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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Author
MinSebsis
Steel Hammer Industry
#301 - 2011-10-18 16:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: MinSebsis
I like this, but one thing bothers me.


Make it so more then one PCO can be constructed per planet!


This opens up compitition and adds more pew pew.

Don't like that guys PCO prices on the other side of the planet, lower your prices or go blow it up! Win Win for everyone!

Consumers and Tax Barons.

More compitition the better!

I for one are not going to trust a publicly open PCO to keep standings and taxes stable, you have to have trust, and I trust no one in eve.
Paying Customer - Capsaleer enabled in 2005
Handsome Hussein
#302 - 2011-10-18 16:48:10 UTC
Can I have my skill points back? Big smile

This will pretty much kill the low-sec small-time harvesters like me.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#303 - 2011-10-18 16:49:12 UTC
I do not think that this will work in lowsec at all.

I can see how all lowsec customs offices are constantly shot down by bored pirates, so no more PI in lowsec.

Good way to nerf lowsec more.
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#304 - 2011-10-18 16:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: BeanBagKing
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
BeanBagKing wrote:


Ninja PI in 0.0 should be controllable, I mean if you OWN the system, you OWN it. In low sec, that's different of course.

CCP I do hope you increase the storage capacity of the warehouses (whatever it's called that isn't a launch pad).


I wasn't discussing anything about 0.0 in that post, but to respond, personally I say leave it an open system. Currently yes, in 0.0 you OWN a system. Does that stop people from ratting in your system? Setting up towers? Doing PI in it's current form? Owning a system doesn't mean sitting back and chilling because nobody can setup shop in said system, it grants some benefits, but you still have to get out there and pop a red POS if someone suddenly anchors one. I think custom offices should be the same way, but that's my personal opinion.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2011-10-18 16:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
CCP Omen wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?

Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best.


Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.
@ CCP Omen: You have much to learn about EVE Politics.

Some of the most epic political subterfuge takes place in the form of large-scale thefts, asset destruction and POS shenanigans (resulting in theft).

Also, how can this change not be considered highly mechanics-oriented? You have just documented changes to the primary way in which capsuleers interact with planets, including structure timers as well as taxation and access control mechanisms.

When players roll up their sleeves to 'get work done' in EVE, mechanics rule the day (think Dominion Sov rules, time zone wars due to timers, etc.). Politics may be the reason behind an offensive movement, but mechanics rule the day.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2011-10-18 16:50:16 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
[quote=Raziphan Rebular]

That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen

Not really, it just adds another milk cow for large alliances/corps and leaves the smaller corps in the dust...
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
#307 - 2011-10-18 16:53:52 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
So, I have a few (a lot?) of concerns about this.

1.) As other people have said, the PI market will reach absurd prices, at least in comparison to what they are now, meaning all items that use "planet poop" will also increase, such as towers, SBU's, TCU's, and other anchored structures, as well as T2 items. I know you are working on decreasing the cost of T2 items by balancing moon products, but this will off set that by a decent amount, making the moon balancing effect negligible.

This is not a bad thing, nor one to be concerned about. The market will adapt, and more people will have incentive to do PI if prices go up. The current state of the PI market is nothing sacred.
Quote:
2.) I know for a fact that a majority of PI products harvested by small time high-sec players comes from low-sec planets that are close to high sec borders. Removing the Customs Office from ALL low-sec systems will increase cost. One way to offset this is to increase the amount of resources that high-sec planets have to the same amount as the low-sec planets, or at the very least, similar (only slightly less). The income from owned Customs offices should balance out the pros/cons of low-sec PI, as people who live in deep low-sec, at least in my experience, will find it troublesome to fly 15+ jumps just to get to 3 or 4 planets. You could also make it so that faction warfare systems use the player owned offices, while empire owned low-sec should retain the customs offices, ownership being switched from CONCORD to the corresponding empire who owns the space.

People should have more incentives to move out to dangerous space, not less.
Quote:
3.) Decrease the tax increase from 50% to 20-30% for high sec Customs offices. This will be from the shift in the majority of the PI resources from high/low sec to 0.0 space. High sec PI output WILL decrease, perhaps dramatically, once the changes take effect. No one wants to pay more for their PI products than what they are worth on the market.

No. What should ideally happen is player-controlled highsec offices, with the stipulation that said offices are required to be open to the public. It'll make highsec a bit more sandbox-y than it is at current, as you'll have folks wardec'ing each other to remove customs offices and steal the delicious custom taxes, etc
Quote:
4.) Also concerning the low-sec player owned offices, small time operators in low-sec, such as myself, will find it impossible to replace or anchor multiple customs offices without the fear of them being taken down within 24 hours. One way to get around this is to perhaps increase the hp of the customs offices to that of a large tower and perhaps adding a repair function to the office, making it easier for alliances with less than 100 active members to get to it in time for defense.


