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Formula for near-perfect ME?
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#1 - 2012-10-15 20:17:55 UTC
I've been able to implement the formula for perfect ME in an MS Excel spreadsheet. It tells me that for a Caldari Shuttle, requiring 2750 tritanium, perfect ME is 499.

I assume that's correct.

But what about the concept of near-perfect ME? pME-1? At ME 499 waste drops from 2 to 1? But how do I calculate the breakpoint before that? When waste drops from 3 to 2?

I think that may be a useful concept for some blueprints, for the more expensive material types. I just don't have the mathematics to create a formula for doing so. I can brute-force it in Excel, typing in ME values at random to find the breakpoints, but that's hardly elegant.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-10-15 20:30:08 UTC
Gah. This reminded me that I owe you another spreadsheet reply. Will be up shortly. If I have time I'll come back to this thread as well.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2012-10-15 20:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Short answer:
* For 10% base waste on ML 0 BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML0 BPO / 5.5)
* For 5% base waste on ML 0 BPO BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / 10.5)
* General formula: Perfect = FLOOR( 2 * base waste * Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / (1 + base waste))

Long answer (see post #18)

Negative ML means the waste is multiplied.

0: 1x base waste
-1: 2 x base waste
-2: 3 x base waste
-3: 4 x base waste
-4: 5 x base waste
etc.

if ML >= 0
Total Material = ROUND(base material * (1.25 + base waste / (1 + ML) - Production Efficiency Skill * 5%))
if ML < 0
Total Material = ROUND(base material * (1.25 + base waste * (1 - ML) - Production Efficiency Skill * 5%))

Base Material is a database value without waste. It can be calculated from in-game BPO numbers by:
Base Material = ROUND(amount on ML 0 BPO / (1 + base waste))
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#4 - 2012-10-15 20:38:36 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Short answer:
* For 10% base waste on ML 0 BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML0 BPO / 5.5)
* For 5% base waste on ML 0 BPO BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / 10.5)
* General formula: Perfect = 2 * ase waste * Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / (1 + base waste)

Long answer (see post #18)

Negative ML means the waste is multiplied.

0: 1x base waste
-1: 2 x base waste
-2: 3 x base waste
-3: 4 x base waste
-4: 5 x base waste
etc.


Thanks for explaininf negative ML. I didn't know that. I presume negative ML may occur on faction BPC or T2 BPC.

But you misunderstood my question. I'm not asking about perfect ML (or ME as I've learned to call it). I'm asking about the breakpoint that comes right before perfection.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2012-10-15 20:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I posted the general formula above, plus there are examples of applying it in post #5 of the thread I linked.

I wrote a Perl script that calculates all ML levels, but only outputs ones where the quantities change, or ones where waste = 0. It also shows me the ISK cost and ISK wasted.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2012-10-15 22:00:20 UTC
Perfect for a caldari shuttle is 500 (I think you've possibly got an off by one error)

at 499, you've got 1 waste.
at 165 you've got 2.

The problem with trying to get a generic formula for it is the rounding.

Hence why I wrote the blueprint calculator with the slider. Sure, it has a manual step, but it's a 'good enough' solution.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-10-15 23:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Perfect:
FLOOR( 2750 Tritanium / 5.5 ) = 500
or using the general formula
FLOOR( 2 * 0.10 * 2750 Tritanium / (1 + 0.10) ) = 500

Material at any ME level:
Tritanium = ROUND( ROUND( 2750 / (1 + 10%) ) * (1 - 10% / (1 + ML)) )

Material at perfect:
Tritanium(at ML 500) = ROUND( 2500 * (1 + 0.10 / 501) ) = 2500
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#8 - 2012-10-16 05:26:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Perfect for a caldari shuttle is 500 (I think you've possibly got an off by one error)

at 499, you've got 1 waste.
at 165 you've got 2.

The problem with trying to get a generic formula for it is the rounding.

Hence why I wrote the blueprint calculator with the slider. Sure, it has a manual step, but it's a 'good enough' solution.


I might be 1 off on perfect ME. The rounding issue is tricky, and seems murky to me.
Lucy Oreless
Rise of Rephaim
#9 - 2012-10-16 07:40:37 UTC
Or you can use BPO-calculatorBlink

 I did not have sexual relations to THAT woman....
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#10 - 2012-10-17 07:02:39 UTC
I've made a brute-force spreadsheet, using all ME intervals from 0 to 40, then after that using intervals of 2, then 3, then 5, and so forth, and checking variout material amount requirements (again, using intervals greater than 1).

According to my spreadsheet, except for quite low ME values, perfect ME for any given mineral amount is approximately X/10. That is, if your blueprint requires 500 Nocxium, then perfect ME for Nocxium is 50.

Much more interesting, the step right below perfect ME is usually X/20 or close to it, thus for 500 Nocxium near-perfect(-1) ME is 24.

And the step below near-perfect ME, NPME(-2), is 16, approximately X/30.

This seems to hold for all material amounts, although the exact value may vary due to rounding.

So, to take the Cormorant BPO at ME0, it requires, sorted by quantity:

9 Megacyte
106 Zydrine
329 Nocxium
1059 Isogen
5056 Mexallon
11745 Pyerite
38861 Tritanium

Let's say I'd like to get near-perfect for Nocxium. 329/20=16.45 (my spreadsheet says 16 for 333 units), suggesting to me that an ME of 17 gets me there. Of course that doesn't get me anywhere near perfect for Tritanium, but wasting a few units of trit may be preferable to spending time and ISK on an enormous research effort. Or maybe I want to go near-perfect on Isogen or Mexallon instead.

Note that I'm not arguing that one should stop calcualting the actual waste, as in units. If you want to produce for profit, you obviously need to know how much you're paying for the raw materials. This is simply a rule of thumb.

Also note that I can't produce myself, yet. I'm only now in the process of training Research, Metallurgy and Production from 4 to 5, so all this is prep work for getting into industry. So when I look at a BPO, I see some figures that are influenced by my skillz
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2012-10-17 15:39:33 UTC
For most purposes, 20 is enough on a 10% base BPO, as that is less than 0.5% waste.

With most modules and all rigs and ammo, perfect is easy to research. Weapon modules are an exception. I usually look for 0 waste on Isogen or Mexallon. Trying to get 0 waste on Pyerite or Tritanium can be a bit difficult.

Ships are rarely researched to perfect, exceptions being capitals (though this takes about a year), frigates, and shuttles.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#12 - 2012-10-17 22:01:43 UTC
Lucy Oreless wrote:
Or you can use BPO-calculatorBlink



BPO Calc is a GODSEND ! Used it for years.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882