Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Nerf unbonused TDs more. They're ruining frigate combat atm.

ECM is and always has been an all or nothing approach.
ECM boats have zero survivability* and low mobility, which means that ECM only makes sense to use if

A) it dominates the field at all time.
or B) it is operating from long range and the enemy gang is sufficiently immobilized.

If neither is the case, ECM might still have some minor impact, but the pilots would be of much greater use in DPS or other support ships. This concept is most striking in small gang PVP and was also pretty obvious during some matches in the last AT.

*Please don't suggest to "shield tank" non-solo ECM ships, that's just a horrible idea.

You might not like this mechanic but there currently are plenty of possibilities to counter it:
- ECCM
- Backup Sensor arrays
- ECCM projectors
- Cheap, but very effective implant sets, such as the low grade talon.
- Dedicated ECM hunting AF or speedy cruisers with ECCM.
- More drone boats.
- High volley missile boats (FOF missiles are a joke, I know.)

That aside, flying ECM ships currently requires skill, it's not - as so frequently claimed by its haters - an I win button. Many people struggle with the mechanics and it is probably the singular area in the game in which by far you see the most failfits.

Here is my problem with the racial compensation skills:
While +25% Sensor strength doesn't mean too much in frig/dessi warfare it of course has a huge impact on bigger ships.
It basically means that a Falcon, (which naturally will be insta-primary as soon as it decloaks) won't have a decent chance to jam out non-caldari BCs with one module anymore. The chance to even occasionally jam a logi will be lowered and people won't have to use any of the existing ECM counters such as implants or ECCM anymore to be sufficiently safe from it (except Über-ECCMed guardians maybe). And with such a HVT as the falcon now forced to operate within Drone control /non-Tier3 artillery range after the range nerf (because off-optimal jamming is completely ********) it will simply vanish from EVE PVP, such as the Raven did at some point.

To the overall usability of the falcon, the emergence of Tier 3 BCs was a major hit. December 4th will be the nail in its coffin.
Today, you rarely see falcons in lowsec, in all of 2012 I have seen a single rook in space that wasn't my own and after the upcoming nerfs, you won't see them at all anymore - including mine probably because +1 DPS or logi will be more valuable to our gangs.

While we EVE players are strong adapters who have continued to love the game after all changes, no matter how destructive, and possibly will for a long time (trust me, I'm in FW) it's now safe to say: Congratulations CCP, you have murdered the falcon, yet another caldari ship. Time to nerf missiles now, don't you think? We'll have to come up with something else to fly. Probably minmatar tank and gank, just like everybody else (yawn).

The only good thing I see about the ECM changes is that now not even the mentally challenged will come up with reasons to use multispectrals anymore. They're finally gone for good.

As for midplex-warfare, we'll have to experiment if it still makes sense to waste pilots on blackbirds and kitsunes instead of just putting them in DPS ships, too. (This is only regarding the compensation skills of course.)


CCP, on all the constant whining about ECM:
If the eve community has tought me one thing since 2009, it is that people like to win better than to whine and that if something is truly overpowered, it will be used in PVP by every other pilot. Remember the pre-nerf Dramiel? There you go!
Is every other guy flying an ECM ship right now? No sir! Even with such low skillbook and ISK requirements as it is.

Don't kill it, oh you're killing it,... yep you've killed it.
I think there is a term for an environment in which all "complicated" mechanics are removed or nerfed beyond practicability to accomodate to the more casual DPS and numbers apporach of the simple minded: World of Warcraft.

For the state o/
Njord


P.S.: Don't even get me started about the widow.... Used to be great, best way to dump a billion now.

Your focused point of view (you do station pvp alot by any chance?) totally denies that range is a very effective kind of tank. And taking away the diversity of ewar (by equalizing all kinds of ewar to close range types) might make you happy, but just harms the variety of possible pvp approaches of others.

To prove your very personal approach to destroy vary pvp possibilities, I've bolded the most not-so-smart parts in your statement:



So, you might have a all-in-wonder fit where you don't have a "spare" slot for ECCM. Don't blame others for that. But I'm afraid to tell you that the whole pvp-approach in this game is a rock-paper-scissors mechanic. And you plain want to take away the rock, because your certain fit only covers paper and scissor.

Not just EVE, but real life has examples too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_aircraft

NEW SKILLS WOOP WOOP!

One of the draw backs of this game is the stark difference in fits between PvP and PvE. The concept of generic modules modified by scripts might alleviate some of this discrepancy; i.e. the basic shield hardener could become the invulnerability field, but if loaded with a kinetic script it becomes a kinetic hardener.

I am not sure i like the ECM changes because they all seem to be balanced around the falcon scenario.

Considering the changes (especially the skill change), the general idea seems to be that ECM is too strong. Personally i don't think that is true. I believe that is a perception that is scewed by the frustration that the binary nature of ecm brings, but has nothing to do with reality. If you look at the ecm ships, essentially there are two use cases:

a.) lolfalcon
b.) noobblackbird

I do not see many scorpions anymore, and for good reason. Close range that BS is useless, even with armor tank (which cripples its ecm role quite a bit), it cannot be kept alive in even a medium sized engagement even with remote rep support. Long range used to be viable "in theory" because you could actually fit it to outrange hostiles, but it also meant that you could not follow a mobile fleet, had problems with proper warpins. etc. to cut it short it wasnt all that viable in dynamic fleet fights.

Nowadays with the t3 BCs range and alpha even that role is obsolete. The rook can't fit a tank that is needed for logistics to keep it alive and at the same time fit the proper ecm to do its job. The falcon is a one trick pony in limited scenarios that usually dies really fast in even medium engagements due to its limited range. Kitsune? In theory workable but too slow and too few hp to survive. Griffing is probably a decent frigate, but people outgrow that.

So yes, ECM got a really bad reputation because people don't like to die without being able to do anything. In reality however the role of ECM has dimished quite a bit. For fleet fights it is usually a lot better to bring damps for the enemy logis than to bring ecm.

If you nerf ecm effectively now, people will think twice before brining any ecm ships to fleets, because they will be even MORE useless. The scenario where some dude decloaks a falcon on a 1v1 fight on the other hand wont be affected much at all.

I think you really have two choices here if you want to avoid that, and you should - considering how awesome the scorpion looks.

a.) change the ECM mechanics fundamentally, make them usefull, but less frustrating for people, probably ditch the binary nature of the beast

b.) change the ecm ships. If ecm stays the same but is a lot less usefull, ecm ships need to be more survivable and compatible to fleet doctrines.

I REALLY like the mentioned idea of making ECM strength affecting the jamming length instead of the jam success. This would solve all the issues. ECM would be relieable for any ECM pilot! What I don't like about ECM is the binary nature. Planning a tactic with dices involved isn't fun. I lose fights just because a random number generator decided it. No piloting skill involved.

With ECM variable in jamming lenght I'd get something like an ECM burst in worst case at least. This is much more less frustrating for the ECM target as well since he can re-lock instantly. With better jamming strength jams become more lasting and more powerful that way.

I like the idea. but if you do it that way, you can break every tackle (you just need 1 second of lockbreak to get away).

Agreed. Plenty of good counters already available. No need to change ECM ships. ECM drones could stand a bit of adjustment.

ECM pilot brings rock. Enemy fleet can bring paper or sissors, their choice.