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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#881 - 2011-10-19 16:26:28 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:


But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)


Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#882 - 2011-10-19 16:31:39 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?



No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office.

For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#883 - 2011-10-19 16:34:46 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:


But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)


Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one?


I'm trying to justify keeping the customs offices in low sec NPC owned. The rewards with doing PI in low-sec now is much greater than that of high-sec, as it should be with the risk of dying and all. If the import/export taxes are a bit higher on the low-sec NPC owned customs offices and if they stay NPC owned, people won't whine and complain as they are doing now. just trying to find a middle ground here.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Holy One
Privat Party
#884 - 2011-10-19 16:37:47 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?



No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office.

For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI.


This and:

1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp.

2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game.

:)
gfldex
#885 - 2011-10-19 16:39:03 UTC
Meldan Anstian wrote:
PCO's don't make economic sense. It takes 13,333 robotics units to pay for 1 PCO, at 100% tax. Thats 4444 hours of production, just turning consumer electronics and mechanical parts into robotics, not making the electronics or mechanical parts. Thats over 6 advanced industrial facilities going 24/7 for a month. I don't think there are many planets that can produce that much, month after month.


You imply that the only thing that can be launched from a planet is PI products. I somehow doubt it will stay that way.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#886 - 2011-10-19 16:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
gfldex wrote:
Meldan Anstian wrote:
PCO's don't make economic sense. It takes 13,333 robotics units to pay for 1 PCO, at 100% tax. Thats 4444 hours of production, just turning consumer electronics and mechanical parts into robotics, not making the electronics or mechanical parts. Thats over 6 advanced industrial facilities going 24/7 for a month. I don't think there are many planets that can produce that much, month after month.


You imply that the only thing that can be launched from a planet is PI products. I somehow doubt it will stay that way.

I agree, but CCP has yet to mention any of their future plans with planets and DUST 514 in an official capacity. This is one more thing they are releasing piecemeal. I thought that they learned their lesson with the AUR market....

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#887 - 2011-10-19 16:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:


But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)


Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one?


I'm trying to justify keeping the customs offices in low sec NPC owned. The rewards with doing PI in low-sec now is much greater than that of high-sec, as it should be with the risk of dying and all. If the import/export taxes are a bit higher on the low-sec NPC owned customs offices and if they stay NPC owned, people won't whine and complain as they are doing now. just trying to find a middle ground here.


Okay to you are talking specifically about the one man band that does PI in low sec and is unable to defend a customs office if he/she wishes to anchor one...

Non of us know how this new feature will effect the game but personally i don't see why a group would destroy a POCO unless they wanted to take that planet over to earn isk from the taxes, so then why would they hike the tax up or exclude people from using the POCO?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Innar Mong
Fourth District Sentinels
The Caldari Fourth District
#888 - 2011-10-19 16:47:59 UTC
The more I read folks opinions here, the more I see this change as a way to further those that hold SOV and keep down everyone who does not.

I do have an actual question for the PI Dev team; it is:

What are your specific goals with this new set of features? Has this actually been stated?

It is possible I have missed that, if so, I'm sorry and if you'd point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#889 - 2011-10-19 16:50:12 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:


But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)


Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one?


I'm trying to justify keeping the customs offices in low sec NPC owned. The rewards with doing PI in low-sec now is much greater than that of high-sec, as it should be with the risk of dying and all. If the import/export taxes are a bit higher on the low-sec NPC owned customs offices and if they stay NPC owned, people won't whine and complain as they are doing now. just trying to find a middle ground here.


Okay to you are talking specifically about the one man band that does PI in low sec and is unable to defend a customs office if he/she wishes to anchor one...

Non of us know how this new feature will effect the game but personally i don't see why a group would destroy a POCO unless they wanted to take that planet over to earn isk from the taxes, so then why would they hike the tax up or exclude people from using the POCO?


Decent point, but you are forgetting the people in eve who do things just to see if they could do them. If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#890 - 2011-10-19 16:51:25 UTC
Holy One wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?



No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office.

For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI.


This and:

1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp.

2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game.



Is it out of the question for these PI alts to contact the dominant force (who also own POCO) in a chosen system and say: "Hey, i would like to continue me PI operation in your system and i'm willing to pay the 10% tax. Please make me blue to your corp."?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
pussnheels
Viziam
#891 - 2011-10-19 16:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
44 pages in less than 48 hours i am impressed

i just repeating my opinion then

While i like the idea the way like it stands now i think will not really work ; there are some good valid points made against this in low sec


so why not instead of taxes rent custom space out for a limited time period to as many individuals you want could be done in contractform i think

or
why not XXX isk/m³

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Miraqu
Kneipenterroristen.
#892 - 2011-10-19 16:54:09 UTC
Maybe CCP could implement those changes in Null and leave the rest of EvE as it currently is?

They could see how it is used and whats wrong at least.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#893 - 2011-10-19 16:54:24 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Holy One wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?



No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office.

For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI.


This and:

1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp.

2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game.



Is it out of the question for these PI alts to contact the dominant force (who also own POCO) in a chosen system and say: "Hey, i would like to continue me PI operation in your system and i'm willing to pay the 10% tax. Please make me blue to your corp."?

Very possible, but those standings usually come with a price. Remember, nothing in life is free, and goes doubly for eve. I can see an alliance that can defend these new structures anchoring them and then charging people for standings, possible a cost of 50 million ISK or more just to get standings. That's not including the cost of actually setting up the PI or possible standing resets.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#894 - 2011-10-19 16:54:34 UTC
POCO's are gonna be griefed 24/7. Looks like using lowsec for PI is now not gonna be possible for a solo player. As it stands today, it's a fun minigame sneaking in and out of lowsec with PI goods as a solo player. Kinda like roleplaying a smuggler. Seems like the fun is over.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#895 - 2011-10-19 16:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
I just lost a very eloquent post on this matter, and am not happy about it. So you will get a quick and dirty recap.

1: Remove the ability to restrict access to PCO's via standings.

Without it the only way to restrict easy (non-rocket) access to a particular planet is via 100% tax or by blowing up any PCO's at the planet.

100% tax works for resources that you wish restricted to benefitting the corp (not the members of your corp). You would not do this if you wanted your corp mates to be able to use this planet, or for your own personal gain.

Blowing PCO's up keeps you and your corp mates from using those resources easily.

Eliminating the ability to keep people from using a PCO via standings forces more PCO's to be set with reasonable tax rates, thus making it easier for people outside of a given corp to make use of those resources (whether the owner of the PCO likes it or not).

2: Make the Sig Radius of PCU's very small.

This makes it impractical to take them out easily via capital hot drop, thus making it more difficult (or at least far less desirable) for Null Sec power block's to cyno into low sec to take them out for simple amusement.

Sub Cap use could, and would, still happen... but usually for a purpose instead of a random event.

Pirate groups would still be an issue popping PCO's in Low Sec for fun. Making the classic EVE decision of flight or fight is not a bad thing in my opinion, since these groups usually are a realistic size for many empire based corps to consider taking on... especially since the defender has the advantage of knowing exactly when and where the engagement (post reinforcement) will take place.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#896 - 2011-10-19 16:57:54 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons.


You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#897 - 2011-10-19 16:57:54 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
POCO's are gonna be griefed 24/7. Looks like using lowsec for PI is now not gonna be possible for a solo player. As it stands today, it's a fun minigame sneaking in and out of lowsec with PI goods as a solo player. Kinda like roleplaying a smuggler. Seems like the fun is over.


I'm not sure about anyone else, but I know that I'll be doing the camping. Why risk a hauler full of PI goods when you could risk a bomber and get PI goods for free, along with a nice shiny kill mail. Not to mention selling the PI gods back to them on the market in the closest station.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#898 - 2011-10-19 16:58:00 UTC
Well, at least the zero sec alliance producers will generate more profit risk free. And with all the NAPing going on in those parts of space it must be nice to finally get targets you can steamroll in low sec to get increase your own revenue.

The CSM is truly working as intended. After all, making one game style able to completely dominate all others is really adding to the sandbox.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#899 - 2011-10-19 16:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Sable Moran wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?

Cause here's the scenario:

- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue
- Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got)
- Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail
- Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue
- Corp waits for next sucker

Hence a searchability function is essential!


THIS OMG THIS!!!

count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL

EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy:

Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes.
Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate
Step 3.)....


Step 3.) Another corp jumps in with a bait hauler.
Step 4.) Pirate corp engages
Step 5.) Second corp jumps in the rest of their fleet and beats the **** out of the pirates

Dominus Alterai wrote:
Step 4.) PROFIT!!!


Indeed.


Step 6.) POCO's become pure low sec battle grounds particularly over Temperate and Barren worlds
Step 7.) No one has the ability to see through CCP's rose colored glasses and prefer the economic incentives (ITs the Kill mail stupid) [no offence intended]
Step 8.) CCP goes back to the drawing board inorder to try and socialyl rig low sec to fit Dust 514 (And I like Dust btw)


Sarcasm aside I'm gonna call out CCP Omen and Team Pi on one important thing:


When you tell us you'll watch how things go... you're telling us you have no clue how much this might break the game!



Instead of the: OOoooo see EVE Community how shiny this is (don't look under there).... everything will be perfect by fundamentally altering the most recent industrial addition to EVE; which is the most complicatedly coded game in the entire industry! Rose Colored Glasses~!!!!!

Why not: Okay it's like this EVE Community - even though we should have started PI this way in the first place, we did it backwards and are now trying to fix it. And we need your help. We have a working code, but need additional input so that we just 'fracture' your game a little, instead of breaking it and further decrease our subscriber base... and do so just after one of the largest population drops in the games running history - which was so bad it caused Hilmar to openly appologize to all of you [[which was appreciated btw]]


CCP and Team Pi we know you need to address Planteary Interaction... but DO NOT give us a beta for you to tweak - I have no problem with increased risk... so long as I have the additional search/ informational tools to determine if that risk is worth taking.

Risk Is Good - but it needs the be coupled with knowledge to make it work right!!!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Davelantor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#900 - 2011-10-19 16:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Davelantor
so, in best situation ... a PvP corp will take over the POCO's and set 10% tax (not to mention it will be most likely 25% .. because lets face it .. people are assholes) ... because our corp cant divide resources to camp a spot in middle of nowhere just for a single PI guy can enjoy 0% tax ... NO .. instead now we pay 10% tax .. AND have to compete with WH and 0.0 PI noobs that can and will drive the prices as low as they can because they dont pay any tax for production.

Not to mention while this is happening, a typical new starter that will be very likely confined to high sec. cant get any profit, because he doesnt have enough isk to export the material from the planet ... AWESOME :D