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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Mart Allini
Lead Farmers
#61 - 2011-10-18 13:59:59 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
While I do support putting more control into the players hands, I am a little sad about this change from the perspective of someone who lives in a wormhole. I hope the customs offices are either A: not too expensive, or B: fairly durable. Basically I'm envisioning people coming into occupied wormholes, blowing up customs offices, and leaving. No real interaction, just costing us money for the sake of griefing.


Well, they might be able to reinforce it easily, but theu would have to commit themselves to staying in there until the reinforcement timer was up to blow it up. If they do and you can't get a defense up, then meh, eat the cost.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#62 - 2011-10-18 14:01:48 UTC
When will this be on Sisi for testing?

When do you plan on it being on TQ?

If there is no customs office can we still launch cans from the command center? Will we be able to launch cans from the spaceport?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

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CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#63 - 2011-10-18 14:01:58 UTC
Brunaburh wrote:
A few comments:


  1. Customs offices should have a maintenance or upkeep cost, and that cost should vary with the security status of the system they are implemented in. Frankly, this should exist for Player Outposts in nullsec too, but since that ship is currently at sea, this should be caught before leaving harbor. Why? Simplest reason is because with no ongoing cost, there is no drawback to, say, Pandemic Legion installing customs offices on all the valid production planets in VFK (Goonswarm space).

  2. I'm assuming that (like towers and stations) Customs offices can be repped when they come out of R/F - although this was not specifically addressed.

  3. I like that losec customs offices are owned by corporations, this does present some interesting gameplay (um, griefing tactics) for corps that are trying to use losec for PI but not invested or residing in the systems they use.

  4. If a planet has a customs office installed, does that mean people who do not have access to said customs office cannot use planet for production, or can they still do launches? I would hope the former, since part of the purpose of the customs office should be to block access to assets, but the latter isn't a horrible option. This needs to be clear up front.

  5. Also, taxes. The whole "tariff" seems pretty vague. Is it based on market price of the product? Is it based on volume? Is it based on rarity? Devil in the details. I'd like some please.


There is no upkeep cost currently. The Customs Office is very relevant in our future plans (don't dare go in to specifics right here, right now) so increased capability and costs will probably be added in the future.

Players can still do launches. The Customs Office does not dictate who can build a command center.

the tax thing is quite complex, (to my own surprise when I took it on) but whenever you do percent, there has to be a value at the bottom to modify with the percent. In the "real" world, customs are paid as actual money for any given commodity. Like for instance, 1kg Banana costs 1 USD or whatever. This is the tariff. This cost, is set by CCP on every single item that can flow to/from planets and the owner of the customs office modifies how much of that value he wants. This value existed before this change as well, and was precisely what you paid for import and export. We have increased it significantly but in turn, the default value is 5% which is the same as before =)

Hope that makes any sense!

Regards
Omen

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison

Korvin
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
#64 - 2011-10-18 14:03:11 UTC
Yeah.
All that this game was needed is a lots-of-HP-structure-with-a-reinforce to shoot at for 5 hours every day. Lol

Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8

CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2011-10-18 14:03:18 UTC
muhuh Aihaken wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:


Good point, it should, however, there is a tool tip on all the headlines that explains more. I'll try and have someone fix it.

Cheers
Omen


Can we get a checkbox to set it for alliance only rather than having to make all our friends +5? Also is it based off corp standings or alliance standings?


It's a good suggestion, I'll add that to our wishlist. It is standing towards the owning corporation.

Regards
Omen

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison

CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2011-10-18 14:07:47 UTC
David Carel wrote:
a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%?

b) Can you anchor a Customs Office next to a station/outpost?


Wow, that was a good idea but it's not the case. If the time fairy smiles, then maybe...but don't count on it.
The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison

Raquel Smith
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-10-18 14:08:54 UTC
No sir, I don't like it.

