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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#21 - 2012-11-02 19:11:31 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
@CCP Fozzie why can't the scorp/all bs be a proper battleship and actually focus on killing stuff instead?


We have a bunch of long term plans for battleships, but in general we are ok with the unsual role the Scorp plays.


You don't think its range and tank are too much for a e-war ship?

They did just nerf its range, you know.

Besides, tiericide man, it's going to change ALL the things.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-11-02 19:11:52 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
@CCP Fozzie why can't the scorp/all bs be a proper battleship and actually focus on killing stuff instead?


We have a bunch of long term plans for battleships, but in general we are ok with the unsual role the Scorp plays.


You don't think its range and tank are too much for a e-war ship?


as a battleship and a pretty big commitment to a fight,

1. its tank is pretty horrible, nothing to write home about when armor tanked
2. its range is reasonable considering its horrid ability to stay at that range

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
fukier
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-02 19:13:35 UTC
So does this mean unscanable tech iii is back?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#24 - 2012-11-02 19:19:01 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)


Oh Hell yes.


It would be cooler if a ship's sensor strength played into more then just ECM.


Just saw this. I think it would be interesting to see sensor strength as a counter to the effectiveness of Sensor Damps. You could up the base power of Damps, and implement a formula that adjusts their strength downward in proportion to Sensor Strength. Thus, you can counter Sensor Damps by implementing a mix of ECCM and SeBo's into your build, but you have to have a lot of spare mids, or supporting logis to make a large effect on the strength of them.

I dunno. I just don't like how the only counter to Damps is a module that suffers heavy stacking penalties.
Lili Lu
#25 - 2012-11-02 19:19:30 UTC
fukier wrote:
So does this mean unscanable tech iii is back?

Possibly at least for the first patch of Retribution. I suppose the followup patch may have changes to make those ships probe-able again. Or the long awaited off-grid booster mechanic abolition. Then the unprobability problem will matter much less.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#26 - 2012-11-02 19:22:57 UTC
ECM is currently the only EWAR (excluding neuts, nos) which does not have a stacking penalty associated with it. Damps, TPs, and TDs all get a stacking penalty applied against their net effect on a target.

Is or was a stacking penalty being applied to them ever under consideration in addition to the changes you outlined? And if so, would it also apply to ECM drones?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#27 - 2012-11-02 19:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Stat tweaks are great, but I urge you to keep looking at the core ECM mechanic itself, rather than simply its application. I still love reducing jam length with sensor strength, bringing ECM into more of a lock-breaker role that can be combined with Scan resolution dampening to create a synergistic permajam effect that relies on player skill, not slot machine probability to be effective.

Making ECM drones break locks only would be a great place to start, as they'd be a nuisance at the 1 vs 1 level but not completely imbalance a fight, and could scale up to a fleet level where a CLOUD of drones can create the permajam effect, but not a simple wing of EC-300's.

I'd also look at the sensor damp drones at this time too, there might be a tweak or two there that can make them more viable and dovetail well with the rest of the iterations you're working on here.

Also, as we've discussed internally, you really need to address the scannability factor in conjunction with increasing sensor strength through skills, if thats the way you go. Having a penalty built into command links would be a great place to start, but command ships are by no means the only ships that people want to hide from probes, so please consider this if you must go with a skill buff so we're not fixing one problem only to create another.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-11-02 19:25:11 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
It would be cooler if a ship's sensor strength played into more then just ECM.


I've had a concept floating around in my head for ages now for adapting the "jam strength vs sensor strength" mechanic that ECM uses and applying it to the other forms of primary racial e-war but never quite got to a stage where I could write it up properly.

Also, a link while we're on the subject of e-war: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1863090

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-11-02 19:26:40 UTC
YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME FOZZIE

Follow me on twitter
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#30 - 2012-11-02 19:38:26 UTC
I know you guys are scared shitless of implementing anything that will actually change the metagame, but c'mon

It takes years to get to this point?

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-11-02 19:40:13 UTC
Just remove ECM completely.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2012-11-02 19:42:36 UTC
Was expecting a LOT more for the ECM changes..

how about JUST fixing ECM drones? I can deal with the rest.. its the drones that drive me up the wall.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#33 - 2012-11-02 19:43:26 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
ECM is currently the only EWAR (excluding neuts, nos) which does not have a stacking penalty associated with it. Damps, TPs, and TDs all get a stacking penalty applied against their net effect on a target.

Is or was a stacking penalty being applied to them ever under consideration in addition to the changes you outlined? And if so, would it also apply to ECM drones?

ECM don't really work this way as you are either jammed or not and the jamming chance is calculated when the module cycle.

I'm a bit sad though by this ECM change, because that mean that unbonused ECM will be even more useless.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-11-02 19:46:28 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Was expecting a LOT more for the ECM changes..

how about JUST fixing ECM drones? I can deal with the rest.. its the drones that drive me up the wall.


smartbomb.
Man Fantastic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-11-02 19:47:19 UTC
No love for the Kitsune?
Tuceev
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-11-02 19:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuceev
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Here's what we currently have on our plate for Retribution:

ECM
*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)




Will these skills function like shield/armor compensation skills and only be effective when fitting a sensor strength module, or more of a blanket skill where training it grants an instant bonus to sensor strength?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-11-02 19:52:10 UTC
No seriously, just remove all EW drones for now too. ECM is, has been, and from the looks of it, will remain the worst game mechanic in the history of all MMO games.

Locking a target is 99% of everything when it comes to combat. Why you decided to introduce a mechanic that removes players from the game for 20+ seconds at a time is dumber than a box of ****.
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#38 - 2012-11-02 19:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Viribus
Varesk wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Was expecting a LOT more for the ECM changes..

how about JUST fixing ECM drones? I can deal with the rest.. its the drones that drive me up the wall.


smartbomb.




There's a lot of reasons why (small and medium) smartbombs are a bad solution

-ECM drones will finish their jam cycle if they die in the middle of it, so even if you blow them off in the first cycle that's still 20 seconds of being jammed. More practically, with a medium SB, it's potentially 40-60 seconds of jamming

-They use shitloads of cap

-You can't use them on gates or stations, which are popular places for fights

-They take a long time to kill drones anyway

Unless you mean smartbombs on a fleet scale, which makes sense 'cause you're in scrub legion and only fly in blobs lmao

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Lili Lu
#39 - 2012-11-02 19:55:37 UTC
Tuceev wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Here's what we currently have on our plate for Retribution:

ECM
*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)




Will these skills function like shield/armor compensation skills and only be effective when fitting a sensor strength module, or more of a blanket skill where training it grants an instant bonus to sensor strength?

It appears to me it will be like long range targeting or signature analysis. A plain flat bonus applied on whatever the ship stats are for senssor strength.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2012-11-02 19:55:46 UTC
Viribus wrote:
Varesk wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Was expecting a LOT more for the ECM changes..

how about JUST fixing ECM drones? I can deal with the rest.. its the drones that drive me up the wall.


smartbomb.




There's a lot of reasons why (small and medium) smartbombs are a bad solution

-ECM drones will finish their jam cycle if they die in the middle of it, so even if you blow them off in the first cycle that's still 20 seconds of being jammed. More practically, with a medium SB, it's potentially 40-60 seconds of jamming

-They use shitloads of cap

-You can't use them on gates or stations, which are popular places for fights

-They take a long time to kill drones anyway

Unless you mean smartbombs on a fleet scale, which makes sense 'cause you're in scrub legion and only fly in blobs lmao


Not to mention that even if you do kill the drones, just getting jammed once before they die is often enough to lose you the fight.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish