even when running with groups and doing the things that need to be done to survive such as running d-scans, staying aligned, scouting out, etc, etc... Then you don't need to be in nullsec in the first place. You are not ready for it yet.

@Lord Zim
All this stuff about being paid for their "troubles" is stuff they should already be doing to stay alive. Not losing a ship is payment enough.

Besides, I thought we played this game to have fun? Not run slave corps and login to go to work just to make the almighty ISK!
I just worked 10 hours and I don't want to login to "work" to just make isk. I want to come home from work and play to have fun. This second concept seems to elude everyone here on this thread. I don't want to be taken care of and have everything handed to me but I would also like a challenge when I do decide to go to nullsec.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#800 - 2012-11-16 17:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth O'Hara
EI Digin wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

EVE Unwritten Rules
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
2. You are never alone in space.


Why do so many people choose to fly nothing, leaving nullsec pretty much empty?

Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

In terms of POSes and Alliances and defending everything, the corps should at least be able to defend themselves somewhat. The alliance is there as a fallback or a cushion and can be rerouted to high attack locales in case a corp's or corps' poses are under attack. This is where military strategy and logistics to fuel battles and wars come in. It is amazing what people can do when faced with a lack of resources and overwhelming odds. The brain is an amazing thing.


How many smaller, unaligned alliances own major money moons? Why do so many people complain about blobbing?

Such is the way of war and the war economy. These are things that they should take up with their corps and alliance leaders to figure out a way to solve those problems. Not CCPs and definitely not us on the forums.

Now if you wanna start a resource allocation for alliances thread or site, then by all means do so. I would be more than happy to contribute there.

Edit: I apologize for the double post. I thought someone would have posted before I was done with this one.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _