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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#281 - 2012-10-11 18:58:58 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
The more i think of buyable killrights, the less i see the point in them.

Can anybody help me out on this ?

For me, it sounds like - after a while - less and less people with killrights against them will be around,
because there are far more people claiming these killrights ... and worse, people will just rely on alts
to kill others and then will have them stick in stations until they are clean again.

The fantastic idea of having hundreds of people around me who i can shoot gets slapped in the face
by the actual reality of being in hek and - for a day - seeing dozens of people already killing each other ...
... and then it's over. Done. Finito. No more killrights to buy, because all of them have been claimed already.

For the idea of buyable killrights to work, there must be enough influx of people killing others,
so there are enough killrights to buy, which gets pointless, because EVERYBODY around me would
try to seek everybody out who has a killright on him...

Did i miss something ? Please excuse if the description of my thoughts wasn't accurate enough to
explain the mess it makes in my head.



It is my understanding you do NOT have to make your killrights public... that is a choice you make when granted killrights.

Killrights are easier to get with this new system. They are now granted on illegal aggression, not just on ship destruction. This makes getting killrights much easier, and more common (especially for groups of players that gank freighters in highsec).

Killrights are easier to shed in this system (when they are made public), but then the guy that was granted the killrights in the first place actually makes some money in retribution for their loss....

Overall, these are good changes... as killrights become much more "useful", but you wont see a huge population of highsec players with killrights on them.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#282 - 2012-10-11 18:59:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
If you have a 2b bounty on your head.... then, to redeem that bounty with ONE LOSS, your ship would need to be worth 10 billion... Guess what... people will already gank your if you're carrying that much, so very little is changing for you..

The only thing that is at all changed is the "minimum value" you can safely haul before it becomes worthwhile to gank you. And frankly, its working as intended... don't be an asshat and people won't place large bounties on you!!!!

But that's the point: one can get a bounty placed on them for any reason, even for lols, which bored people with piles of ISK will do.

At 20% of a large enough bounty, I would consider grinding down the bounty to a less inviting level, with my alts getting the kills, drops, and salvage. It would cost me ISK to do that, but I'd be willing to pay.

Hey... what about allowing people to buy their bounty off, or just reduce it? ISK paid could be returned directly to the person that placed the bounty, or just donate it directly to the CONCORD children's fund (ISK sink).
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#283 - 2012-10-11 18:59:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
But this is still something we're discussing
* Excluding NPC corps, and assisting Outlaws in high-sec


What's making me really sad about this is that there's *NO* reason to believe
these people have any *ACTUAL* experience in this...
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2012-10-11 19:00:44 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
The more i think of buyable killrights, the less i see the point in them.

Can anybody help me out on this ?

For me, it sounds like - after a while - less and less people with killrights against them will be around,
because there are far more people claiming these killrights ... and worse, people will just rely on alts
to kill others and then will have them stick in stations until they are clean again.

The fantastic idea of having hundreds of people around me who i can shoot gets slapped in the face
by the actual reality of being in hek and - for a day - seeing dozens of people already killing each other ...
... and then it's over. Done. Finito. No more killrights to buy, because all of them have been claimed already.

For the idea of buyable killrights to work, there must be enough influx of people killing others,
so there are enough killrights to buy, which gets pointless, because EVERYBODY around me would
try to seek everybody out who has a killright on him...

Did i miss something ? Please excuse if the description of my thoughts wasn't accurate enough to
explain the mess it makes in my head.



The point of the victim is to try to cash in on the loss of his ship. Say I get killed by someone and I am in a 200mil mining barge. I can put up a 50mil isk kill right on that guys head. Now for 30 days until someone kills the guy I will recieve 50mil everytime someone engages him. If he get engaged and gets killed, well thats 50 mil in my pocket; but if he gets away then I get the 50 mil still but in 15 minutes time someone tries again I get another 50 mil.

The kill rite will have to be high enough that he won't want to pay for it (if he does thats 50mil out of his own pocket, which is a result in itself) but low enough that others will want to pay that amount to take a shot at him.

Its a very odd dynamic but should make for some very interesting gameplay.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#285 - 2012-10-11 19:02:08 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Overall, these are good changes... as killrights become much more "useful", but you wont see a huge population of highsec players with killrights on them.

Then i fail to see the point of this.

As i noted above, there will be people with killrights in highsec for a while,
but that'll spiral down to zero.

Buyable killrights for lowsec people ? What's the point? They'll shoot each other anyway.
Highsec people going after lowsec people for killrights ? No point either.

I'm not saying they are bad changes, but i only see it spiraling down to
"nothing to do, because it's all done" ... really fast.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#286 - 2012-10-11 19:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Strata Maslav wrote:
The point of the victim is to try to cash in on the loss of his ship. Say I get killed by someone and I am in a 200mil mining barge. I can put up a 50mil isk kill right on that guys head. Now for 30 days until someone kills the guy I will recieve 50mil everytime someone engages him. If he get engaged and gets killed, well thats 50 mil in my pocket; but if he gets away then I get the 50 mil still but in 15 minutes time someone tries again I get another 50 mil.

The kill rite will have to be high enough that he won't want to pay for it (if he does thats 50mil out of his own pocket, which is a result in itself) but low enough that others will want to pay that amount to take a shot at him.

Its a very odd dynamic but should make for some very interesting gameplay.

I appreciate your response, but i fail to see it in context with my actual concern ...

... namely that there'll be nothing to do because it's all done, really soon.

Edit: btw, i'm not concerned because of myself. All these changes sadly don't affect me at all,
although i really hoped they somehow would spice up my game a bit more.
Back to UDK i guess..
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#287 - 2012-10-11 19:04:40 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Oh, and a second question: Will he be able to know who put the bounty on him? I very much doubt he remembers me. For him, it was just another Tuesday in low-sec.

Wait, third question: I lent a small amount of ISK to a player about 3 years ago. He never paid back; I think he stopped playing. If I dump a bounty on him of, say, 10 times the amont I lent him, and he resumes playing again, and he contacts me and begs for mercy, is there any way I can retract my bounty on him? Like if he agrees to pay the ISK back to me?

second question: We are still discussing this internally. At the moment, it's a no, but we are definitely considering having this information available.

third question: You will not be able to retract bounties.

Bubanni wrote:
1: "This allows anyone in the vicinity of the suspect to engage him legally." As in when someone buys the kill right... this is way too effective, it should only work for the person buying the kill right

2: when anyone can buy the kill right, what stops the guy with the kill right on from using an alt to kill himself while he is in a rookieship?


1: We are using the suspect flag for 2 reasons: One is to allow your fleet to help you with your revenge. Two is that we are trying to move away from single player to single player aggression flags, as you can see with the new crimewatch mechanics.

2: The owner of the kill right sets the price. If your "friend" (alt) is willing to pay that price, then your old victim just got some money back to compensate him for being the target of your undoubtedly heinous criminal act.


But if it's on the jita undock or somewhere like that :3, what if it was just "everyone in my fleet"... that would make more sense

Also I remembered what I thought about earlier... What if the killright included information about the targets location (if in high sec at least) so lvl agents for finding people aren't that required?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#288 - 2012-10-11 19:06:50 UTC
Add ISK value amount to ship/cargo scanner result.

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#289 - 2012-10-11 19:08:06 UTC
Strata Maslav wrote:
Panhead4411 wrote:
MisterNick wrote:
So if someone buys a killright that's on you, everyone in the area is free to wade in as well?

Note to self, no more autopilot travelling Pirate


Yeah, and it better not only cost 1m isk to do it....though would be an interesting way to keep someone docked, just spend 1m every 15 minutes to keep them permanently "suspect"ed...

I have a feeling this wasn't very well thought out. Will mean the next time i find a Botting CNR, i might not want to kill it b/c then instead of having to find me themselves, the botter will merely have to click the 'public' option for the KillRight, and for the next 30 days i'll have to dodge random 15 minute "suspect" flags whenever someone feels like dropping pocket change to watch me dance.


"If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’"

You have a 1 mil kill rite on your head? Undock in a T1 frigate tell your corp mate to buy the kill rite and blow up your ship. You give him the 1 mil and the kill rite is done.

This is why they have put the ability to change the amount of the kill right.

The fun is when you kill your alt and put a put a 50mil kill right on your head. You sit there waiting for someone to pay then you run around the system for 15 minutes. Cha ching 50 million. This will be the new dynamic game play that this whole system will bring.

Kill rite baiting.


First, CCP hasn't stated what happens when you survive the "Redeemed" killright.... you might not get paid unless the killright is fulfilled, not just activated.

Also, people probably won't pay 50m to kill your frigate....

Finally, if you are in a ship that someone's willing to pay 50m to kill, I'm willing to bet you'll be caught off guard sooner or later.

TWHC Assistant
#290 - 2012-10-11 19:08:57 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am confused.
I have read the dev blog twice.
I see the part in the blog where the -1 sec status requirement has been removed, so that makes me think anyone in the game, in any sec area, can have a bounty on them, and be a target if someone if some bounty hunter is willing to accept high sec consequences of Concord.

