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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

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Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
#41 - 2012-10-20 20:15:05 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shobon Welp wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Some one please till me how no local makes null HARDER to find targets in?


Because the roaming gang relies on local to find things to kill. Do I have to draw a diagram in crayon?


Scouts.

You mean the scouts who are looking at local to see whether the system is empty or if there's a target?
Mirima Thurander
#42 - 2012-10-20 20:24:50 UTC
Shobon Welp wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shobon Welp wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Some one please till me how no local makes null HARDER to find targets in?


Because the roaming gang relies on local to find things to kill. Do I have to draw a diagram in crayon?


Scouts.

You mean the scouts who are looking at local to see whether the system is empty or if there's a target?


No the scouts dropping combat probes to see if there are any targets in system.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#43 - 2012-10-20 20:31:19 UTC
I have to laugh at all the null bears complaining about the concept of local going bye bye.

When I lived in wh's, it was standard practice to shut down all wh's but your static, if you planned on ratting/mining/whatever in your home pocket. We then took turns sitting by that static in a cloaked ship, doing sentry duty, due to the very dangerous situations that developed if you did not.

And that wh is hypnotic, especially the Gregorian Chant-like sound that the wh emanates.
Many of our pilots went a little nuts and wanted to offer sacrifices to Bert the wh god.

But we all know how tough the typical null sec PvP'er is. (I apologize to the small gang guys and give grudging respect to PL). They would not last a week living in a wh, where you have to work hard or every ISK you earn, and what looks like empty space is often not.

It is quite a different world doing PvP in a wh pocket, as opposed to dropping on 50 ships with 500 of your closest friends, all in supercaps.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-10-20 20:40:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have to laugh at all the null bears complaining about the concept of local going bye bye.

When I lived in wh's, it was standard practice to shut down all wh's but your static, if you planned on ratting/mining/whatever in your home pocket. We then took turns sitting by that static in a cloaked ship, doing sentry duty, due to the very dangerous situations that developed if you did not.

And that wh is hypnotic, especially the Gregorian Chant-like sound that the wh emanates.
Many of our pilots went a little nuts and wanted to offer sacrifices to Bert the wh god.

But we all know how tough the typical null sec PvP'er is. (I apologize to the small gang guys and give grudging respect to PL). They would not last a week living in a wh, where you have to work hard or every ISK you earn, and what looks like empty space is often not.

It is quite a different world doing PvP in a wh pocket, as opposed to dropping on 50 ships with 500 of your closest friends, all in supercaps.


Remove local in null is like make WH entry static+never deplete, SCs can be cyno'd in, Bo's and reccon fleet able to be cyno's in.
Are you ok with this? - because it's exactly what you're saying, just in case you haven't noticed yet.

brb
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-10-20 20:41:47 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Some one please till me how no local makes null HARDER to find targets in?

In a place where alliances hold systems within wide areas of space.

The "intel channel" could help chain the existence of some fleet further or somewhere within the vicinity, or even when it's not. These often promotes fights, since people can just come in to a space owned by alliance X and the alliance X can go and meet those players.

There's also that random roams where we gauge viability of getting fights within a system by quickly skimming through local, yes dscan can do the same, but with only dscan, we can't tell the difference between whether someone is docked (unless we can be bothered to dock aswell) or just aren't there at all. There's also the issue with 14.3 AU range with dscan for huge systems, while it doesn't really matter if we intend to scan down someone, it made a huge difference when we're just trying to grab a quick intel.

Some other stuff that allows identifying known players in local can also promote fights, or other things like local spikes on certain systems or quickly skimming down where the enemy fleet's going or where they are at the moment. This cannot be done without local. Even Dscan won't be a viable tool to deal with this kind of problem.



Get better scouts. And if all u want is a gf tell them your coming

Has nothing to do with scouts. If you read and understand what I (or we) was trying to say; scouts is an active role, in a place where contesting territories and promoting fights becomes a lifeline and where living condition both pve and pvp are required to keep people to stay, it's not as simple as "get better scouts". What I stated previously was passive intel that promotes/the reason behind fights.

We use scouts in active fights, many of them, some of them are even well known for their scouting capabilities and probing the right targets, but that's a different case. If those are what you referred to as "scouts", then you don't understand what was the reasoning behind why local is needed in nullsec, at all.

That second part of "tell them your coming" is just silly. If someone comes to a target system just to harass or getting gfs (or some other reason), do you really expect them to contact us, everytime? that's assuming they know who to contact, also assuming that they can be bothered at all. We do that sometimes, provoking people to actually undock and fight, but that's also a different case. What next? we need to ask permission and be as polite as possible when invading someone's space in null?

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Mirima Thurander
#46 - 2012-10-20 20:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Some one please till me how no local makes null HARDER to find targets in?

In a place where alliances hold systems within wide areas of space.

The "intel channel" could help chain the existence of some fleet further or somewhere within the vicinity, or even when it's not. These often promotes fights, since people can just come in to a space owned by alliance X and the alliance X can go and meet those players.