Although let's clear a few of my misgivings up:


  1. If there is no POCO will we be able to do imports and exports?
  2. Will I be able to anchor these things in enemy space to impede their PI?
  3. What does it mean to have an anchored POCO with a tax rate of 100% rate? How about 0%?
  4. Who collects the taxes?
  5. Coke Zero or Diet Coke?
  6. How many hitpoints and what resists on the POCO?
  7. Can I now set up planets in systems in which my alliance do not hold sov? (Ninja-PI?) Can my alliance stop enemies from setting up planets in our space?
  8. What is the equivalent tax rate of the existing customs offices?


Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#68 - 2011-10-18 14:08:56 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:

You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.




To continue to emphasize this Blob factor with a tangible example :


Little tiny alliance of 100 people puts up Customs Offices in one low sec system. Goonswarm with 500 people goes and reinforces all the planetary timers in System X. Who is the tiny little alliance going to hire that is going to stop goonswarm? PL? Ya, ok. No way taxes are going to make up for hiring a major merc alliance to stop Goons.


I also thought you were going to move away form the "Shooting Structures" bit? How long does it take to take a Customs Office down? Why not bring 500 people and 100 supercaps to do this? Because faster is better. How can anyone stop a mega-blob if they're not already mega-blob capable? Noone wants to shoot structures, so they just develop ways of shooting structures FASTER. So more supercaps and more death on the field. Low Sec is already screwed up with a boring Null Sec, that PL is living in Amamake and other null sec alliances have been trolling through low sec with super caps on stand by.

Shooting structures is bad, do you have plans to change this as we go forward, just as has been mentioned for Null Sec sov changes?


So, it becomes a population issue, the more populated areas will be more valuable, for more throughput for more taxes. But who can and will contest with the major alliances in low sec, if the major alliances want to take that all over?


Where I am.

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-10-18 14:09:32 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec.

HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE.


You forget one thing, everyone in nullsec is bored out of thier skull of shooting structures, maybe some lone super will reinforce your office (depending on hp) but no one will get a big fleet together too shoot these without a big chance to get a fight.
Charles37
Bookmark Both Sides
#70 - 2011-10-18 14:10:04 UTC
These sound like great changes, bringing some much needed player involvement to PI.

That being said though, I'd like to see this continue to be iterated on, as per some of the suggestions in the thread already, such as being able to anchor guns outside a PI hangar, although you hinted that there's plans of some sort in the works for this.

Having these be restricted to subcapital combat ships and freighters, JFs, and Orcas would be great, although it might be a little awkward to do so. Perhaps to restrict them getting blobbed, put diminishing returns on the amount of damage they take from each additional pilot over X pilots? The idea of being able to set multiple tax rates based on standings is good, but there's still the important question of how much HP these will have.

And any timeline on when we can see these things on SiSi?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#71 - 2011-10-18 14:11:12 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
David Carel wrote:
a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%?

b) Can you anchor a Customs Office next to a station/outpost?


Wow, that was a good idea but it's not the case. If the time fairy smiles, then maybe...but don't count on it.
The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.



I'm pretty sure I've seen moons closer than 100k from a planet. I might be wrong.

Where I am.

Malakai Draevyn
Internet SpaceShips Is Serious Business
#72 - 2011-10-18 14:11:17 UTC
Okay..... I get it - a lot of people are going 'wooooo - PI changes' - but isn't this gonna utterly screw over the 'little guy' trying to scratch a living in nullsec ?

PI materials are gonna go through the roof, price wise. These BPCs / gantries will be auctioned off to the highest bidder - after all, it's a FW / Incursion runner's wet dream to be given exclusive access to something that anyone who wants to run a lowsec/nullsec POS *needs* - and then you have to get the damn thing to wherever you are already doing PI in order to plant a structure that most people will just use as a 'oh - it's there' kinda deal.

IMHO - you have just added an isk sum of about 150 mil (after the inflationary greed exhibited by most players) and another cloaky hauler run to the hassle of trying to get out into nullsec.

