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Dev Blog: Fast Forward

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#361 - 2012-10-23 18:45:23 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Sorry to spoil the general enthousiasm, but to me, this seems like a veeeeerry bad system.

Basically, what this means, is that the winning side will bathe in LP (and thus ISK) while the losing side has no chance to recover because whatever they do just yields 6.5 times less LP (and thus ISK) than when the opposing side does just the same thing.

The losing side will HAVE to bring PvE ships to plex, while the winning side can just farm those PvE ships and get ridiculous amounts of LP from defensive plexing (with no rats shooting them).

How can this even seem like a good idea? If the losing side has no way of getting back on its feet, FW is essentially dead.


PS: Didn't read all the 12 pages, sorry if I'm repeating what someone else said before.


I can understand that in theory, one side earning more isk would lead to a dominant power group that cannot be defeated, but there's simply too much practical evidence to the contrary that has accumulated over the past few months.

Just about every assumption going into Inferno - "The Amarr militia will be nonexistent" "PvP will decline" "FW is dead" "There will only be two militias" "Station lockout prevents system flips" "Minmatar militia to rule them all" - has been disproven time and time again. Those of us working on improving the mechanics simply can't afford to purely speculate and must look at what's actually taking place when making adjustments.

Remember also that the rats themselves are changing, any PvE ships needed to run existing content will only be temporary, as this is a patch to hold us over for the full content replacement. So I'm not particularly concerned about the ship fits being an issue here.

I am however very concerned about the losing militias ability to afford everyday PvP ships, which is exactly why I suggested that the penalty for the losing militia be reduced, and prices returned to pre-inferno levels, as well as be fixed so that the underdog can cash out anytime, anywhere, and keep on fighting without having to wait for a tier spike that may never come. It should be remarkably easier to earn a viable income even at Tier 1 in the new system, and we're already seeing a surging comeback from the Amarr who have been flipping systems aggressively since the news of the patch was announced.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#362 - 2012-10-23 18:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ty Delaney
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Are you stating that the LP payout is too high for FW missions and deplexing?

It really looks like deplexing is only valuable in highly contested systems, which will reward PvP in these systems... Systems will no longer remain 100% vulnerable for extended periods of time, as there is little benefit to the attackers to leave it that way!


I'll concede that it's not a huge deal with d-plexing, because the way it's set up, it drives defenders and attackers into the same system. That's a good thing, from my point of view.

But the missions? yeah, it feels like too much. I just shudder to think of tier4 payout multipliers applied to level4 missions. I mean, what's the point of limiting the number of missions you can have active at one time if you set up the system so that it increases the mission rewards by 200% or more?
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#363 - 2012-10-23 19:10:37 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I can understand that in theory, one side earning more isk would lead to a dominant power group that cannot be defeated, but there's simply too much practical evidence to the contrary that has accumulated over the past few months.

Just about every assumption going into Inferno - "The Amarr militia will be nonexistent" "PvP will decline" "FW is dead" "There will only be two militias" "Station lockout prevents system flips" "Minmatar militia to rule them all" - has been disproven time and time again. Those of us working on improving the mechanics simply can't afford to purely speculate and must look at what's actually taking place when making adjustments.

I am however very concerned about the losing militias ability to afford everyday PvP ships, which is exactly why I suggested that the penalty for the losing militia be reduced, and prices returned to pre-inferno levels, as well as be fixed so that the underdog can cash out anytime, anywhere, and keep on fighting without having to wait for a tier spike that may never come. It should be remarkably easier to earn a viable income even at Tier 1 in the new system, and we're already seeing a surging comeback from the Amarr who have been flipping systems aggressively since the news of the patch was announced.


As far as I know - and have seen in game yesterday evening - Minmatar militia has almost undisputed domination over the warzone. When the patch was announced the Minmatar made an immediate tier 5 push the Amarr/Caldari could do very little against (I participated in the efforts to prevent it). I am not aware of any successful Amarr offensive in the last 24h (I slept and went to university though, so I may have missed something).

Quote:
Remember also that the rats themselves are changing, any PvE ships needed to run existing content will only be temporary, as this is a patch to hold us over for the full content replacement. So I'm not particularly concerned about the ship fits being an issue here.


I can't see how the new rat AI will make PvE fits any less mandatory for clearing out larger plexes.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Audrey Koshka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#364 - 2012-10-23 19:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Audrey Koshka
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I am not aware of any successful Amarr offensive in the last 24h (I slept and went to university though, so I may have missed something).


We've been very busy bees. :)

DotLan FacWar Map
Eric Deloitte
The Flowing Penguins
#365 - 2012-10-23 19:20:56 UTC
On the downside Amarr get a bit of leg up due to having more Vuln'd systems

On the plus side NEVER do we have to hear farming alts ask if we are pushing for tier 5 today

On balance not bad, so as the actress said to the the bishop, "lets suck it and see"
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#366 - 2012-10-23 19:26:50 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I can understand that in theory, one side earning more isk would lead to a dominant power group that cannot be defeated, but there's simply too much practical evidence to the contrary that has accumulated over the past few months.

