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Dev Blog: Back to the balancing future!

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Ender Sai
Perkone
Caldari State
#801 - 2012-11-10 07:44:29 UTC
I just wanted to +1 concern over the ferox.

The tier 3 BCs pretty much means that it cannot be a sniper.

Also I like that i can fit launchers to it as well, just saying.
Kim Blackstone
Mineski Infinity
Pandemic Horde
#802 - 2012-11-10 10:13:49 UTC
CCP the mega is NOT just a blaster boat! Read its bonuses please - Turret damage & Tracking. It's the only Gallente BS that can be fielded for fleets.

The Hyperion is the blaster boat. Read its description and bonuses - Turret damage & active tanking.

PLEASE don't mess with the Mega's Hit Points. For what its worth, the Mega is mostly fine, where as the Hyperion is not. The Hype with 1 more turret to fit will need more CPU & PG, and potentially an extra low slot because active taking uses more slots, CPU and PG. And why does a Gallente BS does not have the ability to field 5 heavy drones? Give it 125 bandwidth & drone bay.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#803 - 2012-11-10 10:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
Quote:
Reimbursement details:

Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill.
With the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, it also means that you will still be able to fly an Apocalypse even if you don’t have the Amarr Battlecruiser skill trained at 4 after the change. It won’t matter as long as you have the Amarr Battleship skill at the proper level.

With this in mind, it becomes quite obvious to focus on training the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills before the change to get the maximum return effect. We highly recommend you start doing so now.


Am I the only one who has caught the discrepancy here? If you're only exchanging Battlecruiser X skill for a single [Race] Battlecruiser X skill, and the rank multipliers will be identical... then what is this benefit, that causes them to highly recommend training them now? You end with the exact same amount of skillpoints that you had previously, and no advantage to training them before changes than after.

There is either a failure in CCP Ytterbium's ability to communicate, or ability to draw a sound conclusion. But which is it?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#804 - 2012-11-10 10:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
@ Fozzie/Ytterbium I had a question of sorts.

So the Gallente battle process seems to be based around an idea similar to Minmatar, in that they ideally need to get in fast up close to lay down proper damage. They need agility and speed to accomplish that, but they're natively armor and hull tankers, and mods that go along those lines traditionally slow you down, making it extremely hard to optimally fit an armor tank on your gallente ship and not have it perform well below expectations.

What if all galletne hulls had a native immunity to any agility or speed reductions that might normally be associated with Armor plates and or rigs?

That would allow them to fit superior tanks and retain that needed edge, keeping blasters (more)viable on a chose racial hull, namely the gallente.

Its always seemed like such a simple fix to me that would allow them to operate as mother nature had intended that wouldn't backfire if it was kitted out for shields.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#805 - 2012-11-10 12:19:05 UTC
Jeremiah Kaiso wrote:
Given that the Ravens problems are acknowledged to be with it using cruise missiles, when are cruise missiles going to be looked at and made useful outside of PvE?


Kinda already are... They can swat down AHAC and BHAC gangs much more effectively than turrets on other battleships. If they do change cruise they will make them extreme long range weapons with terrible damage application to moving targets or something but make them move much faster.

They will become artillery i think.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#806 - 2012-11-10 12:20:07 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
@ Fozzie/Ytterbium I had a question of sorts.

So the Gallente battle process seems to be based around an idea similar to Minmatar, in that they ideally need to get in fast up close to lay down proper damage. They need agility and speed to accomplish that, but they're natively armor and hull tankers, and mods that go along those lines traditionally slow you down, making it extremely hard to optimally fit an armor tank on your gallente ship and not have it perform well below expectations.

What if all galletne hulls had a native immunity to any agility or speed reductions that might normally be associated with Armor plates and or rigs?

That would allow them to fit superior tanks and retain that needed edge, keeping blasters (more)viable on a chose racial hull, namely the gallente.

Its always seemed like such a simple fix to me that would allow them to operate as mother nature had intended that wouldn't backfire if it was kitted out for shields.


Massively lolling at the troll attempt. 150kEHP megathrons moving at the speed of a battlecruiser much?
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#807 - 2012-11-10 13:04:13 UTC
Missile Changes
And there is the missile nerf crap.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#808 - 2012-11-10 14:40:14 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
Atleast 20% bigger HP than other BC and shield extenders easier fitteable than 1600mm plates. (500PG vs 150 pg)
Though, for comparing like with like:

LSE II: CPU 46, PG 165*, HP 2625
800mm II: CPU 28, PG 230, HP 2400
1600mm II: CPU 33, PG 575, HP 4800

* reduced by 25% with Shield Upgrades V

Armor also gets a hidden 10% base resist bonus, though this starts getting into comparisons of other modules (DCU, Invul Field vs EANM, etc).

Though it is worth noting that comparing the LSE-II with the 800mm-II, the LSE gets both 10% more raw HP (compensation for armor resistance bonus?) and auto-repping.

Also seems to be an issue with 800mm plates vs 1600mm: no diseconomy of scale. 2x800mm has the same hp as 1x1600mm, but the costs are very similar: CPU 56 + PG 460, vs CPU 33 vs PG 575.

Finally, Drake occupies a slightly odd spot. The "comparable" Amarr BC (the harbinger) doesn't get an inbuilt resist bonus, so there's no armor equivalent in the BC line-up. Meanwhile, armor BS can use their superior fitting to load up on heavier plates, while no similar option exists for shield BS.

Consiger:
HML-II: CPU 55*, PG 105**
LSE-II: CPU 46, PG 165*
CML-II: CPU 66*, PG 1313**

800mm-II: CPU 28, PG 230
Heavy B-II: CPU 37*, PG 275**
1600mm-II: CPU 33, PG 575
Tachyon B-II: CPU 64*, PG 4125**

* reduced by 25% at all-V
** reduced by 10% at all-V

Fitting for LSE-II is comparable to HML-II
Fitting for 800mm-II is comparable to Heavy Beam-II

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Zeta Kalin
Large Rodent Hunters
#809 - 2012-11-10 14:51:08 UTC
I'm a pure Amarr char, without the destroyer or BC skill... I will get 0 SP out of that change, while you'll be handing free SP to about everyone else...

It's stupidly unfair, but I get the message, you don't want me in the game and accordingly I cancelled my subscription.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#810 - 2012-11-10 15:23:53 UTC
Zeta Kalin wrote:
I'm a pure Amarr char, without the destroyer or BC skill... I will get 0 SP out of that change, while you'll be handing free SP to about everyone else...

It's stupidly unfair, but I get the message, you don't want me in the game and accordingly I cancelled my subscription.

So you'll pay comparatively less for your clones after the change. Good news for you.

Skill points doesn't matter for anything else. It's just a number that goes up. Every ship you could fly before the change, you will be able to fly after the change.
Kim Blackstone
Mineski Infinity
Pandemic Horde
#811 - 2012-11-10 17:49:44 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
Quote:
Reimbursement details:

Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill.
With the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, it also means that you will still be able to fly an Apocalypse even if you don’t have the Amarr Battlecruiser skill trained at 4 after the change. It won’t matter as long as you have the Amarr Battleship skill at the proper level.

With this in mind, it becomes quite obvious to focus on training the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills before the change to get the maximum return effect. We highly recommend you start doing so now.


Am I the only one who has caught the discrepancy here? If you're only exchanging Battlecruiser X skill for a single [Race] Battlecruiser X skill, and the rank multipliers will be identical... then what is this benefit, that causes them to highly recommend training them now? You end with the exact same amount of skillpoints that you had previously, and no advantage to training them before changes than after.

There is either a failure in CCP Ytterbium's ability to communicate, or ability to draw a sound conclusion. But which is it?


Now: 4 x racial frigate - Destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - Battlecruiser
After changes: 4 x racial frigate - 4 x racial destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - 4 x racial battle cruiser

If you have: 1 x racial frigate - Destroyer - 1 x racial cruiser - Battlecruiser
Reimbursement: 1 x racial frigate - 1 x racial destroyer - 1 x racial cruiser - 1 x racial battlecruiser
To train all to V: 3 x racial frigate - 3 x racial destroyer - 3 x racial cruiser - 3 x racial battlecruiser


if you have : 4 x racial frigate - Destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - Battlecruiser
Reimbursement: 4 x racial frigate - 4 x racial Destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - 4 x racial Battlecruiser

You save: 3 x racial destroyer at 2x difficulty and 3 x racial battlecruiser at 6x difficulty

Conclusion: Train all racial frigates to IV, Destroyer to V, racial cruiser to III and Battlecruiser to V now to get full reimbursement.

The failure is not on CCP Ytterbium's part.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#812 - 2012-11-10 17:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Maeltstome wrote:


Massively lolling at the troll attempt. 150kEHP megathrons moving at the speed of a battlecruiser much?


Its not really a troll attempt, but isn't what you just described pretty much the exact ideal behind Gallente combat physics? Not to mention that it would only be Gallente that were under this effect.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#813 - 2012-11-10 18:24:33 UTC
Kim Blackstone wrote:
Uthgaard wrote:
Quote:
Reimbursement details:

Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill.
With the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, it also means that you will still be able to fly an Apocalypse even if you don’t have the Amarr Battlecruiser skill trained at 4 after the change. It won’t matter as long as you have the Amarr Battleship skill at the proper level.

With this in mind, it becomes quite obvious to focus on training the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills before the change to get the maximum return effect. We highly recommend you start doing so now.


Am I the only one who has caught the discrepancy here? If you're only exchanging Battlecruiser X skill for a single [Race] Battlecruiser X skill, and the rank multipliers will be identical... then what is this benefit, that causes them to highly recommend training them now? You end with the exact same amount of skillpoints that you had previously, and no advantage to training them before changes than after.

There is either a failure in CCP Ytterbium's ability to communicate, or ability to draw a sound conclusion. But which is it?


Now: 4 x racial frigate - Destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - Battlecruiser
After changes: 4 x racial frigate - 4 x racial destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - 4 x racial battle cruiser

If you have: 1 x racial frigate - Destroyer - 1 x racial cruiser - Battlecruiser
Reimbursement: 1 x racial frigate - 1 x racial destroyer - 1 x racial cruiser - 1 x racial battlecruiser
To train all to V: 3 x racial frigate - 3 x racial destroyer - 3 x racial cruiser - 3 x racial battlecruiser


if you have : 4 x racial frigate - Destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - Battlecruiser
Reimbursement: 4 x racial frigate - 4 x racial Destroyer - 4 x racial cruiser - 4 x racial Battlecruiser

You save: 3 x racial destroyer at 2x difficulty and 3 x racial battlecruiser at 6x difficulty

Conclusion: Train all racial frigates to IV, Destroyer to V, racial cruiser to III and Battlecruiser to V now to get full reimbursement.

The failure is not on CCP Ytterbium's part.


This is not what he said, and you take great liberties in making examples that are not supported by anything stated in this post.
Kim Blackstone
Mineski Infinity
Pandemic Horde
#814 - 2012-11-10 18:32:41 UTC
I fail to comprehend what about the skill change is so difficult to understand.

If you have more than 1 racial frigate or cruiser trained to the appropriate level, you will get additional racial destroyer and racial battlecruiser skill. Of course you will end up with more skill points than what you have now.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#815 - 2012-11-10 19:11:57 UTC
That statement about receiving multiple racial bc/dest to V. It was missing from his explanation. You have to make a pretty heavy assumption to get there from the two examples he gave: the two examples make it look like you would only get one.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#816 - 2012-11-10 19:16:53 UTC
Now the question is when? Because this makes it sound like they're due very soon, and all previous posts have assured everyone that they would not be coming in with the Dec 4 patch.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#817 - 2012-11-10 19:48:23 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
That statement about receiving multiple racial bc/dest to V. It was missing from his explanation. You have to make a pretty heavy assumption to get there from the two examples he gave: the two examples make it look like you would only get one.


"if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change"

For me that's as clear as it can be.

Just in case I'm currently training for all command ships and dictors (3 races to go). Mostly because currently I don't have anything better to train.
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#818 - 2012-11-10 20:59:49 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Tzel Mayon wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Caldari Battlecruiser V, and Minmatar Battlecruiser V


Hello ... Someone else asked the same exact question I am about to ask, on this thread about this topic... but it has been unanswered by CCP:

In the future will Faction Cruiser IV, (or Faction Cruiser III), be required for faction Battlecruiser I, and if so, will people automatically be given Faction Cruiser IV, if they already have Faction Cruiser III, and Battlecruisers I?

If this is the case, will people who have Faction Cruiser IV and Battlecruisers I be reimbursed for this training time, since other people will be getting it for free??

Thanks!!!


In the future, racial cruiser LvL 4 will be the prerequisite for racial BC.
If you currently have BC V, and racial cruiser III, you will be given racial BC V. You will NOT be given racial cruiser IV..... so no reimbursements are needed.

Besides, if you have BC V, Dessie V, and all racial cruisers to III (<- this last one takes very little time), then you turn 2m sp in to 8m sp.... I don't think anyone is "owed" more sp.... if anything, ccp is being FAR TOO GENEROUS dishing the sp out!


Why are you making the assumption that Racial Cruisers IV will be required for Racial BattleCruisers I? Is this posted some place?

The way Tiered Skills work in Eve, if Racial Cruisers IV is required for Racial BattleCruisers I, then CCP would have to GIVE everyone with Racial Cruiser III the level IV version of that skill.

And if CCP gives away free Racial Cruiser IV skills to people who would be able to fly that racial's battlecruiser, what about people who /already/ have a racial cruiser trained to level IV. Will they get those Skill Points to reallocate elsewhere?

For someone who has attributes and implants specializing in Spaceship command, they could train all their racial Cruiser IVs knowing that there will be a small reimbursement for those level IV skills coming, and then apply those Skill Points to Int/Mem skills or some such.

(Which would be really cool.)
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#819 - 2012-11-10 21:19:06 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
That statement about receiving multiple racial bc/dest to V. It was missing from his explanation. You have to make a pretty heavy assumption to get there from the two examples he gave: the two examples make it look like you would only get one.

Actually Fozzie has stated multiple time that multiple racial Des/BC skills can be gained...

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dinta Zembo wrote:
So if I have battlecruisers 5 and each racial cruiser at lvl 3, does that mean I'll get every racial battlecruiser skill to 5?
You're saying 'if you can fly it now you'll still be able to fly it', but I'd like to know on what level.


To the same level. So yes in that case you'd get all four skills to level 5.

Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#820 - 2012-11-11 03:46:17 UTC
Tzel Mayon wrote:
Why are you making the assumption that Racial Cruisers IV will be required for Racial BattleCruisers I? Is this posted some place?

The way Tiered Skills work in Eve, if Racial Cruisers IV is required for Racial BattleCruisers I, then CCP would have to GIVE everyone with Racial Cruiser III the level IV version of that skill.

And if CCP gives away free Racial Cruiser IV skills to people who would be able to fly that racial's battlecruiser, what about people who /already/ have a racial cruiser trained to level IV. Will they get those Skill Points to reallocate elsewhere?

For someone who has attributes and implants specializing in Spaceship command, they could train all their racial Cruiser IVs knowing that there will be a small reimbursement for those level IV skills coming, and then apply those Skill Points to Int/Mem skills or some such.

(Which would be really cool.)

From the blog itself....
Blog States: wrote:
As announced at the beginning of the year, skill requirements will be modified when we are done overhauling tech1 battlecruisers and battleships. This consists of:

Breaking Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills into four racial versions with an identical training multiplier (thus making it four times harder to get all races trained)
Changing skill requirements for Racial Cruisers from Racial Frigates 4 to Racial Destroyers 4
Changing skill requirements for Racial Battleships from Racial Cruisers 4 to Racial Battlecruisers 4
Changing skill requirements for capital ships from Racial Battleships 5 to 4, but introducing or increasing other skills to keep the same overall training time requirements
Personally though... I'm going to make sure I qualify for said racial BC/Destroyers beforehand, under the new skill prerequisites.... Just to be sure.
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!