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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Arul Tinoga
Tinoga Enterprises
#181 - 2011-10-18 15:30:58 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
  • The corporation that owns the customs office get the taxed ISK in their corp wallet
    • Any plans on making CO taxes be payable from a corp wallet on the other side?

    <- This alt has only a small personal wallet and it's such a hassle to transfer money from the corp wallet every time just for PI.
    Rhavas
    Noble Sentiments
    Second Empire.
    #182 - 2011-10-18 15:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhavas
    Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.

    Questions:
    1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm.
    2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming?
    3) When does this go live?
    4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing...

    Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
    Mikron Alexarr
    New Age Solutions
    #183 - 2011-10-18 15:32:52 UTC
    CCP Omen wrote:
    Mikron Alexarr wrote:
    30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.

    So, we’ll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, it’s possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably won’t see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesn’t even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that we’ll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.

    All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.

    Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.

    Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock.


    Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.


    Agreed :)

    50% is the current contribution. How will that change when the supply coming from non-high sec adjusts to the mechanics change and surpases high-sec contribution? Again, if I was a more active player pulling in money from many different sources this would be a much smaller concern. The state of the economy affects the casual player more than anyone since their money flow is much slower (not necessarily smaller).

    Is there any word on possible UI improvements that will be released along with this new feature? Hilmar did mention in his post that the player base would be heard on calls for improvements for existing features.
    inexistin
    Rubbish and Garbage Removal
    #184 - 2011-10-18 15:34:12 UTC
    CCP Omen wrote:
    Bloodpetal wrote:
    CCP Omen wrote:
    Starr Tookus wrote:
    So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.

    Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed?


    Currently: Nothing.

    You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.



    Mimidae Risk Solutions in first. :)


    The major issue, I have to tell you, with that thinking - as a Mercenary already, is that the value has to definitely increase enough to want to hire Mercs to do it.


    It's also the BLOB factor. The reality is, no Merc can outblob a major alliance/crew. it is just not happening (Unless you're PL I guess).


    Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec.


    HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE.


    I love the idea, but you're not going to stop the griefing by simply using the reinforcement timer function. It's going to become a sov mechanic all over again. The biggest numbers win. Over and over. You need to fix that and make it viable in other ways.


    Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it.


    Think of it this way: If an alliance depends on a large number of COs to supply their pos fuel, then they are screwed if another alliance besieges them because each CO can produce only a limited amount of fuel. Therefore, multiple are needed and if a rather small percentage of them are attacked, the defender cannot really rescue them. This way, the alliance will have one of two choices: either let it's POS' go offline or import stuff from Jita. Prices will skyrocket and no one will want to use POS' anymore except for cases where they are extremely needed (staging POS', high ends, etc).

    I hate it when prices spike. It is not good for any of us non-tycoons.

    Also, managing a large number of these things will be a huge problem and headache if done at corporate level.
    Chaos Incarnate
    Faceless Logistics
    #185 - 2011-10-18 15:34:24 UTC
    CCP Omen wrote:
    Dr Mercy wrote:
    Any comments on HP levels?


    =HP scpecification=
    * Customs Office Gantry
    ** Shield: 10,000,000
    ** Armor: 500,000
    ** Structure: 300,000

    * Customs Office
    ** Shield: 10,000,000
    ** Armor: 2,500,000
    ** Structure: 2,000,000

    Regards
    Omen


    These HP values (and the length of the reinforcement timers) seem a bit high to me, tbh. The problems are:

    -In nullsec and lowsec, i don't really feel most people will care about destroying them, as they're fairly low-value targets and griefing someone's PI isn't a huge deal. Moreover, being as there's a reinforcement timer, having a large amount of HP seems somewhat unjustified. Lowering the HP and timers would make it more enticing to blow them up.

    -In w-space, the long reinforcement timers are going to make it very hard to attack them as a 'roaming gang' style. You can't get a connection to a system, reinforce the offices, blow them up, and still evac before your wormhole in collapses. The HP amounts are going to make it problematic as well, as even with a ten-man gang of dps t3s or bombers you're still talking 20-30 minutes per office at anywhere up to ten or more planets. Making the timers shorter and reducing the HP would make it more feasable to clean out customs offices as a means to provoke a fight.

    Incidentally, are customs office kills going to generate killmails?
    Taoi Khan
    DUST Expeditionary Team
    Good Sax
    #186 - 2011-10-18 15:34:51 UTC
    Just bought a Moros to kill these 80 mil + Customs OfficePirate
    Fly safe Big smile
    Hakaru Ishiwara
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #187 - 2011-10-18 15:35:17 UTC
    Mikron Alexarr wrote:
    ...

    Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern....
    Structure shooting (especially ~7.5M in shield HP) is *never* fun unless blobbing with caps for a quick reinforcement.

    Anything less than a bomber / BS blob will take a *very* long time to reinforce one of these structures.

    +++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
    Mikron Alexarr
    New Age Solutions
    #188 - 2011-10-18 15:36:07 UTC
    Rhavas wrote:
    Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.

    Questions:
    1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm.
    2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming?
    3) When does this go live?
    4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing...


    Word on important features like this would be welcome indeed.
    Aynen
    Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
    #189 - 2011-10-18 15:36:15 UTC
    Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.

    When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit.
    Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something.
    Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up.
    This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp.
    Lucas Kell
    Solitude Trading
    S.N.O.T.
    #190 - 2011-10-18 15:36:37 UTC
    CCP Omen wrote:
    Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.

    Since High Sec taxes are doubled, you will see an increase in price anyway. You will also see a faster drain on high sec planets, as all of the small corps and individuals that venture out to low sec for PI now move back into high sec, which will decreas supply without decreasing demand, which again increases price. Basically PI materials are going to go up in price quickly.

    How the hell have you managed to take the once system in EVE that is working fine and do the same thing to it that you did to the rest of EVE to cause the current upsets that people have?

    Personally I'll be unaffected by this, as I produce all my PI in nullsec, but I can see the damage this is going to cause for the high sec/ low sec popluation and I say shame on you!

    The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

    Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
    Ruairi iliffe
    Edge Of Infinity
    True Reign
    #191 - 2011-10-18 15:37:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruairi iliffe
    CCP Omen wrote:
    The Customs Office is very relevant in our future plans (don't dare go in to specifics right here, right now) so increased capability and costs will probably be added in the future.


    Its the fact that in ALL the DUST media you keep showing an Orbital Elevator isnt it? That at some point we can upgrade the Offices to become either a full fledged station, i mean, We knew at some point we are to have a location in space for us to fight over, and PI control would be determined by who controls both the ground and sky, the fact we can attack them with this idea means its part of the set up to full interaction, heck even that was shown in the trailers.

    EDIT: Also that leads into why this is Low sec and 0.0 only for the charges and ownership....

    /tinfoil hat off

    Anyway that was my random 'it all makes sense' moment.
    Mikron Alexarr
    New Age Solutions
    #192 - 2011-10-18 15:38:38 UTC
    Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
    Mikron Alexarr wrote:
    ...

    Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern....
    Structure shooting (especially ~7.5M in shield HP) is *never* fun unless blobbing with caps for a quick reinforcement.

    Anything less than a bomber / BS blob will take a *very* long time to reinforce one of these structures.


    "fun at first" read: "wtf are you thinking CCP? We've talked about this before."
    Mikron Alexarr
    New Age Solutions
    #193 - 2011-10-18 15:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mikron Alexarr
    *snip*
    Dinta Zembo
    Tea. Earl Grey. Cold.
    #194 - 2011-10-18 15:39:37 UTC
    Taoi Khan wrote:
    Just bought a Moros to kill these 80 mil + Customs OfficePirate
    Fly safe Big smile


    Locator agents, go!
    Pipip Mendicant
    Kindred of Honor
    #195 - 2011-10-18 15:39:41 UTC
    Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.

    It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
    Liandra Xi
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #196 - 2011-10-18 15:40:25 UTC
    The question I have is this: in 0.0 only the owning alliance who has sov in the system can use PI on the planets in the system anyway, so as far as I can tell the standings thing in 0.0 is useless, unless it now allows you to let allies use your planets where they couldn't before. Would love a proper confirmation on how that is intended to actually work in nullsec.
    Mikron Alexarr
    New Age Solutions
    #197 - 2011-10-18 15:40:58 UTC
    Pipip Mendicant wrote:
    Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.

    It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.


    wish I could double-like this post ^
    Shar Tegral
    #198 - 2011-10-18 15:41:22 UTC
    I like the change I just think it is the wrong time to do it.

    First improve PI so that it is not a chore, then add additional risk complications.

    This sequence, as proposed, is just another form of CQ.
    Dinta Zembo
    Tea. Earl Grey. Cold.
    #199 - 2011-10-18 15:42:05 UTC
    Pipip Mendicant wrote:
    Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.



    +1000000! THIS!
    Midnight Firestarter
    Anger Management
    #200 - 2011-10-18 15:42:17 UTC
    So unless you in an Alliance or hire PL ...... 0.0 is no longer avaliable for PI ? All they need to do is
    drop a few Alliance Customs offices and the systems are locked out ?.

    As a small fish I prefered the old system and all you needed to do was to allow per corp and per alliance
    access to the Customs Office ...

    /me claps hands for another good move CCP