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Dev Blog: Back to the balancing future!

First post First post
Author
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#481 - 2012-11-07 12:18:08 UTC
"..........what are we going to do now with all that precious free time?"

Erm obvious really. You could fix the Corporation/Alliance Roles & Permissions interface with a view to making it user friendly and in the case of Player Owned Stations (POSes) make it possible for corporations to allow their members to use those facilities with a far higher degree of security so that said POS will not be robbed etc. Phew. That sentence was too long. Blink

If you do this you will make so many EVE pilots happy that you will wonder if they have all won the lottery. Nuff said. Smile
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#482 - 2012-11-07 12:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Why the Eos looks like a brutix other then a myrmdon?

Maybe the t2 ships should have a different hull base model... it would looks better then the same hull painted in different colours.

Also you could revamp the POS system... and all the other stuff that you promissed...
Quesa
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#483 - 2012-11-07 12:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Quesa
Foolish Bob wrote:

It's bonuses. Please please stop saying that. Bonus is good person. Good thing would be bonum which as data is the plural noun to datum makes the plural bona but given it's all mangled (clearly) I think we're allowed to modernise in this case. Especially as I have to accept people using data as a singular noun despite having the opposite drilled into me, so you all get to accept that. Smile

Also fun fact: the plural of octopus should be octopodes because the -pus part is greek. Not that I say anything other than octopi but I just like the fact Smile

It's also the plural of Bonus although I'm not using the special character over the 'i' and you're right, the plural of octopus isn't octopi, it's octopodes but that is because it is, in fact, Greek and not Latin which traditionally swaps the -us for -i when plural.

Additionally, it's a word I like.
Neddy Fox
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#484 - 2012-11-07 12:23:07 UTC
I'm also one of the 7 with maxxed out Warfare skills :) Well, MD5 is missing, but meh.

Question : As I bugreported this at least once, when you're revisiting the bonusses, will you also fix the broken wing command bonus ?
The WC will has never had any bonusses from the FC, where SC's get fleet ánd wing bonusses.


Also, a ship with active links with LESSER skills as squadcommander overrules a wingcommander with better skills (and links running).
(As example, an Orca SC with links running gives HIS bonusses to squad, even when there's a Rorqual Wing commander in fleet).
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#485 - 2012-11-07 12:32:48 UTC
Quote:
Yes comrades, battlecruisers are indeed next to get through the tiericide revolution. Let’s face it, they had it coming, as current tier 2 variations perform too well while tier1s are found wanting. With this in mind, the plan is to adjust total slot layout to 17 on all of them and split them into two categories depending on their expected role.


so...

Harbinger: lose a slot
Oracle: slots unchanged
Prophecy: gain a slot

Drake: lose a slot
Ferox: gain a slot
Naga: slots unchanged

Brutix: gain a slot
Myrmidon: slots unchanged
Talos: slots unchanged

Cyclone: slots unchanged
Hurricane: lose a slot
Tornado: slots unchanged



tell me I'm daft and I'm not reading that correctly.....

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#486 - 2012-11-07 12:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Klymer wrote:
Quote:
Yes comrades, battlecruisers are indeed next to get through the tiericide revolution. Let’s face it, they had it coming, as current tier 2 variations perform too well while tier1s are found wanting. With this in mind, the plan is to adjust total slot layout to 17 on all of them and split them into two categories depending on their expected role.


so...

Harbinger: lose a slot
Oracle: slots unchanged
Prophecy: gain a slot

Drake: lose a slot
Ferox: gain a slot
Naga: slots unchanged

Brutix: gain a slot
Myrmidon: slots unchanged
Talos: slots unchanged

Cyclone: slots unchanged
Hurricane: lose a slot
Tornado: slots unchanged

tell me I'm daft and I'm not reading that correctly.....


You are Evil as droneboats always have one less slot than the rest.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Herren Varno
Steel Dust Heavy Industries
#487 - 2012-11-07 12:41:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Herren Varno
Restricting the use of offgrid boosting will be bad for the smallest scale of pvp (i.e. most of the pvp in Low-sec).

It will introduce a significant advantage to gangs which are large enough to warrant fielding a dedicated booster pilot, and will discourage fights between gangs at either side of that threshold. And ultimately remove the viability of those smaller gangs.

Ignoring Logistics, which are not present in the majority of Low-sec engagements, links provide the greatest advantage to active tanks, and give the smallest gangs (1-6) the required edge to fight gangs 50-100% larger (which are more commonly buffer tanked.) They actively encourage smaller gangs to fight numerically superior forces; and in Low-sec PvP, where a couple of additional pilots on one side can be a significant difference, giving us the ability to up-engage through the use of link alts and active tanks is crucial to keeping the gudfites flowing.

There are plenty of ways to fix the perceived problems of OGB in null without stamping on low-sec, so how about using a more considered solution than nerfing link alts into the ground?

If you must go through with it, then how about a buff to active tanks, and the removal of gate guns so we can at least reliably use gate mechanics to up-engage.
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#488 - 2012-11-07 12:41:49 UTC
Klymer wrote:

so...

Harbinger: lose a slot


Harbinger definitely doesn't need a nerf. However good solution would be:
- 1 low
- capacitor recharge for lasers
tank bonus instead of laser cap usage
Iam a Spy2
solo and loveing it
#489 - 2012-11-07 12:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam a Spy2
first off Great get rid of off grid boosting you what fleet boost risk your command/ t 3 ships so HTFU.

2nd t2 Command ships should have higher boost over t3's given t3's are jack of all trades master of none and to fly a battlecruiser command ship takes longer to train then any t3.

3rd Not happy about the mega nerf. and thats what its going to be. Domi is lacking alot and could use love. The mega is the back bone to Gal pvp bs's because the hype just sucks and its ulgy and domi only good for neuts/ rr and drones and its even ulgyer there a hung over CCP SoundWave "well i can say that i saw the vid ccp posted". the only real boat for pvp in the bs class for gal is the mega dont turn it into something like the typhoon.

If you change the mega Leave the Navy untouched it should have thick armor and can reach 400k ehp with the right skills,implants and fit and boost. Take that away from the Gal and amarr, minmatar and cal. will walk all over the gal. For takeing high dmg and given out good dps the mega is they only bs worth a damn in Gal hanger for t1 bs's hell the mega need a extra mid slot btw.

So over all i like what comeing other then the mega nerf.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#490 - 2012-11-07 12:54:11 UTC
Regarding ships using mindlinks & giving boosts:

1) I personally have no problem with boosting ships not being allowed to boost within a POS forcefield EXCEPT for the Rorqual or any other ship that is providing mining boost links ONLY. Mining should kept apart from combat.
2) I personally feel that ships should still be able to apply boosts to their respective fleets while being in the same system UNLESS you implement a different method of obtaining mindlinks so that they are far cheaper and therefore disposable financially speaking. They currently sell in the region of 100 million ISK each and I would propose a price of 20 million ISK would be not too cheap but still somewhat 'disposable'. Instead of dropping or as rewards from missions they would be on sale at LP stores in high sec systems but probably not at FW LP stores.
I have another pilot trained up with lvl 5 in most of the mindlink related skills but at 100+ million a pop I would be loathe to risk that kind of loss in battle on a regular basis and I doubt most pilots would want to do that either.
So on that basis I suggest you either leave the off grid boosting alone OR apply a far cheaper buying method for COMBAT ONLY related mindlinks with the removal of off-grid boosting.
I also suggest you leave the rarity of mining mindlinks as it currently stands as making them more readily available would affect the EVE economy to a great degree.
Foolish Bob
E-MORage
#491 - 2012-11-07 12:57:18 UTC
Quesa wrote:
Foolish Bob wrote:

It's bonuses. Please please stop saying that. Bonus is good person. Good thing would be bonum which as data is the plural noun to datum makes the plural bona but given it's all mangled (clearly) I think we're allowed to modernise in this case. Especially as I have to accept people using data as a singular noun despite having the opposite drilled into me, so you all get to accept that. Smile

Also fun fact: the plural of octopus should be octopodes because the -pus part is greek. Not that I say anything other than octopi but I just like the fact Smile

It's also the plural of Bonus although I'm not using the special character over the 'i' and you're right, the plural of octopus isn't octopi, it's octopodes but that is because it is, in fact, Greek and not Latin which traditionally swaps the -us for -i when plural.

Additionally, it's a word I like.


so, like corporations, command ship / T3 bonuses are people too? Cool
Miaaaw
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#492 - 2012-11-07 13:02:07 UTC
I'm expecting my bonuses T3 that's worth three times a claymore on the market to give my fleet better bonuses, and I don't give a **** about having a bonus of each type. It seems you forgot about the ship prices, the better it is, the more you have to pay for it and this apply to all the changes planned in here.