There's also that random roams where we gauge viability of getting fights within a system by quickly skimming through local, yes dscan can do the same, but with only dscan, we can't tell the difference between whether someone is docked (unless we can be bothered to dock aswell) or just aren't there at all. There's also the issue with 14.3 AU range with dscan for huge systems, while it doesn't really matter if we intend to scan down someone, it made a huge difference when we're just trying to grab a quick intel.

Some other stuff that allows identifying known players in local can also promote fights, or other things like local spikes on certain systems or quickly skimming down where the enemy fleet's going or where they are at the moment. This cannot be done without local. Even Dscan won't be a viable tool to deal with this kind of problem.



Get better scouts. And if all u want is a gf tell them your coming

Has nothing to do with scouts. If you read and understand what I (or we) was trying to say; scouts is an active role, in a place where contesting territories and promoting fights becomes a lifeline and where living condition both pve and pvp are required to keep people to stay, it's not as simple as "get better scouts". What I stated previously was passive intel that promotes/the reason behind fights.

We use scouts in active fights, many of them, some of them are even well known for their scouting capabilities and probing the right targets, but that's a different case. If those are what you referred to as "scouts", then you don't understand what was the reasoning behind why local is needed in nullsec, at all.

That second part of "tell them your coming" is just silly. If someone comes to a target system just to harass or getting gfs (or some other reason), do you really expect them to contact us, everytime? that's assuming they know who to contact, also assuming that they can be bothered at all. We do that sometimes, provoking people to actually undock and fight, but that's also a different case. What next? we need to ask permission and be as polite as possible when invading someone's space in null?


You do know your first paragraph can be boiled down to we need.local to be safe/so we have easy Intel.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#47 - 2012-10-20 20:49:11 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have to laugh at all the null bears complaining about the concept of local going bye bye.

When I lived in wh's, it was standard practice to shut down all wh's but your static, if you planned on ratting/mining/whatever in your home pocket. We then took turns sitting by that static in a cloaked ship, doing sentry duty, due to the very dangerous situations that developed if you did not.

And that wh is hypnotic, especially the Gregorian Chant-like sound that the wh emanates.
Many of our pilots went a little nuts and wanted to offer sacrifices to Bert the wh god.

But we all know how tough the typical null sec PvP'er is. (I apologize to the small gang guys and give grudging respect to PL). They would not last a week living in a wh, where you have to work hard or every ISK you earn, and what looks like empty space is often not.

It is quite a different world doing PvP in a wh pocket, as opposed to dropping on 50 ships with 500 of your closest friends, all in supercaps.


Remove local in null is like make WH entry static+never deplete, SCs can be cyno'd in, Bo's and reccon fleet able to be cyno's in.
Are you ok with this? - because it's exactly what you're saying, just in case you haven't noticed yet.

Cynos still show up on the over view in less.there to covert type.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2012-10-20 20:50:25 UTC
It is not just null that harbours a dislike for the idea of arbitrarily removing local. Come up with a viable solution (ie. one that doesn't hinge on spamming directional and/or taxes server to oblivion) that enables said removal and I think you'll find a massive support/lobby group waiting to jump on your bandwagon .. until then enjoy riding around in your pull-cart.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-10-20 20:50:25 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have to laugh at all the null bears complaining about the concept of local going bye bye.

When I lived in wh's, it was standard practice to shut down all wh's but your static.

lol
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#50 - 2012-10-20 20:51:14 UTC
you don't understand. Local is like Pride. its a weakness that can be exploited. Its just understanding how to exploit it but i dont give free advice ;)
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
#51 - 2012-10-20 20:54:21 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shobon Welp wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shobon Welp wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Some one please till me how no local makes null HARDER to find targets in?


Because the roaming gang relies on local to find things to kill. Do I have to draw a diagram in crayon?


Scouts.

You mean the scouts who are looking at local to see whether the system is empty or if there's a target?


No the scouts dropping combat probes to see if there are any targets in system.

Your scouts drop probes to look for targets when local is already telling them there's nobody in the system?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#52 - 2012-10-20 20:54:32 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"It works for wormholes, so it should work for nullsec. Right? RIGHT?"
lol no.


Why not?

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Mirima Thurander
#53 - 2012-10-20 20:54:51 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
you don't understand. Local is like Pride. its a weakness that can be exploited. Its just understanding how to exploit it but i dont give free advice ;)


Yea so did I and its stupid I have to sit afk for 2 weeks letting the cowards become use to me being there before I can get a kill.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-10-20 20:57:28 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have to laugh at all the null bears complaining about the concept of local going bye bye.

When I lived in wh's, it was standard practice to shut down all wh's but your static, if you planned on ratting/mining/whatever in your home pocket. We then took turns sitting by that static in a cloaked ship, doing sentry duty, due to the very dangerous situations that developed if you did not.

And that wh is hypnotic, especially the Gregorian Chant-like sound that the wh emanates.
Many of our pilots went a little nuts and wanted to offer sacrifices to Bert the wh god.

But we all know how tough the typical null sec PvP'er is. (I apologize to the small gang guys and give grudging respect to PL). They would not last a week living in a wh, where you have to work hard or every ISK you earn, and what looks like empty space is often not.

It is quite a different world doing PvP in a wh pocket, as opposed to dropping on 50 ships with 500 of your closest friends, all in supercaps.

Nullsec are not WHs, stop comparing these two. As for nullsec people won't last a week living in wh? you're dead wrong. I played in WHs before and I survived just fine, I won't say I've actually "lived" there for an extended period, but I can imagine what it's like. But that's irrelevant, I have friends who live both in null and WHs (who were nullsec inhabitants in the first place), we have a WH group/corp in the alliance and they seems to be doing fine as well. The point being, WH is not more :elite: than nullsec, neither does nullsec more elite than WHs, both are different and people chose between them because they want to, nothing more.

As for "work hard", you really, absolutely sure that the 'effort' to invade, conquer, manage, organize and defend a space is not "hard work"? as oppose to living down in a hole for the purpose of grabbing as much isk as possible? The difference between nullsec and wormhole people are very substantial. Most people I know who have gone to WHs, goes there because they either want more isk or they love exploring the 'mysterious space' of wormholes and all it's intricacies, while some people I know does go there to pvp, they're very rare when it comes to pvp as their first motivation; in contrast, most people who joined a nullsec corp/alliance, their first objective is almost always, to shoot stuff or be involved in sov warfare (which is also pvp, on a bigger scale); I literally, have never met anyone who joined a nullsec corp because, say, the spacerocks are better here, or want to do trades or do nullsec exploration, there are people who has those motivation ofc, but it's not the majority, unlike wormhole players.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Mirima Thurander
#55 - 2012-10-20 20:57:44 UTC
Shobon Welp wrote:

Your scouts drop probes to look for targets when local is already telling them there's nobody in the system?


That's how you eve with no local you dimwit.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-10-20 20:59:12 UTC
A better compromise would be to add a skill to the game that hides you from all local, in all sec, until you chat in local, then you'd appear on that system's local window.
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
#57 - 2012-10-20 20:59:42 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Shobon Welp wrote:

Your scouts drop probes to look for targets when local is already telling them there's nobody in the system?


That's how you eve with no local you dimwit.

But there is local in eve.
Mirima Thurander
#58 - 2012-10-20 20:59:55 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have to laugh at all the null bears complaining about the concept of local going bye bye.

When I lived in wh's, it was standard practice to shut down all wh's but your static, if you planned on ratting/mining/whatever in your home pocket. We then took turns sitting by that static in a cloaked ship, doing sentry duty, due to the very dangerous situations that developed if you did not.

And that wh is hypnotic, especially the Gregorian Chant-like sound that the wh emanates.
Many of our pilots went a little nuts and wanted to offer sacrifices to Bert the wh god.

But we all know how tough the typical null sec PvP'er is. (I apologize to the small gang guys and give grudging respect to PL). They would not last a week living in a wh, where you have to work hard or every ISK you earn, and what looks like empty space is often not.

It is quite a different world doing PvP in a wh pocket, as opposed to dropping on 50 ships with 500 of your closest friends, all in supercaps.

Nullsec are not WHs, stop comparing these two. As for nullsec people won't last a week living in wh? you're dead wrong. I played in WHs before and I survived just fine, I won't say I've actually "lived" there for an extended period, but I can imagine what it's like. But that's irrelevant, I have friends who live both in null and WHs (who were nullsec inhabitants in the first place), we have a WH group/corp in the alliance and they seems to be doing fine as well. The point being, WH is not more :elite: than nullsec, neither does nullsec more elite than WHs, both are different and people chose between them because they want to, nothing more.

As for "work hard", you really, absolutely sure that the 'effort' to invade, conquer, manage, organize and defend a space is not "hard work"? as oppose to living down in a hole for the purpose of grabbing as much isk as possible? The difference between nullsec and wormhole people are very substantial. Most people I know who have gone to WHs, goes there because they either want more isk or they love exploring the 'mysterious space' of wormholes and all it's intricacies, while some people I know does go there to pvp, they're very rare when it comes to pvp as their first motivation; in contrast, most people who joined a nullsec corp/alliance, their first objective is almost always, to shoot stuff or be involved in sov warfare (which is also pvp, on a bigger scale); I literally, have never met anyone who joined a nullsec corp because, say, the spacerocks are better here, or want to do trades or do nullsec exploration, there are people who has those motivation ofc, but it's not the majority, unlike wormhole players.



How do you shooting people when.they see you enter local and dock up?

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#59 - 2012-10-20 21:00:53 UTC
Conrad Makbure wrote:
A better compromise would be to add a skill to the game that hides you from all local, in all sec, until you chat in local, then you'd appear on that system's local window.

And before long everyone would have it trained.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-10-20 21:02:16 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"It works for wormholes, so it should work for nullsec. Right? RIGHT?"
lol no.


Why not?

Multiple reasons. It's impossible to hot drop in wormhole space, and it's impossible to catch ratters who are watching dscan carefully unless you have previously already bookmarked all of the sites in a wormhole. It's also much easier to secure and guard a wormhole space system and any incursions are likely to be much smaller and less organized.


But why do I bother telling you all this? It's not like OP would ever possibly change their mind. They seem to think that reciting key rhetoric over and over again somehow presents a tangible argument.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)