No. The offices already have so much HP and long enough timers that no one in their right mind is going to bother with them. Increasing it further is just going to make it even worse.
Mr Management
Anger Management
#308 - 2011-10-18 16:54:17 UTC
Quote:
(And 300 POCOs would only be about 30 systems.)


Or 300 Plasma and Lava Planets ...... thats gonna be fun for production costs. Blink
Handsome Hussein
#309 - 2011-10-18 16:55:17 UTC
For moar tears, read below:

I can still launch a can using the command center, correct? But that is limited to 500m3. I do a lot more volume than that in a night, and if I let it slip a few nights it can really pile up (I fill up a "nano"-Crane pretty quick!) This might work for low-sec if the launch pad mechanics are changed to allow 10000m3 cans. Otherwise... Yeah, I'm done with the feature.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.

Tammarr
#310 - 2011-10-18 16:56:03 UTC
Liandra Xi wrote:
Highfield wrote:
[quote=CCP Omen][quote=Dr Mercy]Any comments on HP levels?



I'm not going to comment on the specific HP numbers, but I would like to echo the request to make these things basically invulnerable to fighter bombers and doomsdays. I have no issues with dreads and carriers being used to RF these, great opportunites for small cap fights, but make it so that Titans and Supercaps cannot themselves damage them within 2 minutes would make these a lot more fun.


No supers on the field at all. Supers mean lowsec/npcnull can't do anything, getting dropped by 5 carriers is "ok". getting dropped by two mums eating your everything with an additional 12 waiting for you to even consider attacking the two supers they are showing, yäj. Or even: Oh they brought 5 carriers, we can actualy fight that if we field 4 of our own. Lets do this it'll be fun pewpew over planet with this entitiy that has about the same as us. ...3 moments later your caps are dead to supers you can't hope to hold down unless they dont have support at all. a possible fight ruined for everyone.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#311 - 2011-10-18 16:56:25 UTC
Viktor von Steiner wrote:
It would be awesome if a planetary office would be small enough, that a 10-50 man roaming gang can shoot it into reinforce and bugger off quick enough; such a terror gang could interrupt local industry enough to motivate counter-roaming gangs that are on patrol. This would also give roaming gangs strategic objectives instead of just roaming for shooting-redz-for-the-lulz.


QFT from another thread - the locked one claiming that this is somehow a “nullsec buff at the expense of everywhere else”

Whether the customs office is destroyable (meaning you've put it in reinforced) by a small gang, or dreadnoughts like POS's, remains to be seen, and depends on the hitpoints of the new structure. But you're spot on - this is exactly the kind of strategic objective that nullsec and lowsec combat really needs.

To those panicking over this - and complaining about being "locked out" of a planet, etc, etc. You're absolutely right. You CAN be locked out, if you don't want to pay exorbitant fees. But you can also rebel against such tyranny and attack the douchebags who are overcharging you.

Just like the Goon attacks, these things will balance themselves out through gameplay in the long run. If the prices of PI goods skyrocket, more people will engage in PI. That means more competition, more fights, more tears, more fun. Sadly, once again players would rather complain about increased difficulty, rather than see this for what it brings to the sandbox in terms of new iterative gameplay and challenge.

This was bound to happen eventually, did everyone think PI would be a gravy train forever? How in the world will we fight over planets on the ground, if we can't even fight over the space-bound elements first? Remember everyone, this is a sandbox. It's designed to encourage competition at every level.

When PI was first released, everyone complained that there was nothing you could do to actually compete other players for resources. Everyone rightfully complained that there was no consequence for just allowing you to put anything on a planet right next to a war target's own colony. Finally, consequence has been delivered, and you can use your spaceships for planetary supremacy. This is a long overdue feature that fixes one of the primary complaints about the simplistic PI feature to begin with, and finally gives it its teeth.

Well done, CCP, well done.

Also - for the record, I'm a lowsec inhabitant, and I do have PI colonies that I farm regularly. In no way is this just a nullsec buff - this is a win for the game as a whole. Players have been demanding the last few months for more spaceship stuff, more conflict, more stuff to do. Now you have it. Rise to the challenge, or stick to highsec. But seriously, enough complaining that they're making EvE more like EvE. I welcome the chance to fight for my stuffs, it'll be fun to be a planetary dictator!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Sinistrus Fatalis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#312 - 2011-10-18 16:56:25 UTC
With many others, my main concern is more structure shooting.

I don't want to grind more structures, rep more structures... basically it's a lot of effort for not that much gain.

I was already up in the air about doing pi. I would prefer that you left the structures and made it some sort of system linked to sov, or similar to station timers. So at least I don't need to move more crap to make them work.

I like the idea of putting more control in the players' hands, I just don't think more structure grinding is the way (unless you have one hell of a non-structure bashing idea coming around for sov.)
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#313 - 2011-10-18 16:57:19 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
The overwhelming feeling I'm getting from this thread is: "Have you thought this through all the way?"