So what is to stop someone like goons from placing a 10 billion isk bounty on someone they dislike, which pays out with 50 billion ISK in ship and implant losses, then restarting the bounty again, until the person they have set the bounty on has had their assets completely wiped out?


I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?

Ganking costs you sec status and is considered a criminal act.

You still fail to see how this is different?
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#291 - 2012-10-11 19:09:22 UTC
So many blogs!! <333

Stuff is starting to moooooove

/c

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Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#292 - 2012-10-11 19:09:36 UTC
All of this would be so much more fun if i could just buy the right to kill somebody,
regardless if he ever aggressed somebody or not.

Oh my, it would be one beautiful massacre, all day long ....
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2012-10-11 19:11:11 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
If you have a 2b bounty on your head.... then, to redeem that bounty with ONE LOSS, your ship would need to be worth 10 billion... Guess what... people will already gank your if you're carrying that much, so very little is changing for you..

The only thing that is at all changed is the "minimum value" you can safely haul before it becomes worthwhile to gank you. And frankly, its working as intended... don't be an asshat and people won't place large bounties on you!!!!

But that's the point: one can get a bounty placed on them for any reason, even for lols, which bored people with piles of ISK will do.

At 20% of a large enough bounty, I would consider grinding down the bounty to a less inviting level, with my alts getting the kills, drops, and salvage. It would cost me ISK to do that, but I'd be willing to pay.

Hey... what about allowing people to buy their bounty off, or just reduce it? ISK paid could be returned directly to the person that placed the bounty, or just donate it directly to the CONCORD children's fund (ISK sink).


Buying it off wouldnt be cost effective. For example someone puts 500 mil bounty on my head. Now if I want to pay it off then I would have to pay the 500 million? Where does that go to? At a payout of 20% a 500mil bounty covers ship kills x5 that amount. So the bounty is actually covers you for 2.5bil in ship losses.

If it goes back to the person who put it on my head in the first place he would just put the bounty back on my head. So you pay 2.5 bil back to Concord to remove you bounty? Its sounds like you are on the losing side here.
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#294 - 2012-10-11 19:11:46 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am confused.
I have read the dev blog twice.
I see the part in the blog where the -1 sec status requirement has been removed, so that makes me think anyone in the game, in any sec area, can have a bounty on them, and be a target if someone if some bounty hunter is willing to accept high sec consequences of Concord.

So what is to stop someone like goons from placing a 10 billion isk bounty on someone they dislike, which pays out with 50 billion ISK in ship and implant losses, then restarting the bounty again, until the person they have set the bounty on has had their assets completely wiped out?


I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?

Ganking costs you sec status and is considered a criminal act.

You still fail to see how this is different?


Do you?

Claiming a bounty does not make you immune to sec penalties.

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-10-11 19:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
I don't see how the new Kill Rights system does anything but discourage PvP in highsec. As Rotosequence describes the new system, it is engage highsec gangbang functionality.

Previous system, the kill rights were one-to-one. I admit that I like the idea of being able to sell a kill right, but the system should still remain one-to-one.

Not the case though. As soon as a kill right is activated, the target receives a suspect flag, opening them to aggression from EVERYONE.

Some people will continue to give no ***** if they can be free-for-alled, but this will definitely cause many people to think twice before grabbing a criminal flag in highsec, because it means they can be dogpiled at anytime in highsec and without warning.

More evidence of CCP's ongoing development criteria of safening up highsec space.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#296 - 2012-10-11 19:13:34 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Overall, these are good changes... as killrights become much more "useful", but you wont see a huge population of highsec players with killrights on them.

Then i fail to see the point of this.

As i noted above, there will be people with killrights in highsec for a while,
but that'll spiral down to zero.

Buyable killrights for lowsec people ? What's the point? They'll shoot each other anyway.
Highsec people going after lowsec people for killrights ? No point either.

I'm not saying they are bad changes, but i only see it spiraling down to
"nothing to do, because it's all done" ... really fast.


The point is, when killrights do happen (which will be more often), they will actually be worth something...

A miner in a belt that gets ganked typically wont' do anything with that killright... now they can sell it for isk. Or redeem it so that a whole gang of ships can gank that player again...

A Freighter gets ganked by 10 talos for it's loot.. .It will now have 10 killrights to sell, which can be redeemed instantly to gank those talos pilots as they are preparing for the next freighter gank....

It makes killrights worthwhile.... This is not about creating tons and tons of legal targets in highsec, its about fixing the killright system so people can use them to get retribution!
Reticle
Sight Picture
#297 - 2012-10-11 19:14:26 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Reticle wrote:
I'm not sure either of you "gets it." Do the math. Do you have any idea what kind of bounty you'd have to place to make it worth it for a single gank? Remember, the gankers get paid only a portion of the total. So that portion must equal or exceed the cost of the gank.

You're forgetting drops.

You're forgetting that a pilot with a bounty on his head is highly unlikely to fit officer mods and such. But you keep dreaming of that awesome kill.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#298 - 2012-10-11 19:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Some people will continue to give no ***** if they can be free-for-alled, but this will definitely cause many people to think twice before grabbing a criminal flag in highsec, because it means they can be dogpiled at anytime in highsec and without warning.

As i can tell by experience, i can only agree with this. Most people ARE cowards in a videogame.

Otoh, maybe i should open up a school for highsec resident outlaws,
so people stop being afraid of minor issues like being -10 and FFA.
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2012-10-11 19:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Solstice Project wrote:
All of this would be so much more fun if i could just buy the right to kill somebody,
regardless if he ever aggressed somebody or not.

Oh my, it would be one beautiful massacre, all day long ....


The best thing is you can put a kill right on your own head and bait fights.

1) Attack Alt in nub ship
2) Use alt to put 20 mil kill right on your head.
3) Put a bounty on your head for 20% of the cost of you ship.
4) Sit there in your 100mil ship waiting for someone to attack you hoping to make a quick easy 40mil
5) Dont die for 15 minutes (Run away/fight back??)
6) ??
7) 20mil Profit
8) Do this for 30 days
9) Repeat
CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#300 - 2012-10-11 19:16:36 UTC
Reticle wrote:
There's a lot about this that I could like... but unfortunately it will not work as intended.

1. Clarify please--Someone accepts my killright on a Bad Guy that I put up for rent/sale at 50mill. Bad guy gets Suspect flag, but the White Knight with the Kill Right isn't in the area. Now other people attack the Bad Guy, kill him. White Knight pays for kill right that others exercise. Is that correct? Or does the Bad Guy get flagged ONLY for the White Knight? If it's not just for the White Knight, this system is dead on arrival. Why would I pay for the right for other people to kill him? Worse still, I have a kill right on someone and put it up for 1 isk. My alt accepts the kill right, the Bad Guy gets Suspect flag. Escapes. I repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Keeping bad guy yellow, for 1 isk, from anywhere in the Universe, for 30 days. (Assuming I understand this at all)

2. Corp/Alliance bounties--Same problem as wardecs. Corps/individuals just drop alliance/corp. Does the bounty for corp/alliance get bounced back similar to the inactive player bounty return? Under what circumstances? If all the members of a corp drop corp and the corp has one active member remaining (say, a perma docked Jita trader), am I SOL?

3. How in the heck is anyone going to collect bounties on non-criminals in high sec? The only available options for doing so would be suicide ganks and war decs. War decs are broken. Evading them is easy and probably always will be (for perfectly valid, understandable reasons, like perma griefing). Very few corporations are in a position where they can't readily corp hop or hide important assets like POS's in hidden alt corps. Suiciding has been neutered to death in Retribution (criminal flag for even ATTEMPTING a gank, never mind being successful) and even if it hadn't been, the attacker would be generating a kill right for the killing the defender to get the bounty. A bounty, by the way, that will not in any way pay for the costs of suiciding the target in the first place. And since it will take many more people to suicide gank him, he'll actually end up with a stack of kill rights!

4. What's to stop a corp/alliance from doing this: I put a bounty on an alliance. The alliance opens up an alt corp, fills it with 2 week heroes, forms fleet of noobships. The alliance puts their guys in insured, but not fitted ships, flies the fleet into the noobship fleet. Alt corp wipes out fleet, getting a % of the value of the ISK loss. If that % of the ISK loss that they receive as bounty is more than the loss incurred by subtracting the insurance payout from the cost of the ship, they'll actually make money doing it.

1. When you buy a kill right, you do so in space when you can see the target of the kill right and the suspect flag is activated immediately. Think of it more like a hunting license than a commodity that changes hands. You paid for the opportunity of a kill, not a guarantee.

2. When a corp or alliance is disbanded, all remaining bounties on it are returned to those who placed the bounties.

3. You can collect bounties in any security. Bounties will not help you get kills in high sec, but they will reward you for your efforts if you do manage to get them.

4. The payment scheme will be set up so that a kill will not pay out more ISK in bounties than was lost in the kill.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]