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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Laserham Lincoln
Ice Fire Warriors
#741 - 2011-10-19 06:22:28 UTC
I think that this is a very bad idea for low sec. With no passive defense, the PCO will become an easy target for any fleet with even the slightest inclination towards griefing or hassling people. There are two main problems with this:

1) The cost of building a PCO is prohibitive. It seems like these things will not last long in low sec, and with them being so expensive, I see people rapidly giving up.

2) With greater tax rates and risk from flying to structures that are going to frequently be under attack, pilots who brave low sec for greater PI returns will give up and stick to high sec. This will further reduce the number of pilots in low sec, which is bad. Low sec is already pretty anemic.

PI was one of the few economic activities that an individual or small corps could engage in in a meaningful way in low sec or 0.0. As it's currently described, the PCO system will give larger groups the ability to totally shut down an individual or small corp's ability to do PI. Not everyone wants to be part of a giant alliance.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#742 - 2011-10-19 06:24:46 UTC
Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?

Cause here's the scenario:

- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue
- Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got)
- Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail
- Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue
- Corp waits for next sucker

Hence a searchability function is essential!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#743 - 2011-10-19 06:26:16 UTC
White Sharisa wrote:
I really do see this as a concern from someone like me that does PI in lowsec, sure call this a PI is broken rant if you like if not read on. I don't mind that you are making these changes in an attempt to make lowsec more inhabited and give the pirates an income and an invested interest to live there, by all means do but be reasonable.

As it stands sure you will make PI 5 times better in low and highsec but with giving the POCO owner the ability to set access restrictions to whatever level they like and to let them set the Customs costs if by off chance you get a pirate corp that will allow outsiders to use the POCO to anything they like its clear they will as there will be no incentive for the effort to protect this POCO i cannot see them allowing you access to it without paying through the ******* for it.

So as a non pirate your left with the option of hoping to god you beat these guys to it after patch DT to set one up and you won't be able to beat the blobs that will now move in for this feature. Or your left with the option of hoping to god they allow public access to the POCO but hope they don't charge obscene fees (I think we all know they will)

Last option is pretty much everyone that does PI in lowsec and not a part of a pirate corp/alliance will move back to highsec to the planets CCP think they have just buffed by 500% only to find thousands of other people forced to do the same thing.

Don't take this as a rant CCP i do like the concept behind the idea, but you have clearly ballsed this up on the first attempt.


I can definitely see where you're coming from, but smart pirates will set one up and not charge a whole lot. most likely, they'll charge less than high-sec in order to make it profitable for them. How? Well, seeing as there won't be many of these in a system (3-5 maybe) they'll be very easy to afk camp with a cloaked up bomber/recon/T3. It's not the tax rates or access to PI that bothers me. It's actually getting it out that's going to be the trouble. I'm seeing the use of battleships and deep space transports with lot's of warp stabs doing PI hauls. That means less output as you'll be able to carry MUCH less off planet at a time unless you can set up some sort of courier contract directly from the POCO to the nearest high sec system for some intrepid low-sec resident to try. BUT then that goes right back to the POCOs being camped by stealth ships.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#744 - 2011-10-19 06:27:01 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?

Cause here's the scenario:

- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue
- Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got)
- Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail
- Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue
- Corp waits for next sucker

Hence a searchability function is essential!



Btw the only way to fix this - is to make POCO's dockable....

yep that's right a totally ridiculos suggestion, but I'm starting to think that is what it would take to fix this very real scenario

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#745 - 2011-10-19 06:28:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?

Cause here's the scenario:

- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s)
- Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue
- Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got)
- Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail
- Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue
- Corp waits for next sucker

Hence a searchability function is essential!


THIS OMG THIS!!!

count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL

EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy:

Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes.
Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate
Step 3.)....
Step 4.) PROFIT!!!

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
White Sharisa
Doomheim
#746 - 2011-10-19 06:34:57 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
White Sharisa wrote:
I really do see this as a concern from someone like me that does PI in lowsec, sure call this a PI is broken rant if you like if not read on. I don't mind that you are making these changes in an attempt to make lowsec more inhabited and give the pirates an income and an invested interest to live there, by all means do but be reasonable.

As it stands sure you will make PI 5 times better in low and highsec but with giving the POCO owner the ability to set access restrictions to whatever level they like and to let them set the Customs costs if by off chance you get a pirate corp that will allow outsiders to use the POCO to anything they like its clear they will as there will be no incentive for the effort to protect this POCO i cannot see them allowing you access to it without paying through the ******* for it.

So as a non pirate your left with the option of hoping to god you beat these guys to it after patch DT to set one up and you won't be able to beat the blobs that will now move in for this feature. Or your left with the option of hoping to god they allow public access to the POCO but hope they don't charge obscene fees (I think we all know they will)

Last option is pretty much everyone that does PI in lowsec and not a part of a pirate corp/alliance will move back to highsec to the planets CCP think they have just buffed by 500% only to find thousands of other people forced to do the same thing.

Don't take this as a rant CCP i do like the concept behind the idea, but you have clearly ballsed this up on the first attempt.


I can definitely see where you're coming from, but smart pirates will set one up and not charge a whole lot. most likely, they'll charge less than high-sec in order to make it profitable for them. How? Well, seeing as there won't be many of these in a system (3-5 maybe) they'll be very easy to afk camp with a cloaked up bomber/recon/T3. It's not the tax rates or access to PI that bothers me. It's actually getting it out that's going to be the trouble. I'm seeing the use of battleships and deep space transports with lot's of warp stabs doing PI hauls. That means less output as you'll be able to carry MUCH less off planet at a time unless you can set up some sort of courier contract directly from the POCO to the nearest high sec system for some intrepid low-sec resident to try. BUT then that goes right back to the POCOs being camped by stealth ships.




I have never had transport issues and TBH i don't think the changes will affect this i currently have 9 toons doing PI on countless Lowsec planets and the added bullshit factor this has added to that operation means i will just shut it down and move it to high sec for the equal to lowsec returns they just gave me. What they haven't added is an incentive for me to keep any of my operation in lowsec nothing at all.

Again i am doubtful for the cost of maintaining and protecting their new asset and the risks it now comes with i am highly doubtful they would allow access or charge a reasonable fee for letting indy noobs like me to use it. So back to highsec with all the other thousands of people i will go.
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2011-10-19 06:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shayla Sh'inlux
I don't know in which lowsec space parts you people are doing your PI, but I haven't seen an awful lot of planets that are being used for PI. The idea that a "local pirate corp" could set them up and make some sort of return on their investment by setting up reasonable taxrates is hilarious. Nobody is using most of these planets to begin with.

I run a nice little production scheme in lowsec consisting of 5 planets to produce Rocket Fuel. It comes down to about 300 mil per month which isn't a huge deal, but it's nice and it doesn't take a lot of effort other than hauling stuff around every 2-3 days. Of course, once this "feature" comes out, I'll be forced to fork out 400 million isk (+train associated skills) to set up custom offices that can then be blown up in an hour or so by some bored pirates of which there are - trust me- plenty. On top of that pirates will now also know what to camp instead of having to guess and thus not bother.

So what will happen is I will stop doing PI, miss out on 300mil a month and spend the time I now spend hauling to run another anom or mission. Others will move it to hisec and once again lowsec will not be worth anyone's time.

I can see player controlled offices work for nulsec. It makes sense for WH space. It's utterly pointless for lowsec. If anything, lowsec offices should be cheaper than hisec ones so there is more profit to be had and people are given an incentive to do stuff in lowsec.
Deyionu
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#748 - 2011-10-19 06:42:15 UTC
I'm not sure which side of the fence I want to be on this one. I like the idea of putting more NPC controlled items into the hands of the players. But this just screams of to many unknowns. As the players we don't have access to the data so right now it just seems something that this is being forced for little to no reason and just might be another feature that is half baked and in the end adds little to no content.

So first off a few questions.
You stated that 50% of PI comes from high-sec. How much comes from low-sec and also how much comes from null-sec? What % of planets are used in each sec? What % of each planet type is used in each sec? Whats the avg player per planet ratio?

The last one is very important since so far I see "BUT YOU CAN TAX OTHERS" being the main "feature" of spending at min 75mil for these PCO. If they don't generate the desire tax income no one in their right mind will spend the ISK to put these out there being "landlords". The only people that will is the people that are forced to because of current PI production. Not to mention it will really suck for the people that happen to be the ONLY person on a planet. They are forced to shell out something along the lines of 2 years worth of taxes that can be easily be griefed by a single person or by medium sized gang (or larger) that the avg person won't be able to take on. Since the lost of even a BC doesn't justify protecting these structures since it would be more cost efficient just letting the PCO be killed and just placing a new one. Once that happens to many times you'll just see people move to high-sec. In this case its who will get bored/pissed off first, the attacker having to come back every other day or the guy having to buy and anchor the PCO.

Speaking of which I don't think that has been addressed yet. I assume if this structure is blown up everyone that had items stored in it would loss everything? Would any of the items drop as loot for the attackers?


I have to say whats currently being presented works EXTREMELY well for null-sec. Since the resident will most likely be using the resources around them and will be able to react if anything comes under attack. This idea doesn't work very well for low sec or WH PI. If anything its going to push even more people to run their PI in high sec and make low sec even less of an incentive to move people to/operate in.

But I really think the whole idea needs a overhaul. First off for high-sec make taxes based on standing to the controlling empire. Have it vary from 10 to 30% based on standing. 10% being +4.0 or higher and the extreme of 30% for someone with really bad standing. This can be carried over to low sec also so that it may promote something in faction warfare. For everything else have each player pay the current 5% (or w/e it is).

For new content allow players to centralize all outputted from planets within a system to a POS module and also allow it to be routed back down to the planets. First the player has to build and anchor a PCO at each planet they want to route to the POS. Second have a structure that is anchored outside of the POS that acts as the hub/storage (15km like a JB is a nice compromise). Force highest tier goods produced to always be routed to the hub (cant be stored on planet).

If an attacker wants he can incap the hub like any other POS module. This will stop all transfers to and from the planet but a planet will continue to make goods locally until the hub is repaired or is destroyed. If a hub is destroyed ALL PCO will be lost as well.

Since highest tier good is forced to be routed to the hub it provides a little incentive for people to actually want to blow them up to get something for their effort. The upkeep and potential lost of a POS I think is a balance for eliminating the need for people to move stuff from planet to planet to make higher tier goods.

I would like the idea of this being controlled remotely like the planets. Slap on a skill to use it and make the requirements somewhat high (since only people that would be using this would be people with 5 or more planets and high command center).

Lastly for null sec add something you can throw into the ihub that increases output on all planets in system by some % for each lvl.

Phew that was a lot of typing.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#749 - 2011-10-19 06:42:55 UTC
Sleeping Lady wrote:
Week 1 : PvP Corps move in and set the tax 100%


A corp that sets too high a tax rate isn't going to get any takers. Even if you're using PI as bait for those killmails to show how skilled you are at blowing up slow, fat, defenceless ships, you still need to have someone take the bait.

So you set up an 80M ISK bait. You set the tax rate to something that the Planeteers will actually use, then start blowing them up as they come to use that planet. Oh wait — you don't because they're naturally skittish creatures and won't so much as decloak their blockade runner if there's an unknown face in local.

In the meantime you start finding that another couple of million ISK a week isn't actually hurting your wallet at all: in fact, it makes sense to own more customs offices and encourage Planeteers to use your systems. No longer are you entirely reliant on grinding stupid L4 missions for your income: with a dozen-odd planets under your belt you can spend more time out in space collecting killmails of fail fit Rifters and Myrmidons!

Then you get the big fish poking their noses around: a few super capitals drop by to have a nibble, and you get to score some worthwhile killmails of foolish titan/supercarrier pilots who didn't realise just how heavily that planet was defended.

Which would you prefer on your kill board: a few dozen blockade runners, or one super carrier?

So in effect, Planeteers are the burley. The customs offices are the bait, and the fish you're actually hunting is overconfident capital/super capital pilots: and you have a decent income to support your planetary defence and Dust Puppies.

Or you could opt for a low sec devoid of purpose and entirely barren of any life and activity, and simply kill any Planeteers who happen by.

Choices & consequences. Sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Your choice coming back around to impact your future.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Destiny Forgotten
Woodland Creatures
#750 - 2011-10-19 06:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Forgotten
first off, i think this is brilliant and fun. While the intention and idea for what it could mean and what the actual norm will be are going to be a bit off. It will not only generate more revenue for corps across the board, it will surly drive the prices of all PI materials up, as I can see this being more a draw for non Indy players than the working class. For Null Sec this will be great in helping keep corporations going and fueling the war/indy machines. In low sec, where smaller corps and players risk much to make out a living this will most likely end PI in a number of areas. As piracy will be dominate and only large low sec corps will have a chance of surviving or paying a merc corp to assist them. And if said corp is large enough for that, they most likely would be in null. I have hopes, but not high ones. Still a great idea, don't get me wrong, players should be in control of everything
ovenproofjet
Gallifrey Industries
#751 - 2011-10-19 06:47:41 UTC
I would personally like that thank CCP for all the carebear tears this is/going to create Twisted
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#752 - 2011-10-19 06:49:29 UTC
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
Of course, once this "feature" comes out, I'll be forced to fork out 400 million isk (+train associated skills) to set up custom offices that can then be blown up in an hour or so by some bored pirates of which there are - trust me- plenty. On top of that pirates will now also know what to camp instead of having to guess and thus not bother.


I'm sure that there will be other people looking for "good fights" hanging out looking for bored pirates to shoot, too. Customs offices provide a point of interest to head to that is not a gate or station. No jumping games, no docking games, just honest to goodness shooting each other in the face fights.

That's not taking into consideration any orbital or planetary defences that might eventually be in place.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
CLERIC01
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#753 - 2011-10-19 06:50:03 UTC
Why does most things ccp do always seem to lean towards low and null space,how about making it more of an experiance for the people that dont want to venture into low sec like moon mining from a pos and now this customs office X
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#754 - 2011-10-19 06:52:21 UTC
ovenproofjet wrote:
I would personally like that thank CCP for all the carebear tears this is/going to create Twisted




i have a feeling you will be singing a different tune when a large tower costs 5-600mill a month in fuel
White Sharisa
Doomheim
#755 - 2011-10-19 07:03:50 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
ovenproofjet wrote:
I would personally like that thank CCP for all the carebear tears this is/going to create Twisted




i have a feeling you will be singing a different tune when a large tower costs 5-600mill a month in fuel


While i am sitting on over 60000 units of rocket fuel i need to move out of lowsec i am wishing i had of done more robotics, but you work with what you've got. I am doubtful i will bother selling anymore until after this is implemented.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#756 - 2011-10-19 07:04:10 UTC
CLERIC01 wrote:
Why does most things ccp do always seem to lean towards low and null space,how about making it more of an experiance for the people that dont want to venture into low sec like moon mining from a pos and now this customs office X


Because EVE Online is a PvP-focussed game, and CCP wants to provide more toys in the sandbox for the kids to fight over?

I share your sentiment to some degree though: why can't we have PCOs in hisec too? We have wardecs to take care of structures anchored in hisec, and this will ensure that there is a dynamic "ceiling" on PI product prices: hisec planetary production is such low yield that the goods would have to be massively inflated for anyone to decide that it was worth anchoring a PCO.

With the PCOs already placed by CONCORD, there is no possibility of removing them, and the fact that they are omnipresent means that the cost of a PCO will never factor into hisec PI production. At the very least, hisec PCOs should be owned by a wardec-able corp, allowing players to wardec the corp and blow up its hisec assets: for example Roden Shipyards in Gallente space (so if you wardec Roden Shipyards, you'll have to fight your way off star gates).

Heck, if there was only a minimal upkeep requirement, I'd be right in there with the wardecs, seeing how quickly I can upgrade to a beanstalk simply because I think they're cool :)

Well, right up until someone wardecs my beanstalk corporation and takes my shiny thing away Cry

Day 0 Advice for New Players
mkint
#757 - 2011-10-19 07:20:46 UTC
PI was a good idea until the devs got their hands on it. Apparantly they are doing the same with PCOs.

What I like most is how flippantly dismissive CCP Omen is being with player concerns. Smells like the promise of CCP failure. PI itself has always been a failure. It needs to be completely wiped out and rebuilt from the ground up by someone who actually plays EVE.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Hawkwar
M.I.M.M.S
#758 - 2011-10-19 07:28:01 UTC
This wasn't broken why are you "fixing" it? Go fix stuff that is broken before breaking PI.

This is just going to push the little corps out of the PI market and make it easier for the larger alliances to make even more money...... way to go CCP. Do any of you guys actually read what you write before you post or even think critically about this stuff?
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka
#759 - 2011-10-19 07:29:10 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'.


It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.

Regards
Omen


I'm sorry for the offensive tone, but - Really, Omen, really? Use the crappy high-sec planets, that are of almost no use with the yields they have now?

I have 6 planets with PI in low sec. So, if these changes go live, I'm going to be presented with a nice we-will-take-your-kidney bill for POCOs, 90% of the cost being BPCs , since I neither FW, nor do Incursions regularly to have LPs from CONCORD.

Or I'lll have to endure the taxes of a bigger corporation. Blah.

"Hey, look, nice changes to PI...nope, Chuck Testa."
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#760 - 2011-10-19 07:34:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
How about doubling the capacity of the rocket so it at least can be considered an alternative to the PCO for exports?

When corps start to monopolize planets as they realize there is more profit to gain that way due to raising market prices, it would be nice if there were some other way to get the goods off planet. There is still a quite substantial fee for using the rocket and I would still not be able to import to the planet.

Btw. this change has an awful tendency to make the rich richer.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook