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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Narkel Netto
Qatach Ominant Juriate
#701 - 2011-10-19 02:36:12 UTC
Great concept, but it will be a non starter unless:

* They are always anchored in the middle of the existing customs office grid point. Otherwise grid-fu will rule the day.

* They come in different sizes and allow you to anchor hardeners / defenses (think "miniature POS"). This will let people decide on how much they want to spend on fuel / defenses.

* The smallest version should have a 21 day fuel bay and cost about 100k/day. Maybe give it about 1/2 of the PG/CPU of a small POS tower and call it a mini-POCO. Larger versions should scale up and a large-POCO should cost about 800k/day in fuel.

* Fuel costs are needed, and if its not fueled it should go offline and anyone can simply unanchor the POCO and anchor a new one under new ownership. Without ongoing fuel or maintenance costs, there's going to be POCO spam everywhere.

* Tax rates should only be allowed to change once a week or once a month. Put a cooldown timer on it so that when you decide to "buy in", you're guaranteed a 30-day window before the tax rate changes. Especially since setting up a PI planet can cost 6-10M ISK and you need a week or so to break even.

* It's absolutely imperative that tax rates and access to the POCO can be set by alliance standings (if the corp is in an alliance) or by corporation standings. One tax rate with no regard to standings will not cut it. The existing tax / control screen doesn't do it.

* Tax should be based firmly on ISK/m3 basis, not some magical number in the database.

* It must be possible to see these structures in the Science & Industry window so that you can shop tax rates. You need to be able to see when the tax rate last changed and a history of previous tax rates.

* Regeneration rates for products need to be increased slightly because people will be condensed into fewer planets rather then being able to spread out to every planet in the system. There are going to be more command centers on existing planets, which is going to play havoc with yields. It's going to be a brutal catch-22 where you want more people using YOUR planets, but the more that you have the less everyone makes.

I can pretty much guarantee that all P2/P3/P4 factory worlds will move out of lo-sec and into hi-sec. The burden of risk is going to be on the people who harvest P0 and turn it into P1 haaving to deal with slumlords who jack the tax rate up/down all the time.
Janta Sarum
Sukuuvestaa Research LTD
#702 - 2011-10-19 02:40:38 UTC
Well pi will no longer be viable for small corps or solo players. Big alliances and corporations will now start controlling the pi product market, since they have the cash to put up those custom offices and the firepower to defend it. High sec pi will not be viable, simply because there is a fixed cost with import and export taxes. Costs that the big alliances and corporations will not have themselves so they can always undercut.
Not going to deactivate this account yet, will see how it all turns out, but I'm not hopefull.What?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#703 - 2011-10-19 02:45:12 UTC
Narkel Netto wrote:
Great concept, but it will be a non starter unless:


* They come in different sizes and allow you to anchor hardeners / defenses (think "miniature POS"). This will let people decide on how much they want to spend on fuel / defenses.

* The smallest version should have a 21 day fuel bay and cost about 100k/day. Maybe give it about 1/2 of the PG/CPU of a small POS tower and call it a mini-POCO. Larger versions should scale up and a large-POCO should cost about 800k/day in fuel.

* Fuel costs are needed, and if its not fueled it should go offline and anyone can simply unanchor the POCO and anchor a new one under new ownership. Without ongoing fuel or maintenance costs, there's going to be POCO spam everywhere.


What the hell are you thinking? You're going to have them burn more fuel than the planets can generate? We'll need ten of these damnable things in our hole.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#704 - 2011-10-19 02:49:12 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
So one other thing that this causes, a whole new class of necro structures, these things need to die on thier own if their owners don't visit them. We have all seen the dead corp POSs on moons. These will be a new type of "ghosts of dead corps" things to litter space that will need to be blown up to clear planets that they park on.


Very good point. Hey, Omen, what happens when a capsuleer doesn't tend to his CO?

Spent some time thinking about options and deleted everything I wrote. I think I'll just wait for Omen to respond. What?

_ _
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame
#705 - 2011-10-19 02:52:01 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
While I applaud the fact you are actually working on old content, improving and doing new things with P.I. I have to say this dosent intrest me in the slightest. Sounds like more work.

Please dont see this as a jab at you, I just wish there was more 'fun' involved.


very good point !

once again, CCP is taking lots of work to overcomplicate what should be simple !
the game should be fun ! not complicate !


* i red some comments about the costumers tax being higher than high sec ... not really needed, high sec PI is a joke, bearably producing anything compared to low sec or null sec.

- anyone can anchor a pos and gun defences
- only sov holder can anchor sov Hi-Hub and no defences
- now, you want to make something that everyone can anchor and have no defences ... well, that's like a free griefing machine, like an expensive pos without guns, that everyone can go there there, and ping it, and doesn't even shoot back.
you picked the worst of 2 worlds and made it even worst.
you seem wanting to add some sort of Hybrid reinforcement mechanic betwin sovereignty and pos bashing. - it has a configurable reinforce time, and it's destructible.