Please don't take this the wrong way. We do like the spirit of the feature. We the players simply feel this new feature could be abused severely. There are many cons and not many pros. Could the design team please take another conscious look at this feature taking all of the feedback into account before release?

I can see this turning into a threadnaught quite easily, because of the upcoming Dust release, among many other current, practical reasons. People care about PI, because it's something everyone can do. At least, it is in it's current state. We don't want that to change.


I think it's already become a threadnaught. lol

CCP Omen wrote:
You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.


OK, I'm just gonna come right out and say it....you guys really don't play your own game, do you? I mean, I think cruising around in Jove space with other GMs seems to have cut you off from what the spirit of eve is: screw over as many people as you can, getting as many ship kills as you can along the way. But seriously, people who control the customs offices will CERTAINLY deny access to people who don't have decent standings with them, or in the very least, hike the tax rate up to 90 - 100%. No one likes neutrals, or reds for that matter, flying around in their space.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2011-10-18 16:57:42 UTC
I like the idea of the changes but it is missing some key featured in my opinion and i would like the see them implemented please:

1. The tax rate should be tied to player standing - For example the customs office holder may wish to charge neutrals a 10% tax, blues 5% and denies access to people with a negative standing.

2. Corporation hangers within the office - A player should be able to give another member of his/her corp access to their launch facility.


Thanks
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2011-10-18 16:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
edit: double post deleted
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#316 - 2011-10-18 17:01:18 UTC
CCP Omen: I have one big suggestion.

To help the transition period, and to make life easier to all us PI users: If you got a launchpad on the planet, Allow us to use it to launch a large can into orbit. Such launchers would be prohibited if a PCO is in place.


Also Im somewhat worried about high sec factory planets. These are planets where you buy P2, drop it to the planet, make P4 and export it. The profit margin is already rather small, doubling the import/export fees may make it unprofitable for the high sec operator.

Is it really your intention to remove an industry option for high sec residents? Please keep an eye on this. You may find you want to lower the export fees charged by concord, at least for P4 (which are stunningly high, much higher per cubic meter than anything else).

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

pussnheels
Viziam
#317 - 2011-10-18 17:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
Jake Centauri wrote:
The new CO's could also be used for industrial griefing in the following manner: say you find a good planet with a CO open to the public for 9% tax. You install PI on the planet and come back the following day only to find either the tax raised to 100% or, the CO standings were changed to blue only. Your PI installation becomes unexpectedly isolated (no CO) or way too expensive to use. I mean, who is gonna _trust_ that neutral CO's settings will remain stable....I won't.


This
this is one of my main concerns
most older players in high sec have their installations in low sec and they probably form the biggest percentage of pi production
and like i said before you are just giving the control away to people who are not using it or will just use it to grief others

besides who i s going to invest time and money into placing this stupid thing will the first idiot who comes along can blow it up while you are at work or asleep oor does CCP presumes we all play EVE 23/7

No ccp you not been thinking straight

it is about time you stop pampering those 10% of pvp onlyplayers in null sec and do something for all of us
this certainly doesn't help

and indeed if this go ahead like it stands now please refund my 1,6 mil sp on my 3 other accounts

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#318 - 2011-10-18 17:01:48 UTC
Xython wrote:
I don't see this going over well in Nullsec, considering how frustrating getting these things up will be, and how we're going to have to install one on every single planet we want to do PI on. Not to mention how many random roving annoyances will pop them just to be a jerk. Will we be able to place defenses up? Get alerts when they're getting attacked? Have a chance to repair them?

I just don't know. It sounds like a fun idea, but at the same time, it sounds like it could make it a bit more difficult than it should be. Wonder if there could be a "default" NPC Customs Office that we could upgrade instead.


Poor you with so many planets! Blink
There should absolutely be a notification of some sort.

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison

Barakkus
#319 - 2011-10-18 17:02:45 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
The overwhelming feeling I'm getting from this thread is: "Have you thought this through all the way?"

Please don't take this the wrong way. We do like the spirit of the feature. We the players simply feel this new feature could be abused severely. There are many cons and not many pros. Could the design team please take another conscious look at this feature taking all of the feedback into account before release?

I can see this turning into a threadnaught quite easily, because of the upcoming Dust release, among many other current, practical reasons. People care about PI, because it's something everyone can do. At least, it is in it's current state. We don't want that to change.


The only thing this is really going to change is whether or not you do planetary launches or use a customs office.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#320 - 2011-10-18 17:03:58 UTC
Jake Centauri wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
Quote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.


And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.



Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?"

Market prices? 100% of nothing is still nothing. At the end of the day, we will have to see, if all goes to hell, we can change the variables.

Regards
Omen

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison