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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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fukier
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-11-03 03:09:10 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just remove ECM Caldari completely.


Fixed that for you.

Are you implying that without ECM in its current form Caldari has a worthless ship lineup? Are you seriously saying this?? Do you even play the game????


Can anyone say "Heavy missile nerf??" And what exactly will a dedicated Caldari pilot be flying after patch?



i heard they boosted hybrids.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#122 - 2012-11-03 03:28:46 UTC
Changes in values alone are nothing. What you really should consider doing is fight against permajamming and all other forms of rendering an opposing ship totally useless by simply stacking a crapload of EW mods (in volumes sufficient to suppress gangs) against one single target.

Meh...

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2012-11-03 03:37:20 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


Not to mention that even if you do kill the drones, just getting jammed once before they die is often enough to lose you the fight.


is it not the purpose to get an advantage in a fight by ewar somehow which means loosing or winning ? you can counter the ecm with implants and modules. cant you ?
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2012-11-03 04:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
It's about time that something's done about ECM.

It is one of the biggest killers of small gang fights. Perhaps also making it less effective to stack all ECM on a single target?
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#125 - 2012-11-03 04:51:25 UTC
serras bang wrote:
Theo Ramone wrote:
Since we're going to reduce the effects of ECM's can we also get some skills to reduce the effects of energy nuet/vamp?

Maybe a skill which hardens your capacitor to make x amount protected from modules that neut/vamp the cap levels?

Frankly, in the "Oh jesus run" list of ships the ewar ranks pretty low. The energy war ships (I'm looking at you pilgrim and curse) scare the bejesus out of me. I dont see too many solo rooks and falcons. Cant really say the same of pilgrims and curses.

ETA:

Oh, can you buff the tank on the ewar ships if your nerfing the jam abilities. Seeing s the jam chance is the only tank.....It would be nice to have a little bit of backup to the increased chance of failure thats coming.


defens against vamp ? isnt that called a cap battery ?

Cap battery? Isn't that called a module that uses up FAR too much CPU and PG for minimal gain aside from a very small counter to a strong mechanic in game?

Lets be honest, their fitting requirements need to be brought down a bit before they'll see any casual use.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#126 - 2012-11-03 05:21:50 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Stat tweaks are great, but I urge you to keep looking at the core ECM mechanic itself, rather than simply its application. I still love reducing jam length with sensor strength, bringing ECM into more of a lock-breaker role that can be combined with Scan resolution dampening to create a synergistic permajam effect that relies on player skill, not slot machine probability to be effective.

Making ECM drones break locks only would be a great place to start, as they'd be a nuisance at the 1 vs 1 level but not completely imbalance a fight, and could scale up to a fleet level where a CLOUD of drones can create the permajam effect, but not a simple wing of EC-300's.

I'd also look at the sensor damp drones at this time too, there might be a tweak or two there that can make them more viable and dovetail well with the rest of the iterations you're working on here.

Also, as we've discussed internally, you really need to address the scannability factor in conjunction with increasing sensor strength through skills, if thats the way you go. Having a penalty built into command links would be a great place to start, but command ships are by no means the only ships that people want to hide from probes, so please consider this if you must go with a skill buff so we're not fixing one problem only to create another.

As a fully trained ECM pilot I have often held debates over what I think would be too much of a nerf to ECM mechanics. However you ideas here are REALLY good and I would actually really like to see them take place.
So you have a separate thread outlining these ideas? I would love to discuss it further but not break the flow of this thread.

On topic, pretty happy with the changes and making EWAR much stronger when deployed by its specialist ships.
Not sure how I feel about the ECM def skills as it's just going to become another mandatory skill set for almost every pilot, the effects will be huge on some ships compared to others as well. It's already pretty hard to jam EWAR and Logistics ships using ECCM these skills might send them way over the ability to be jammed.

Okay I just did a very basic test. a max skill Falcon (basic 1600 plate fitting) with a Minmatar jammer overheated vs a Scimitar with 1x racial ECCM and a full set of high-end ECCM implants has a 23.63% chance to jam.
Seems like it's not too broken to add these skills, I look forward to testing them soon.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2012-11-03 05:31:07 UTC
Can one of the Loki Offensive Subs get a TP bonus then?

The Guns of Knowledge 
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2012-11-03 05:33:45 UTC
Racial sensor compensation skills you say?

Well I know what my first purchase on log in on December 4th is now. Been hoping for these forever, just hoping I'm not still dreaming.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#129 - 2012-11-03 07:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Wow, there should be a law against posting threads like this when I am indisposed or in the very least they should be locked until I get up after a hard nights work ....

Good that you have the balls to go here, but I fear you are not going far enough (yeah, yeah, I read the baby steps line but still).
- ECM could do with further a slight reduction on unbonused hulls. Always been devastating for frigs/dessies as the sensors are so poor that it matters not who/what wields the infernal modules . one cycle equals the average duration of a light fight after all.
- ECM drones, why have you not eradicated them, either remove from game until you figure out what to do with them or try them out as lockbreakers instead of jammers .. pretty sure they will shine as breakers.
PS: The mechanics of the ECM could use a look at, forced thumb twiddling has no place in a multi-player game. Don't know what/who/why but I have spent far too long staring at an Eve cinematic to appreciate the mechanics ... pretty as Eve is I prefer to play it, not watch it Big smile

- Damps will still be pretty 'meh', maybe add a slight scan bonus when fitting them to assist with using them as counter against the evil ECM or tweak the bonused hulls by upping same attribute. First lock wins in ECM/Damp contests, Caldari have more mids so don't notice the forced SeBo as much .....

- TP's are still not used in significant numbers for me to make a qualified judgment .... only really seen them from rats which have marginal stacking penalty. Something more might be required, maybe rename/reimagine them them to be :insertfancyphysicstermhere: projectors that in addition to sig blow-out affects target agility/mass or something .. not much, just enough to be noticeable when fully stacked.

- TD's, provided the plan is still to add them as counters to missiles, need the full ECM treatment. Make them a waste of space on unbonused hulls and increse said bonuses to match. They WILL become omni-present, at least make it a choice rather than a necessity.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#130 - 2012-11-03 08:30:50 UTC
Tracking Disruptors still get about 88% fully bonused up at 190km range on t1 ships... problem?

1 tracking disruptor at that range can reduce a 300km railgun (about the max range a rokh can go even though it can't lock) down to 36 optimal.... that's the most extreme example of how OP the module is, especially if you introduce it to missile warfare eventually rather than make another mod. Even if that's not the case... any normal range ship getting screwed offensively by 1 module is pretty insane.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#131 - 2012-11-03 08:32:52 UTC
Nice stuff.

ECM drone suggestion- halve their strength, and extend ship-based drone damage bonus to cover all EWAR drone effects, and change their jamming times:

EC-300: 0.5 / 5s
EC-600: 0.75 / 10s
EC-900: 1 / 20s

.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-11-03 08:55:41 UTC
Dear CCP Fozzie,
concerning problems with the following skill: Long Distance Jamming. It gives Bonus to optimal ewar range.
Could we possibly somehow fix that skill?
I mean if I train it I have better range so I can jam at longer distance but otherwise I destroy my good jamming and tracking disrupting abilities at short range. Right?
That means otherwise: If I train this skill I decide that my char isn´t good at short range but and long range FOREVER, because I can´t make it undone.
Couldn´t we switch the nonus somehow on falloff?

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Super Stallion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-11-03 08:58:53 UTC
As one who dabbles in ECM:

-Changing ECM to only unlocking would be bad. It guarantees that the target will be able to sick drones on the ECM ship without the ECM ship having a way to prevent it. Depending on the drones used, you just nerfed the ECM ships. They would be unable to perform their primary function.

-Fozzie's change will be good. It will eliminate many of the 100% chance to jam situations that we have in game. right now, a kitsune can perma-lock a rifter with one t4 module can one skill at level 5. Other situations like this also occur. And, despite using it from time to time, Ill be the first to admit that it is a bit over powered.


-After reading the comments, I get the feeling that many have not gone through the math on how ECM works. A 25% boost in sensor strength is a huge bonus for ships facing ECM. Assuming that the ship isnt in a situation where a 100% jam rate occurs, when using one module, youll see a 25% less jams. With more than one module, the reductions in jams actually increases beyond 25%.

I think the only real fix to the situation is to buff ECCM so that it has another function when not facing an ECM ship. Perhaps have ECCM modules provide a bonus to all remote buffs received. Or, scrap the system for something else.
Super Stallion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#134 - 2012-11-03 09:01:11 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Dear CCP Fozzie,
concerning problems with the following skill: Long Distance Jamming. It gives Bonus to optimal ewar range.
Could we possibly somehow fix that skill?
I mean if I train it I have better range so I can jam at longer distance but otherwise I destroy my good jamming and tracking disrupting abilities at short range. Right?
That means otherwise: If I train this skill I decide that my char isn´t good at short range but and long range FOREVER, because I can´t make it undone.
Couldn´t we switch the nonus somehow on falloff?



I do not believe that long distance jamming has any effect on attempting to jam an opponent at closer ranges. All it does is extend your optimal.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#135 - 2012-11-03 09:14:08 UTC
Quote:
do not believe that long distance jamming has any effect on attempting to jam an opponent at closer ranges. All it does is extend your optimal.


As I understand it ewar works at optimal - falloff.
Training better optimal would mean that I am not so good at shorter range, right?
Not so much drama with ECm here but much drama with TDs.
I already dicovered that TDs do not work so good at shorter ranges.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#136 - 2012-11-03 09:41:27 UTC
is there any chance of you guys fixing meta 4 and t2 ecm jammers. currently the t2 version has no advantage over the meta 4, while the meta 4 has reduced cap use compared with t2...

surely the extra cap useage should end up with a slightly higher jam strength?

OMG when can i get a pic here
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#137 - 2012-11-03 10:07:15 UTC
Quote:
*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)


guess i need to spend 3mil SP on more int/mem crap :(

There is no Bob.

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Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#138 - 2012-11-03 10:29:05 UTC
Fozzie, we need a serious buff to the tank of the falcon to go with this general nerf to it's only tank: ECM.

Otherwise I'm looking at yet another ship to spin in my hanger.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-11-03 10:32:34 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Tracking Disruptors still get about 88% fully bonused up at 190km range on t1 ships... problem?

1 tracking disruptor at that range can reduce a 300km railgun (about the max range a rokh can go even though it can't lock) down to 36 optimal.... that's the most extreme example of how OP the module is, especially if you introduce it to missile warfare eventually rather than make another mod. Even if that's not the case... any normal range ship getting screwed offensively by 1 module is pretty insane.


Your math is wrong. A TD on a ship with a 7.5% bonus is a -65% optimal reduction with these changes. The TD's optimal is 108 km as well, not 190 km. In fact, TD optimal + 2x falloff = 180 km.
Finarfin
Cerulean Void
#140 - 2012-11-03 10:35:09 UTC
Maybe the 4 new skills should be recombined into one. Roughly 3M SP just to diminish the effects of ECM is a bit rough.
Having these will quickly become mandatory. It is like learning skills all over again.