* tryng to ofset all this "extra non fun work", with 5x more powergrid which could allow players to be able to extract more planetary stuff ... which in my opinion, backfires in you're face !
why !? because PI material already demands a large cargo capacity. in case it would be necessary to produce even more to ofset the costs / risks, it would make people having to spent a lot longer, doing something that isn't fun.


- Costumer officers Should be deployable only by holding sov alliance.
- should be fliped like stations
- the extra powergrid seems interesting (maybe it needs 2x CPU boost too !?)


CCP Omen wrote:

Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it.


* what you guys don't understand !? PI taxes are cheap as it is ! expecting that the revenue is enough to hire people to go protecting it, is a naive illusion !
increase the taxes to make it worth wille, will make the pos fuel and T2 go to such high prices delivering a terrible blow on the end costumer wich simply end up not buying.


the only guys happy with this possible change are the ones asking :
"can i destroy it !?"

well ... i have one one constructive opinion about this kind of change if it moves ahead :

RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... \0/ Pirate
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2011-10-19 02:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
PI has been used by "the little guy" or the grunt in many null sec alliances as passive income to support their PvP habits so they don't need to grind out rats for hours on end.

Please keep in mind that by removing or impeding on this income in any fashion drives the cost and logistics up while driving morale and the "fun factor" of EVE down.

What ever you do, implement it so that the grunt who's trying to make ends meet on the battle field is still capable with less hassle. In my opinion, PI currently has already doubled, if not quadrupled the cost of running POS's. Sov quirks aren't enough these days to off set the current investment necessary to maintain them. POS's which help fund ship replacement programs to keep active duders in combat ships.

Keep the new pilot trying to fleet up and have fun in combat in mind every step of the way on this.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#707 - 2011-10-19 03:02:40 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
PI has been used by "the little guy" or the grunt in many null sec alliances as passive income to support their PvP habits so they don't need to grind out rats for hours on end.

Please keep in mind that by removing or impeding on this income in any fashion drives the cost and logistics up while driving morale and the "fun factor" of EVE down.

What ever you do, implement it so that the grunt who's trying to make ends meet on the battle field is still capable with less hassle. In my opinion, PI currently has already doubled, if not quadrupled the cost of running POS's. Sov quirks aren't enough these days to off set the current investment necessary to maintain them.

Keep the new pilot trying to fleet up and have fun in combat in mind every step of the way on this.


This goes on the long laundry list of things wrong with this feature. Think this through again devs. Your final QA staff is getting restless even thinking about the changes in their current form.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#708 - 2011-10-19 03:08:10 UTC
This is a awesome idea . despite the technical issues already outlined by the player base .

a solution to greifing concerns could be as follows.

re-implement mines ( i know aghhhhh!!!) but only so in a limited fashion.

  • mines only deployable x meters from the offfice
  • mines are powerful and are great deterrent against ships of ever increasing sizes (absolutely deadly against drones fighters/bombers)
  • structure add on to allowing storing and auto redeploying mines
  • mines are smart only attack attackers



if mines are to ugly . then resort to auto defense drones


  • drones already implemented in game think stationary carrier.
  • swarm mechanics
  • structure upgrade to hold more drones



other creative ideas that allow structure owners to properly and meaningfully defend their structures.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#709 - 2011-10-19 03:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
I have read all CCP Omen's posts, and I get the sense that FW Corps doing "Denial of Service" Attacks on opposing Militia Custom's Offices (Or even non-FW anchored CO's) [IE not allowing anyone to place a CO structure] has been placed on more of a wait and see approach?

Specifically that beyond just being a focal point of fighting, that the superior force make a 'Dead Zone' rather than say place their own Custom's Office.

In FW terms, CEO's and militia FC's may just decide that trying to slip a little ISK' kick back' device into your enemies home system say in Black Rise, let alone defending the thing, isn't worth allowing their enemy the ability to make exponentially more ISK in commodities to buy even better ships to come kill you with later?

I hope when it comes to FW, that CCP and Team Pi has taken a hard and long look at the 'reverse-psychology' scenarios that have the potential to seriously disenfranchise PI in low sec Faction Warfare regions?

Don't forget - It's a proven fact: Players always do what you least expect them to do!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#710 - 2011-10-19 03:15:17 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
PI has been used by "the little guy" or the grunt in many null sec alliances as passive income to support their PvP habits so they don't need to grind out rats for hours on end.

Please keep in mind that by removing or impeding on this income in any fashion drives the cost and logistics up while driving morale and the "fun factor" of EVE down.

What ever you do, implement it so that the grunt who's trying to make ends meet on the battle field is still capable with less hassle. In my opinion, PI currently has already doubled, if not quadrupled the cost of running POS's. Sov quirks aren't enough these days to off set the current investment necessary to maintain them. POS's which help fund ship replacement programs to keep active duders in combat ships.

Keep the new pilot trying to fleet up and have fun in combat in mind every step of the way on this.


Seems that any increase in cost would be the fault of the corp placing the PCO. Nothing states you have to set the tax higher, or have anyone be taxed at all. Alliances with sov could, with relative ease, deploy them and set taxes to 0% for blues and enabling you to fuel POS's at lower costs. If your alliance is unwilling to do this then how is CCP at fault?
Sneaky Neko
Invalid Input
#711 - 2011-10-19 03:16:30 UTC
I don't know if this is necessarily the direction you want to go with this, but what if the owning corporation had the option to make the customs office not work if it is put into reinforced (possibly also increasing the reinforce time by a day or something). Hypothetically this would provide incentive for people in lowsec/NPC nullsec to put up with reasonable taxes in exchange for 1) not having to buy a CO and 2) not having to deal with the down-time associated with removing the old one. In essence making it a little more feasible for entrepreneurs to seed systems with customs offices for tax-based profit.

Fake edit: Humm, the idea of re-introducing mines to defend structures is a little intriguing. With limitations, they would probably need some sort of F.O.F. system to be useful and something would need to be done to detour greifing (perhaps only deployable in systems where you hold sov?). Mind you, I wasn't around when mines existed before so it may well be a terrible idea.
Sassums
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#712 - 2011-10-19 03:17:17 UTC
So are corporations within the same alliance allowed to use the offices?
Your Corp Sucks
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#713 - 2011-10-19 03:24:26 UTC
Pipip Mendicant wrote:
Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.

It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.



^^THIS
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#714 - 2011-10-19 03:28:18 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
well as they made them worthless for anything but shooting structures in the last blog, they had to amke more structures for them to shoot i guess.


When your mummy sends you to bed without dessert because you kicked your sister, do you complain that your parents don't love you?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#715 - 2011-10-19 03:30:37 UTC
Your Corp Sucks wrote:
Pipip Mendicant wrote:
Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.

It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.



^^THIS



this also a great idea.

maybe add a claim system to it to allow the lil guy the opportunity to take it himself. but other wise that would allow for a smooth roll out.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2011-10-19 03:30:59 UTC
Your Corp Sucks wrote:
Pipip Mendicant wrote:
Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.

It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.



^^THIS


I have to say i dislike this idea as it makes this yet another feature where small and/or noncombat corps need not apply. At least as is once can try to setup in an out of the way location and hope no one finds it to be worth taking down while reaping the most likely modest rewards.
Your Corp Sucks
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#717 - 2011-10-19 03:34:15 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?

Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best.


Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.


This seems like a good argument for doing as one guy suggested and leaving the current ones in place but making them attackable.

Making it so that the customs offices are just *gone* until you or someone else puts one up is going to really hurt "the little guy" who is doing their PI in a quiet lowsec system. I know personally I'm not going to be able to run out on day one and build six new customs offices, and who knows when someone else might come along to do it.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#718 - 2011-10-19 03:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sri Nova
Quote:


I have to say i dislike this idea as it makes this yet another feature where small and/or noncombat corps need not apply. At least as is once can try to setup in an out of the way location and hope no one finds it to be worth taking down while reaping the most likely modest rewards.


yeah thats my only problem with it . thats why i suggested some kind a claim system where the lil guy can lay claim to it and figure some way or spend the time dismantling it so he can erect his own .
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#719 - 2011-10-19 03:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Burseg Sardaukar
I definitely saw the idea that NEEDS to be implemented:

Different taxes for different standing level would encourage corps to keep their CO's open to the public, as some people might not want to tax their corp members or friends at all, but this current planned system pretty much makes it tax-all-or-ban-from-use.

For ex:
Corp Members, no tax
Alliance Member, 2%
Faction Members 5%
Blues 10%
Neutrals 12%
Competitors 15%
Enemies No access.

OH, and check out the PI 2.0 post by Asuka Solo, it's brilliant.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7655

It includes a good idea involving planetary-based defenses that could be used to help secure the customs office.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#720 - 2011-10-19 03:46:22 UTC
I've started to realize that while I like the general concept, I'm having a serious problem with wiping the current Custom's Offices, rather than making them attackable...

Hell, you could even do a 'Claim Deed' where you provide CONCORD with X, get a claim deed in return and if you're corp drops it into the existing Custom's Office first then it's your's - then you have to defend the thing... it's a seed without being a seed, and doesn't disrupt the current PI production (unless that's intentional?)

Lastly, I'm just gonna be a bit cynical here and ask:

>>>So if we can now have player owned Custom's office's in Low Sec... .can we also get player owned Outposts too?!?!?!! <<<<

*(Cause I know my militia would love to build one in Black Rise!)

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf