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Dev Blog: Fast Forward

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Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#461 - 2012-10-26 06:43:42 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
...this is clearly your first time interacting with Bad Messenger, I take it. Lol


Must be annoying that most things turn out as BM predicts they will happen. Original mission boost, LP farming, etc. One would think CCP would pay attention at some point.
Starbuck Mulligann
Auto Scoop Solutions
#462 - 2012-10-26 07:53:30 UTC
Quote:
Add new LP rewards for defensive plexing at a reduced and variable rate. The formula here has also changed since the F&I post, and now is:
LP Gain = Base value of plex * (Contested percentage of the system/100) * 0.75

So if a system is 100% contested and you run a defensive plex you would gain 75% of the base payout for that plex type. If the system is 50% contested you would gain (0.5*0.75=0.375) 37.5% of the base payout.

Add new LP donation tax based on each faction’s warzone control. The higher your warzone control level the more of your donations are consumed by the tax. This is in place to provide diminishing returns and to compensate for the increased LP gain from the new tier system. When reaching Tier 5 the tax would be as high as 70%.


The above mechanism are counter to CCP's goal of making pilots excited about capturing and maintaining territory for their faction. Most power players in any game will find the most efficient route to their goal. Lemmings follow suit. However, CCP is applying serious diminishing return mechanisms to both the defensive end-goal ( 0% contested ) and to the offensive end goal ( reaching tier 5 ). The impact is that both the offensive and defensive goals will just not be worth it. We are likely to end up in some perpetual boring medium where both factions maintain 2-3 tier control. Being in FW will be similar to being in any lowsec alliance. That's only the best case scenario though. In the more likely and also worst case scenario, multiple nullsec coalitions join the same faction, push them to tier 5, and then mission their hearts out for similar LP rewards. Farmers follow suit.

I wish I can say that the recent changes were an improvement, but CCP has only moved the ISK bucket down the road. I think to really improve the FW system CCP needs to simplify the mechanics and directly incentivize FW PvP. It would be meaningful to reflect on the approach taken by red vs. blue and the simplicity of the capture the flag model. A core part of the problem is access to real-time information on the state of FW.

Here are some quick ideas to improve FW:
- Expand the FW dashboard to include data on which system is currently being captured by the opposing faction
- one capture location per system
- equal compensation for each system captured
- equal compensation for defending a system that was under attempted capture. (criteria for this should be carefully considered)
- FW dashboard includes killboard style after action reports for key battles.
- LP store items only benefit FW pilots
- FW dashboard includes all up killboard-style ranking of FW pilots

These changes would draw PvP fights by highlighting the immediate tactical targets for the opposing faction. They would also persist the achievements made by each side, showing absent pilots what they missed. It drives FW to a team based approach. It seperates the benefits of FW from the overall eve economy. It makes rewards predictable and consistent.
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#463 - 2012-10-26 11:18:14 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I am however very concerned about the losing militias ability to afford everyday PvP ships, which is exactly why I suggested that the penalty for the losing militia be reduced, and prices returned to pre-inferno levels, as well as be fixed so that the underdog can cash out anytime, anywhere, and keep on fighting without having to wait for a tier spike that may never come. It should be remarkably easier to earn a viable income even at Tier 1 in the new system, and we're already seeing a surging comeback from the Amarr who have been flipping systems aggressively since the news of the patch was announced.


Thank you

It might be a TZ issue but in EU evening being on the Amarr side we are totally outnumbered & out gunned.

Mini fleet typical = 10+ fleet stabbers + 10+ interceptors

Amarr = 5-6 ships T1/T2 frigs


It's really hard to get any fleet together to actually make anything close to a fight.

Now it might sound like a lot of QQ, but it's not actually any fun for either party.

 How To use a Probe Scanner in Eve Online

Ravinus Brown
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2012-10-27 10:37:00 UTC
I am very pleased with this patch. Now there is no one doing anything in FW anymore. I also calculated that I would make three times more isk mining belts in hisec than doing offensive plexes in caldari-militia. Maybe I should invest in Mackinaw create mining corporation

How can you fail so much nerffing too much at once? It's like everyone employee at CCP wanted to make their own nerf to ISK making in FW. What is the reason I would take plexes when there is no reward whatsoever?

-Ravinus Brown-
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#465 - 2012-10-27 11:21:04 UTC
Ravinus Brown wrote:
I am very pleased with this patch. Now there is no one doing anything in FW anymore. I also calculated that I would make three times more isk mining belts in hisec than doing offensive plexes in caldari-militia. Maybe I should invest in Mackinaw create mining corporation

How can you fail so much nerffing too much at once? It's like everyone employee at CCP wanted to make their own nerf to ISK making in FW. What is the reason I would take plexes when there is no reward whatsoever?

-Ravinus Brown-


I think we are forming some kind of mining corporation to get enough tritanium for all those thousands of navy battleship prints we got from lp store.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#466 - 2012-10-29 12:08:47 UTC
The Rules of Engagement - Upgrade your own space section is now out of date and needs changing to reflect this patch.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#467 - 2012-10-29 19:49:20 UTC
I did the math and at this point you're better off doing level 4 missions in high sec. Lulz
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#468 - 2012-10-29 20:05:58 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
I did the math and at this point you're better off doing level 4 missions in high sec. Lulz


Mind sharing it with everyone here?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#469 - 2012-10-30 08:38:52 UTC
I did a major outpost defensively yesterday for Caldari at tier 2 with the system 48.3% contested and received 9,000LP for zero risk and 20 minutes of time. Its become even more carebear than before the changes. We need the npc changes before defending plexers will have any serious risk of pvp, they have all the npcs on their side right now and that'll put most aggressors off. Big mistake introducing defensive plexing ahead of that change imo.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#470 - 2012-10-30 08:59:07 UTC
It seems that good old FW missioning running times are back, common question for new player in militia was before patch how to plex, now it is how i can get FW missions Lol

I like to thank CCP how they boosted FW missions to give about 80k lp / mission and you can still do those with solo bomber \o/

As i remember this solo bomber missioning was one of the top priorities Hans wanted to nerf Roll
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#471 - 2012-10-30 13:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Welcome to the forever grind.

No longer will we have dramatic/exciting swings in fortune for the factions that plan and execute strategies well.

No longer will there be any balance. We now give lp for defensive plexing to help the winning side stay on top.

No longer will the people who helped the losing side become the winning side, reap rewards. Fighting for the losing side means you only make a fraction of the income. But those fair weather fans who jump on the winning team after its winning get huge benefits.

No longer do we see all the blogs and posts with strategies, counterstrategy, or even counter counter strategy. Nor do we hear about phases of combat. No all of that is gone. Now its just a mindless endless grind with no achievable goals.

As far as changing the rules on short notice. That just tends to highlight the how artificial the game is. Sides can work at a certain strategy for months and then just have it ripped out from under them.

I understand doing this on short notice, but you should have given the sides some opportunity to finish whatever strategies they were trying to implement or at least some adjustment time of a week or so.

And no it doesn't effect me. I have been on a break from eve for about 2 months and I will probably remain that way until winter anyway.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#472 - 2012-10-30 13:55:59 UTC
roigon wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
roigon wrote:
Does this mean that in an identical fight the pilot who is a member of a faction with a higher tier will actually get more LP for the kill?

Yes, replacing the old system where they would get the same LP but the higher tier player would get more value for that LP.


But the old system was one with a delayed promise. i.e. you made LP's just as fast as the other guy and maybe someday they would be worth something and that would be a bonus.

But now the system becomes direct, and every action you take where you would get LP you get incentivised to do that action for the winning side.

There is obviously some self-balancing in the market where for instance minmatar LP is worth less then amarr LP trough supply and demand. But that's a secondary effect. On the face of it any player who looks into FW will see that they get more LP from joining the winning side then for joining the losing side.

Even for people who are just interested in PvP, the system is essentially telling them to join the winning side.



Hans was very straight forward on this. There is no economic balance at all in the new system.

In the old systems there was because there was no lp for d-plexing but lots of minmatar felt they were being punished for winning so they were very quick to change that. You are right the lp that we held was an added incentive to help us try to win and a security because we knew in the future we would eventually hit a high tier.

They ignored the criticisms of this new system. Appearantly everyone adopted soundwave's view that people would join the losing side for the supposedly better pvp opportunities.

So one side gets paid 2xs as much isk for the same exact activity. The other side has some vague promise of more pvp opportunity. Are we really supposed to pretend we don't know how this will work out?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#473 - 2012-11-02 13:51:54 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
It seems that good old FW missioning running times are back, common question for new player in militia was before patch how to plex, now it is how i can get FW missions Lol

I like to thank CCP how they boosted FW missions to give about 80k lp / mission and you can still do those with solo bomber \o/

As i remember this solo bomber missioning was one of the top priorities Hans wanted to nerf Roll


This is really sad. Major LP should come from PvP, not missions!

 How To use a Probe Scanner in Eve Online

Dawne Xi
3D Salvage and Acquisitions
#474 - 2012-11-04 21:53:25 UTC
Quote:
We will be implementing a cap on the number of missions one character can have open at once. This cap will affect all Security, Distribution and Mining missions, not just FW missions. The exceptions to the limit will be Storyline, Cosmos and Epic Arc missions. The current plan is for the cap to be 5 simultaneous missions.


You said it includes all Sec, Dist, Mining missions? You mean if I am NOT in Faction Warfare, I am limited to this max 5 open missions at once? If this is true, can you explain why I should be limited to this? If not, then ok :)
Siunaaja
Probe Patrol
#475 - 2012-11-10 11:50:43 UTC
Did, by any chance, CCP announced any changes in the LP Store UI?
Mike deVoid
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2012-11-24 22:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike deVoid
...
Mike deVoid
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#477 - 2012-11-25 01:01:01 UTC
Oh, I updated Buckingham and tried them all out today. It is intentional that there was only 1 NPC in each site (apart from 2 in the rookie site)? Also, there were no respawns of the NPCs. And I was able to complete all 4 sizes of site with a t1 frigate: a tristan with hobgoblin IIs, 1 web, 1mn AB, 2x neutron blasters.