Just about every assumption going into Inferno - "The Amarr militia will be nonexistent" "PvP will decline" "FW is dead" "There will only be two militias" "Station lockout prevents system flips" "Minmatar militia to rule them all" - has been disproven time and time again. Those of us working on improving the mechanics simply can't afford to purely speculate and must look at what's actually taking place when making adjustments.

I am however very concerned about the losing militias ability to afford everyday PvP ships, which is exactly why I suggested that the penalty for the losing militia be reduced, and prices returned to pre-inferno levels, as well as be fixed so that the underdog can cash out anytime, anywhere, and keep on fighting without having to wait for a tier spike that may never come. It should be remarkably easier to earn a viable income even at Tier 1 in the new system, and we're already seeing a surging comeback from the Amarr who have been flipping systems aggressively since the news of the patch was announced.


As far as I know - and have seen in game yesterday evening - Minmatar militia has almost undisputed domination over the warzone. When the patch was announced the Minmatar made an immediate tier 5 push the Amarr/Caldari could do very little against (I participated in the efforts to prevent it). I am not aware of any successful Amarr offensive in the last 24h (I slept and went to university though, so I may have missed something).

Quote:
Remember also that the rats themselves are changing, any PvE ships needed to run existing content will only be temporary, as this is a patch to hold us over for the full content replacement. So I'm not particularly concerned about the ship fits being an issue here.


I can't see how the new rat AI will make PvE fits any less mandatory for clearing out larger plexes.

Amarr % now up from roughly 2% last night to 9.5% at the moment.

PvE fits aren't mandatory now, but they do allow one to attempt to hog as much of the LP payout as possible.

However since it will be a lot easier to tell what is going on in the plexes, if you actually want to survive the attempt it will be advisable to bring friends and fit properly if you actually want to survive to reap those rewards.

I also have a feeling we will be seeing more modification on the NPC plex defense front than merely the AI change.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#367 - 2012-10-23 19:32:03 UTC
Audrey Koshka wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I am not aware of any successful Amarr offensive in the last 24h (I slept and went to university though, so I may have missed something).


We've been very busy bees. :)

DotLan FacWar Map


Oh!Oops

Good job!

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Klister Ethelred
Parallax Shift
#368 - 2012-10-23 19:41:47 UTC
Quote:
Have plex capture timers visible to everyone in system so you can easily tell which plexes are close to being captured.


This is giving pilots EXACT location intel that they did not derive themselves. The population of any sector of space should be unknown until scanned or visited.

"I'd rather be pissed off then pissed on"

"This is one of those times when it's important to know the difference between 'then' and 'than'."
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#369 - 2012-10-23 20:02:44 UTC
Klister Ethelred wrote:
Quote:
Have plex capture timers visible to everyone in system so you can easily tell which plexes are close to being captured.


This is giving pilots EXACT location intel that they did not derive themselves. The population of any sector of space should be unknown until scanned or visited.


maybe it is so called arena pvp
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#370 - 2012-10-23 20:07:14 UTC
a few tweaks to the FW window would be nice:

Arrow can you make it so that the tooltip of the warzone control diagram showes how many points are needed to reach the selected tier? The point system isn't very transparent for new players right now.

Arrow the table could also show how much lp is still in the ihub buffer (next to the level colum) of friendly systems

Arrow you should also update the ROE tab of the FW window... lp shop is now fixed, text sais it isn't

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#371 - 2012-10-23 21:10:46 UTC
Klister Ethelred wrote:
Quote:
Have plex capture timers visible to everyone in system so you can easily tell which plexes are close to being captured.


This is giving pilots EXACT location intel that they did not derive themselves. The population of any sector of space should be unknown until scanned or visited.

While I agree with you to an extent, it is also true that the base under attack is one of your own... why would they not alert those in the area...

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#372 - 2012-10-23 21:20:47 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
While I agree with you to an extent, it is also true that the base under attack is one of your own... why would they not alert those in the area...


The problem is that it gives too much information to an attacking player (be they on the defensive or offensive). Essentially all you have to do is pop your head in the system, wait a moment while you are watching for which plexes are decreasing, then just warp to it. It essentially becomes a system wide D-scan, without the work.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#373 - 2012-10-23 21:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Orakkus wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
While I agree with you to an extent, it is also true that the base under attack is one of your own... why would they not alert those in the area...


The problem is that it gives too much information to an attacking player (be they on the defensive or offensive). Essentially all you have to do is pop your head in the system, wait a moment while you are watching for which plexes are decreasing, then just warp to it. It essentially becomes a system wide D-scan, without the work.


I prefer this - it increases the chances of someone coming to fight me when I am sitting in a plex.

It really comes down to this: If you are wanting to plex for system control, you probably won't like this change.

if you are wanting to plex for pvp, this change is great.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#374 - 2012-10-23 21:34:00 UTC
chatgris wrote:
for which plexes are decreasing, then just warp to it. It essentially becomes a system wide D-scan, without the work.

I prefer this - it increases the chances of someone coming to fight me when I am sitting in a plex.

It really comes down to this: If you are wanting to plex for system control, you probably won't like this change.

if you are wanting to plex for pvp, this change is great.


I wouldn't have a problem with it either.. if it only worked for 1 vs 1 fights. But this change would allow a scout to find out which plexes were being run and then for a gang to warp in on your position with a minimum of effort. Not a big deal when you are in minor, but it might be one if you are with some friends running a larger plex.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#375 - 2012-10-23 21:44:09 UTC
"Have plex capture timers count backwards to the default state when no players are contesting them"

YES. This finally makes it so that if someone just runs and runs they are not more effective at system capture than someone who chases said runner.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#376 - 2012-10-23 22:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Orakkus wrote:
chatgris wrote:
for which plexes are decreasing, then just warp to it. It essentially becomes a system wide D-scan, without the work.

I prefer this - it increases the chances of someone coming to fight me when I am sitting in a plex.

It really comes down to this: If you are wanting to plex for system control, you probably won't like this change.

if you are wanting to plex for pvp, this change is great.


I wouldn't have a problem with it either.. if it only worked for 1 vs 1 fights. But this change would allow a scout to find out which plexes were being run and then for a gang to warp in on your position with a minimum of effort. Not a big deal when you are in minor, but it might be one if you are with some friends running a larger plex.

I suppose that means it might be a good idea to have a scout or two out to help you determine if you should engage the incoming group or flee. You know, like the big boys do. Smile

Update: Amarr now up to 11.4%, but Minmatar pulling back a bit of ground as well, now back up to 43.3%.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#377 - 2012-10-23 22:41:56 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
You know, like the big boys do. Smile


Shouldn't that be an Eve Meme by now?

The problem is that a scout won't help you in this situation, aside from giving you a few moments warning as to their incoming gang, which this change will allow them to move rather quickly against you. The, ahem, "Big Boys" (in Dr. Evil quotes) you speak of will not just be a system over, they'll be where your scout (which, won't take them long to figure out) isn't going to be. And their scouts will be watching your scout, and all that business.

Hey, anything that gives me a heads up when I'm hunting frogs is all well and good.. and this CERTAINLY will make it easier for me to find foes. Much, MUCH easier.

But, in the end, I don't think the change is all that fair. And Hans or CCP hasn't come back and said what problem this will directly address or how this will improve Faction Warfare overall.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#378 - 2012-10-23 22:50:02 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Stuff


Forum just ate my properly 'weighted' response and I actually can't be bothered to rewrite it - I doubt you'd like to read it even if I did.

The general gist of it was that you've helped CCP make the PVE war effort worse since Inferno, and you've only helped plex PVP by moving the button.

Nothing against you personally, and I'm sure you did your best.
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#379 - 2012-10-23 23:03:34 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Remember also that the rats themselves are changing, any PvE ships needed to run existing content will only be temporary, as this is a patch to hold us over for the full content replacement. So I'm not particularly concerned about the ship fits being an issue here.


I can't see how the new rat AI will make PvE fits any less mandatory for clearing out larger plexes.


No, he's talking about the fact that Retribution will introduce a new set of NPC rats all the plexes.


  1. Only one rat at a time.
  2. Presence of the rat stops the plex timer.
  3. Rat is sized appropriately for the plex in question, and active-tanks enough that a right-sized ship for the plex can kill it, but an undersized ship for the plex can't.


The net result of this should be:

  1. An element of the plex that (a) requires shooting but (b) won't require PvE-fit ships (once the new single-rat-at-a-time rats are in).
  2. An enemy presence that can't simply be ignored by speed-tanking, ungunned farmers.
  3. A counter to 1-week-old farming alts running majors in an ungunned Incursus.
  4. Minimal standings hits, since there will only be a handful of enemy ships to kill.


Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#380 - 2012-10-23 23:56:18 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:


No, he's talking about the fact that Retribution will introduce a new set of NPC rats all the plexes.


  1. Only one rat at a time.
  2. Presence of the rat stops the plex timer.
  3. Rat is sized appropriately for the plex in question, and active-tanks enough that a right-sized ship for the plex can kill it, but an undersized ship for the plex can't.


The net result of this should be:

  1. An element of the plex that (a) requires shooting but (b) won't require PvE-fit ships (once the new single-rat-at-a-time rats are in).
  2. An enemy presence that can't simply be ignored by speed-tanking, ungunned farmers.
  3. A counter to 1-week-old farming alts running majors in an ungunned Incursus.
  4. Minimal standings hits, since there will only be a handful of enemy ships to kill.




Man, I really wasn't up to date on all this info. Ok, this makes more sense. Is this a suggestion or has it been officially announced?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed