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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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fukier
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2012-11-03 16:11:56 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Hey Fozzie. These are all good changes. I have only one critisism.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)




I think this skill should not affect ship sensor strength but the effectiveness of ECCM modules...

That's it. Good work though

Absolutely wrong. What you propose is buffing ECCM to make them mandatory just like these new skills, but unlike skills ECCM can not be put onto any ship requiring it.

Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen?


i dunno i like the idea of it increasing the effectiveness of eccm and backup arrays and also projected eccm...

cuss if they are just doing it to increase base stats why not just scrap the whole train more stuff thing and just increase the base strength of the ships by 25%?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-11-03 16:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
ScoRpS wrote:
ECM needs a radical overhaul. As it is it's abused and no fun at all and has been for a long long time.

A single module that totally negates jamming 100% similar to triage would be nice.

Or a sliding scale system based on sensor strength. jamming strength 24 cannot jam ship with sensor strength of 25. Taking the chance element completely out.

ECM drones should have same penalty reducing them to anti frigate/tackle only.

As it is 0utbreak condemns the use of ecm in our own gangs favoring tactics and strategies over jamming. We like our prey to be live and kicking!



what about revamping the auto targeting unit to be a back up targeting unit that will allow you to target when jammed but has simular negative effects like a cloak or warp core stablizer?

so when the mod is active it reduces max targeting range sig resoution? the cycle of the mod would be 40 seconds... so it would only negate one of two jams...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-11-03 16:16:35 UTC
Adding four racial sensor strength skills doesn't strike me as a good way to balance ECM. The skills will become mandatory for everyone to train to at least level IV, which means that you're effectively just setting a new, lower baseline for ECM. Furthermore, the skills do absolutely nothing for you when you're not being jammed. That is a problem tied to the ECM mechanic, but it's still a huge problem. Tracking skills / modules help me track in all situations, sebos / targeting skills always help me lock faster, but sensor strength gives me a slightly higher chance of not being rendered useless.

It is a bad concept for a module and it's no better as a skill. Unless you already have a plan of what you want to do with these skills with regards to a future overhaul of the ECM mechanic then you should reconsider if adding them to the game is the right move. Otherwise you may very well end up in a situation where you need to redesign the skill or just reimburse everyone's SP. ECM is a broken mechanic, don't feed the monster by having everyone invest more SP into it.

If what you want to achieve is a slight ECM nerf, then just change the jam strength on all the jammers. Weeks of training time to maybe get jammed less isn't going to solve any problems.
Super Stallion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-11-03 16:32:55 UTC
kyrieee wrote:
Adding four racial sensor strength skills doesn't strike me as a good way to balance ECM. The skills will become mandatory for everyone to train to at least level IV, which means that you're effectively just setting a new, lower baseline for ECM. Furthermore, the skills do absolutely nothing for you when you're not being jammed. That is a problem tied to the ECM mechanic, but it's still a huge problem. Tracking skills / modules help me track in all situations, sebos / targeting skills always help me lock faster, but sensor strength gives me a slightly higher chance of not being rendered useless.

It is a bad concept for a module and it's no better as a skill. Unless you already have a plan of what you want to do with these skills with regards to a future overhaul of the ECM mechanic then you should reconsider if adding them to the game is the right move. Otherwise you may very well end up in a situation where you need to redesign the skill or just reimburse everyone's SP. ECM is a broken mechanic, don't feed the monster by having everyone invest more SP into it.

If what you want to achieve is a slight ECM nerf, then just change the jam strength on all the jammers. Weeks of training time to maybe get jammed less isn't going to solve any problems.



These skills will also make it more difficult for someone to scan you down. since ship size, for probes, is ( sig rad / sensor strength ).

So, they do have an effect that goes beyond facing ECM ships.
Yue Rubens
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-11-03 16:54:32 UTC
I agree with Fin that it would be pretty hard for allrounders to skill this for all their ships, however not all races/shiptypes need these skills *mandatory*, a falcon pilot will need them, just as a scimitar pilot will. Flying a dps ship in fleet will not make this skill to 5 mandatory, as ECM is usually not directed at the dps bulk of the fleet.


To those guys who call for a change to the scorpion, or complain that caldari has only one viable battleship:

Just no!

It is not a fault that caldari have a fun, different, ewar-based bs, the fault lies in that 2 of the other races don't. The dominix takes a similar position to the scorp as it is better at support/ewar/neuts/versatility than damage.

Buhu the scorpion has no armor tank? Well zang, first off, it's a caldari ship. Second, it can jam from up to 150km away, what does it need tank for. If you want a brawler/neut scorp you'll have to sacrifice mids for shield tank. And then you'll get the added goodie of a bonused burst lockbreaker with like 25+ km range.

A well fielded raven fleet can be quite useful, too, the doctrine wheel turns every day...
Timothia Hodges
Perkone
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-11-03 17:09:09 UTC
Does scanning really need to be made harder?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#167 - 2012-11-03 17:17:16 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen?

May be because unstopable ship is bad concept ?

What I don't understand is that people don't mind having kiting ship hard countering brawlers but hate EWAR even though EWAR can be countered the same way Lr fit counter SR fit.

Of course, ECM is a bit screwed mecanic, but the concept of fitting to protect against some threat should stay.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#168 - 2012-11-03 17:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
Total newb question: How/why do these changes effect probing?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2012-11-03 17:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Total newb question: How/why do these changes effect probing?


They make it harder (smaller signatures).

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen?

May be because unstopable ship is bad concept ?

What I don't understand is that people don't mind having kiting ship hard countering brawlers but hate EWAR even though EWAR can be countered the same way Lr fit counter SR fit.

Of course, ECM is a bit screwed mecanic, but the concept of fitting to protect against some threat should stay.


Because fitting a LR ship to kite SR ships doesn't immediately gimp me against every other possible gang comp out there. Fitting an ECCM gimps me against everything that is not ECM. This is why people are happier with damps / TDS: naturally, people fit modules to maximise the stats these types of EWAR affect.

The second reason is that there is only one place to counter ECM: before you undock. Every other type of EWAR can be countered in space (stay outside of Point / Web / Neut range, burn close to your target against damps, fly to optimise your tracking / range against TDs). The only thing you can do against ECM is blap it, which isn't really a counter because you can't do it if it's affecting you.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2012-11-03 17:35:28 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Total newb question: How/why do these changes effect probing?



scanning works on how big your ships is i.e. your sig radius vrs how strong your sensor strength is...

if you have a low enough ratio it makes it litterally impossilbe to scan you down (ccp fixed this a while ago)

but with a 25% increase in a tengu sensor strength you could in theory now have unscanable ships again...

but tbh this would only last a little while as fozzie said he already has ideas for a counter to this...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-11-03 17:38:10 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
I'll just leave this here.. http://themittani.com/features/ecm-not-nerf-we-deserve-fix-we-need

ECM needs an overhaul, nerfing range, adding a bunch of skill to effect will do nothing and might even cause more problems along the way.

That website is **** and that article just proves it. Ugh
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#172 - 2012-11-03 17:47:44 UTC
Fozzie, are there any plans to review ECM drones? (And all ewar drones to be honest, anything that doesn't have EC in it's name is worthless). Right now ECM drones are much stronger than a multispectral jammer on an unbonused hull which doesn't seem inline at all. Also, due to the way the ECM Mechanic works, 5x EC-300's for example don't have any stacking penalty, they are just extra dicerolls of the same strength, where as the 4th and 5th light sensor drone is applying the same stacking penalty as if you were putting 4-5 damp modules on someone for example, which means your 4% target range and scan resolution damp is actually 0.4% or something not even worth mentioning.

I think to get around the stacking penalty a good solution would be to maybe just roll all 5 drones into a single drone for each type of ewar.

i.e. instead of using 5x SD-300's you would use 1x SD-300 which takes up 25m3 space and is 1 drone and would have the cumulative stats of all 5 drones. Thus getting around the stacking penalty. Medium sized drones would take 50m3 space for 1, and heavy 125m3. Make it so it still takes up all 5x drone slots though so someone can't launch 5x new SD-300s

ECM drones are way too good right now and really need to be turned downwards.

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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2012-11-03 17:59:07 UTC
Timothia Hodges wrote:
Does scanning really need to be made harder?


YES!

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#174 - 2012-11-03 17:59:14 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
I'll just leave this here.. http://themittani.com/features/ecm-not-nerf-we-deserve-fix-we-need

ECM needs an overhaul, nerfing range, adding a bunch of skill to effect will do nothing and might even cause more problems along the way.

That website is **** and that article just proves it. Ugh

Website is indeed ****, but article is pretty much in line with what has been suggested repeatedly over the years .. not by me mind you, I want the jam mechanic gone as cinematic mechanics have no place outside of single player games, but I have no idea what to replace it with.

Makes a lot of sense to create a variable jam duration, smaller ships will unfortunately still be raped by ECM as they generally get the full cycle, but for larger ships lock times takes the place of part of the duration and if/when damps are sorted an ECM/Damp combo will be the way to go against larger hulls.

Problem for me remains the effect itself and that my precious light ships can be removed for the entire duration of a skirmish .. frig/dessie battles rarely go beyond 30s unless it is some gayass kiting contest.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-11-03 17:59:26 UTC
I am looking forward for these changes to go live - but it won't stop ECM QQ post since this tweak proves that the more threads about it are written (not how many people are concerned), the more likely it's going to be changed. Shocked

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-11-03 18:10:10 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
I'll just leave this here.. http://themittani.com/features/ecm-not-nerf-we-deserve-fix-we-need

ECM needs an overhaul, nerfing range, adding a bunch of skill to effect will do nothing and might even cause more problems along the way.

That website is **** and that article just proves it. Ugh

Website is indeed ****, but article is pretty much in line with what has been suggested repeatedly over the years .. not by me mind you, I want the jam mechanic gone as cinematic mechanics have no place outside of single player games, but I have no idea what to replace it with.

Makes a lot of sense to create a variable jam duration, smaller ships will unfortunately still be raped by ECM as they generally get the full cycle, but for larger ships lock times takes the place of part of the duration and if/when damps are sorted an ECM/Damp combo will be the way to go against larger hulls.

Problem for me remains the effect itself and that my precious light ships can be removed for the entire duration of a skirmish .. frig/dessie battles rarely go beyond 30s unless it is some gayass kiting contest.

The real issue is people trying to keep the complete loss of locking. That is a terrible, terrible way to start. Any suggestions or ideas need to start from the ground up. Forget everything about the current form of ECM and do not begin to make a suggestion that is based on a 'all or nothing' mechanic.
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#177 - 2012-11-03 18:22:28 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Damps will still be useless.


Damps are good now, they'll be even better after the ship changes and damp changes. A celestis can shut down two snipers like tier 3 battlecruisers at 100km with good skills each damp is -51% locking range, how is that useless?
fukier
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2012-11-03 18:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Marlona Sky wrote:
The real issue is people trying to keep the complete loss of locking. That is a terrible, terrible way to start. Any suggestions or ideas need to start from the ground up. Forget everything about the current form of ECM and do not begin to make a suggestion that is based on a 'all or nothing' mechanic.


3 ideas for ecm

one: make ecm the tracking disrupters for missiles

two:
make ecm reduce the max targets you can lock.

tech I = 1 less target

tech 2 = 1.5 targets

you can always target atleast one target.

three:

instead of making it chance based for you not to lock its chance based for weapons to have a reduced damage in the applied damage formula (this would be outside of the tracking foumula) like they did for titan tracking but make it a mod that makes a simular effect. where damage is calcuated as = chance to hit against x (x is a random number and if chance to his is greater then you get damage if its lower then you dont do damage) what i am suggesting is ecm affects how x is generated... thus increase its chance to be greater then 0.5 thus making is harder to do damage.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#179 - 2012-11-03 18:29:58 UTC
:D ECM nerf idea...

Make ECM a high chance to break lock module, limit how many can be fitted to your ships by adding some sort of stacking penality (4 would be most optimal, anything more is not useful)

When the ECM breaks lock, the target can begin relocking again right away... the cycle time could be reduced to 10 sec. and jamming strenght doubled (or something), you would be able to jam most ships often, even perma jamming stuff when you take targeting time into consideration if you ballance the numbers right, ECM will be more useful vs slow locking ships, but frigs and cruisers can relock fairly quick compared to a bs (depending on size of target)

you could use damps together with the ecm to get even better results.


and again, the most needed nerf for retribution is duration of jams from ECM drones... it should only break locks like the ECM burst and such.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
fukier
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2012-11-03 18:36:47 UTC
Gneeznow wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Damps will still be useless.


Damps are good now, they'll be even better after the ship changes and damp changes. A celestis can shut down two snipers like tier 3 battlecruisers at 100km with good skills each damp is -51% locking range, how is that useless?



on grid probing is the problem to take full effect of the mod... as you said 100km but snipping used to mean around 180km which will result in you getting probed and interdicted and die to close range ahacs...

so damps are great they just need to fix on grid probing...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.