To hell with it - let's all just head off back to Empire - it's getting to the point where I am wondering "Is nullsec worth it anymore?"
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#73 - 2011-10-18 14:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Bloodpetal wrote:

So, it becomes a population issue, the more populated areas will be more valuable, for more throughput for more taxes. But who can and will contest with the major alliances in low sec, if the major alliances want to take that all over?

How much isk do you think they'll make from them? It might not be worth it for big alliances to do things like that.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#74 - 2011-10-18 14:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec.

HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE.


You forget one thing, everyone in nullsec is bored out of thier skull of shooting structures, maybe some lone super will reinforce your office (depending on hp) but no one will get a big fleet together too shoot these without a big chance to get a fight.



Knowing your leaders, I'd say it's the other way.


I'd take over all the planets that I could in low sec and adjacent NPC null sec and wait for the fight to come to us. Then trounce the hell out of anyone who wanted your planets. The major way I could see this working is if we attacked 15 planets that belonged to, let's say, goonz, and then hoped they spread their forces thin enough to not be able to defend them all and hope to take one down.


But then the next day it would be the same thing again. They'd just take it back. Woot?

Where I am.

Raziphan Rebular
Path of Dooppa
#75 - 2011-10-18 14:15:34 UTC
Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'.
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#76 - 2011-10-18 14:16:23 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Starr Tookus wrote:
So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.

Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed?


Currently: Nothing.

You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.



Mimidae Risk Solutions in first. :)


The major issue, I have to tell you, with that thinking - as a Mercenary already, is that the value has to definitely increase enough to want to hire Mercs to do it.


It's also the BLOB factor. The reality is, no Merc can outblob a major alliance/crew. it is just not happening (Unless you're PL I guess).


Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec.


HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE.


I love the idea, but you're not going to stop the griefing by simply using the reinforcement timer function. It's going to become a sov mechanic all over again. The biggest numbers win. Over and over. You need to fix that and make it viable in other ways.


Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it.

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison

Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-10-18 14:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Much to say on this topic, but this comes prominently to mind:

Sweet mother of [diety], not another activity that is tied to highly exclusive corp roles. PI was once the domain of the masses, but now this customs office game play change makes PI planetary management the domain of the few. Using the same and sorely antiquated POS management roles may be cost effective from a implementation standpoint, but anybody who advocates for POS management / use reform is weeping in their cereal atm.

Suggestion: create new roles that are PI-specific for management of these new assets.

Edits / Addenda:

Question What will happen to PI goods that are present in the customs office when the transition takes place?

Question Will the EVE contracting system be available to these new customs offices? If not, is it feasible to have contracts local to the customs office implemented? Dropping cans in-space to "trade" goods between characters at a customs office feels so ghetto (and unpolished from a game play perspective).

Question Will there be customs office upgrades available (NOT IHUB-based) to afford greater benefit (with commensurate risk, of course) to the anchoring entity?

Attention Shooting more structures with timers. Cry Anybody who has ground down null-sec Sov structures or spent hours grinding down POSes (pre-Dominion) has likely died just a bit more inside. Again, the blob wins with this mechanic.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Hathrul
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2011-10-18 14:16:56 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:

The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.


so if you can change the location a bit of your custom office, will it have to be scanned down? because whats the point otherwise of having an area to deploy it

and if the location can be chosen, how will it be found and used? will it be done with combat scanner probes? still on overview for people with good standings? will you be able to set standings like +10 can see it on overview?
ukiyo e
Honorable and Trustworthy
#79 - 2011-10-18 14:18:38 UTC
Two questions:

1. As many others have already asked, what will the HP of these structures be?

2. Will the POCO still function when it is reinforced? Or will it behave like a POS?
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#80 - 2011-10-18 14:18:39 UTC
This change is full of possibilities, especially for lowsec/npc 0.0 entities.

The deciding factor will be the EHP of the offices. If at all possible, I would encourage CCP not to go with raw HP for this. Rather, give it low base HP but very high resists (for example 10k raw hp with 99% resists for 1 mil EHP).

That way, it's not practical for the attacker to try and kill the CO while there are defenders remote repping it, but once the fight is won, killing it doesn't take long.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644