Both nerfing Cane and Drake and buffing Myrm and harbinger isn't a good idea. It's the better way to make the old OP ones **** and the old ****** ones OP. Pick your changes but buffing is better than nerfing, I'm not the only one to say that.

Another point is that by nerfing missiles, you nerf other missiles boat such as Cerberus (which, in my opinion, doesn't diserve it) and not only the drake (that obviously diserve something in da face). And please, don't kill the ferox making it a railgun fragile sniping thing, no one will be using it.

Quote:
Hyperion: the hull could be improved, but again most of the issues come from passive versus active tanking problems

Yeah, **** passive tanking, let that to amar ships, they are good for fleets, Gallente ones are good for solo, no need to change this.

Each ship has its own weaknesses and strengths and that's what makes EVE insteresting, you have to keep that in mind before making them all the same. EVE isn't WoW, you're not bound to a race or a ship, you can fly whatever you want if you train for it, so there's no need for all ships to be equals. You can add to this the fact that the all market thing is rebalancing it for you. There's some good ideas in that blog but you should focus on making the ships that no one flies better instead of trying to balance ships that everyone loves the way they are.

You also have to think about changing the BP minerals requirements if you kill the Tier system, didn't hear anything about that.

Anyway I've got lots of things to say but it would take too long.
Love you all anyway <3
Steven Shen
Flat Earth Believers
#493 - 2012-11-07 13:07:44 UTC
Because of these changes, I have to re-arrange my training schedule which bring troubles to me, can u tell me the possible change time of the destroyer and bc skills? Jan, Late Jan or Feb?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#494 - 2012-11-07 13:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I love the future of Eve, however I do have a few things...

Battlecruisers:

The current tier 3 ships should IMO fit into the bombardment role - getting long range firepower by fitting larger weaponry.
Speed is the main reason for these babies being unbalanced atm, but at the same time having 8 large weapons with damage bonus on each of them really steps on the role of battleships as nothing subcapital can compete with the alpha from these.
At the same time the lock time is insanely fast - I'm okay with a long range but they should not lock any faster than other battlecruisers and perhaps their scan resolution should even be worse.

I love how CCP managed to make alpha/sniping viable again, but nerfing mobility is not the only thing we need. I am a strong believer in removing at least 1 turret (so at least 1 battleship for each race can have better alpha) and use 1 bonus for signature reduction instead of having a fixed low signature. Then each ship have 1 bonus left for damage, rof, tracking or similar still making them shine in their field. Apart from this plz remove Talos drone bay and find another way to balance it...

Also if you want these to stay away from close range just give them a negative role bonus towards tracking. Even 10% should be noticeable?

Prophecy will be fun as a drone ship if it will gain a little mobility - I find it very interesting to see if you make the Prophecy keep the resist bonus to give it time for the drones to tear down the enemies or you give it a laser/gank profile. Just make sure at least the Prophecy or the Harbinger will be a good tank...

The Ferox would REALLY, REALLY shine with a shield bonus and a damage bonus. The range on Railguns are more than sufficient for battlecruisers and the model really look like a space knight in shining armor. If you insist on a damage bonus + optimal bonus plz make sure it has 6 medslots and do not let the Drake keep the resist bonus plz...
Resist + damage bonus really match the caldari hybrid line, but perhaps you are too worried it will outshine the Moa?

Drake would be fun with a missile velocity bonus instead of the resistbonus. I doubt many people think the Drake is too fragile as it is right now anyway and with the slow acceleration HAMs will benefit a lot from the extra range and speed such a bonus can give.

Battleships:

Scorpion could really benefit a lot from a 5/5 weapon layout and maybe a huge structure to prevent them being primaried out of the field - especially with ecm effectivity being reduced a lot. Tbh a strong structure should also be introduced to Griffins and BlackBirds to keep them away from being oneshots?

Apocalypse is okay but would be far more interesting with more damage. The cap bonus is nice but makes it look dull. Cap can always be solved with a bigger capacitor, but it's a shame to have Apocs for NPC only just like the Raven. It has a super nice anti support role with the range bonus that could easily be strengthened.

Raven - I dont know what you have in mind but giving it the same amount of shield as a Navy Raven as well as looking into missiles and fitting could make it very interesting again...

Rokh: Damage bonus and Shield Resistance would be epic. Large railguns don't need a range bonus anyway.

Hyperion is very nice, however the amount of armor is too little for active repairers to be really effective and it has too much shield to keep people away from very effecient shield gank setups (it should be an option but not better than the armor setup)

This is it for now. I really love the new warfare link changes. Hope you force warfare links to be on grid too - but let links be active during warps too...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#495 - 2012-11-07 13:16:57 UTC
Steven Shen wrote:
Because of these changes, I have to re-arrange my training schedule which bring troubles to me, can u tell me the possible change time of the destroyer and bc skills? Jan, Late Jan or Feb?


Would be good.

I appreciate you can't give firm go live date, but can you at least get something in the "not before" camp (that's further out than 5th Dec Blink)
Abramul
Canadian Forces Corp
United 4 Nations
#496 - 2012-11-07 13:21:25 UTC
While on the subject of command ships, I would suggest using the T1 hull with a similar role for the base, instead of basing both on the same one. Mostly because I want a T2 Hurricane.
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#497 - 2012-11-07 13:30:47 UTC
Great changes, CCP, and long overdue.

Do it now. Don't let the Drake / Tengu / Loki whiners stop you.

My 0.02 ISK: Whatever you do to the Brutix, please make it viable as fleet DPS boat that will not result in the pilot being kicked from fleet. Ditto for Gallente battleships, although it looks like you intend to do this for the Hyperion.



Don Salaris
#498 - 2012-11-07 13:31:57 UTC
I find the conversion of skills not very well explained. 'if you can fly it now, you can fly it afterwards' is only part of the story.

"Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill."

What happens when you have a battlecruiser skill of level 5 and an Amarr cruiser skill of only 3? You get Amarr battlecruiser skill 3 according to the text. Just as someone who has only a battlecruiser skill of level 3. That seems hugely unfair. What happens with the effort invested in the 'extra' levels of battlecruiser skills that cannot get converted? Do you get the skillpoints back?

Now while I understand that the effort of the battlecruisers will be counted against all races and so you are getting a bonus when you have multiple races, starting toons have only 1 race developped I would say, and can have a loss of skill points as a result of this conversion.

Suppose I better start training races I have no interest in atm...
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#499 - 2012-11-07 13:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
Don Salaris wrote:
I find the conversion of skills not very well explained. 'if you can fly it now, you can fly it afterwards' is only part of the story.

"Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill."

What happens when you have a battlecruiser skill of level 5 and an Amarr cruiser skill of only 3? You get Amarr battlecruiser skill 3 according to the text. Just as someone who has only a battlecruiser skill of level 3. That seems hugely unfair. What happens with the effort invested in the 'extra' levels of battlecruiser skills that cannot get converted? Do you get the skillpoints back?

Now while I understand that the effort of the battlecruisers will be counted against all races and so you are getting a bonus when you have multiple races, starting toons have only 1 race developped I would say, and can have a loss of skill points as a result of this conversion.

Suppose I better start training races I have no interest in atm...

This has now been answered numerous times by the devs, if you had even just checked for dev posts in this thread you'd know it. It would've been faster than typing all the text you've posted. Quoted from just one page earlier:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
You'll be able to use the ships you could use before, at the same skill levels you could use them at before.
So if you can fly Hurricanes with BC V, you'll get Minmatar BC V
IN other words: having BCV will mean you'll get ANY racial BC at level 5 as long as you have that races Cruiser to at least III.
Sivinn Da'Lawa
The Expatriot League
#500 - 2012-11-07 13:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sivinn Da'Lawa
Don Salaris wrote:
I find the conversion of skills not very well explained. 'if you can fly it now, you can fly it afterwards' is only part of the story.

"Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill."

What happens when you have a battlecruiser skill of level 5 and an Amarr cruiser skill of only 3? You get Amarr battlecruiser skill 3 according to the text. Just as someone who has only a battlecruiser skill of level 3. That seems hugely unfair. What happens with the effort invested in the 'extra' levels of battlecruiser skills that cannot get converted? Do you get the skillpoints back?

Now while I understand that the effort of the battlecruisers will be counted against all races and so you are getting a bonus when you have multiple races, starting toons have only 1 race developped I would say, and can have a loss of skill points as a result of this conversion.

Suppose I better start training races I have no interest in atm...


First it does not say what you claim it does, it didn't address it at all, but was clarified by multiple dev comment already.

Their response was that you will be able to fly any ship at the existing level you did before, meaning Battlecruiser 5 combined with any Racial Cruiser 3 will result in Racial Battecruiser 5.