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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
Megan DeMonet
Direct Action.
The Lounge Lizards
#321 - 2012-10-11 19:34:24 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Let me see if I understand this right.

You can place a bounty on any player/corp/alliance.
There is no sec status requirement anymore for placing the bounty.
Standard crimewatch rules will still apply.


So how does this not become a complete replacement of the insurance for ganking?

Just place a bounty on your target?

Pay 10mil for gank Catalyst. Add 5mil bounty. Gank the target, scoop loot, salvage, and collect the new form of insurance.

Am I missing part of it that will prevent this?


*edit for grammar*


So... you spend 5mil to put a bounty on a ship... and then you get that 5m back when you blow it up.... There's no gain there!!



it sounds as if sopme people are thinking... bounty = kill rights.

it does not, bounty system and kill rights are completely seperate, even though they can overlap

A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Imam walk into a bar......

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2012-10-11 19:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tippia wrote:
[
Solstice Project wrote:
As i noted above, there will be people with killrights in highsec for a while,
but that'll spiral down to zero.
Yes? Why is that a problem? It means people are exercising their kill rights rather than let them sit untouched. This is a good thing.

And again i am wondering about how you are able to totally misunderstand my words
and just read what you want to read, but i'll try in a manner that enables you to comprehend.

Of *COURSE* they are exercising their killrights, which is a good thing.
The actual issue is, as you seem to acknowledge,
that it's taking a spiral down to zero,
with nobody left that one could buy killrights from.

You completely ignored the ultimate end, namely that there won't be anybody left with killrights
and this will happen rather sooner than later.

If you only manage to respond half-assed, how about not responding at all.

edit: so, although obvious ... what kind of mechanic will motivate people to shoot others
and risk being FFA ? Nobody yet realised that most people are cowards who would never
dare going FFA at all ?

Thank you for any response that would show me how this is resolved.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#323 - 2012-10-11 19:37:36 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
People don't go after targets that are marginally profitable... they go after targets that are blatantly profitable...

Your generalization is faulty.
I don't care about money. I just fry everything i can, disregarding profits of the attempt to kill somebody.



We're talking about suicide ganking (SG) in highsec, and whether a large bounty will "sway" suicide gankers to gank a target.

-- If you are NOT SG'ing for profit... then the bounty will have no effect on you...
-- If you are SG'ing for profit, then the bounty helps your profit margin, but generally speaking, not enough to matter. Exceptions to this might be extraordinarily valuable ships.
Example where it may matter: a JF pilots with a 1b+ bounty. Note: if you're a JF pilot with that large a bounty, you probably stole the JF and deserve to be suicide ganked, so the bounty system is working as intended!!
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2012-10-11 19:39:47 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
People don't go after targets that are marginally profitable... they go after targets that are blatantly profitable...

Your generalization is faulty.
I don't care about money. I just fry everything i can, disregarding profits of the attempt to kill somebody.



We're talking about suicide ganking (SG) in highsec, and whether a large bounty will "sway" suicide gankers to gank a target.

-- If you are NOT SG'ing for profit... then the bounty will have no effect on you...
-- If you are SG'ing for profit, then the bounty helps your profit margin, but generally speaking, not enough to matter. Exceptions to this might be extraordinarily valuable ships.
Example where it may matter: a JF pilots with a 1b+ bounty. Note: if you're a JF pilot with that large a bounty, you probably stole the JF and deserve to be suicide ganked, so the bounty system is working as intended!!

Tbh, your last post helped me realize that there is a small chance that i'll catch shuttles/frigates and their pods
with bounty on them ... and i *will* check this out. :) I don't care about the money, but it adds at least SOMETHING ...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#325 - 2012-10-11 19:39:55 UTC
StarRanger 2ndClass wrote:
Are the Billboards going to give the names of Most Wanted in that region of space or just in general?

Also, it would be cool if you could access a Billboard to see if the guy your looking for came through the system recently so you can try to track them. Twisted

For good measure, have them activate some flashing red lights and a siren if he's in the system right now. Twisted

Solstice Project wrote:
The actual issue is, as you seem to acknowledge,
that it's taking a spiral down to zero,
with nobody left that one could buy killrights from.
…and why is that, seeing as how they'll be much more common under this new system and seeing as how there will be new incentives to keep collecting them? I'm not ignoring anything. I'm asking you why it will happen and why it will be a bad thing.
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2012-10-11 19:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Solstice Project wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[
Solstice Project wrote:
As i noted above, there will be people with killrights in highsec for a while,
but that'll spiral down to zero.
Yes? Why is that a problem? It means people are exercising their kill rights rather than let them sit untouched. This is a good thing.

And again i am wondering about how you are able to totally misunderstand my words
and just read what you want to read, but i'll try in a manner that enables you to comprehend.

Of *COURSE* they are exercising their killrights, which is a good thing.
The actual issue is, as you seem to acknowledge,
that it's taking a spiral down to zero,
with nobody left that one could buy killrights from.

You completely ignored the ultimate end, namely that there won't be anybody left with killrights
and this will happen rather sooner than later.

If you only manage to respond half-assed, how about not responding at all.

From the Dev Blog


Quote:
Kill rights
Performing an action against another player that gets you a Criminal flag will also award a kill-right to that person. This will happen regardless of whether or not the target ship was destroyed. This will feed in to the revamped bounty system that Team Super Friends will be talking about very shortly, so look for a dev blog coming from them soon.

Graph depicting what situation create a Criminal Flag
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#327 - 2012-10-11 19:45:46 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[
Solstice Project wrote:
As i noted above, there will be people with killrights in highsec for a while,
but that'll spiral down to zero.
Yes? Why is that a problem? It means people are exercising their kill rights rather than let them sit untouched. This is a good thing.

And again i am wondering about how you are able to totally misunderstand my words
and just read what you want to read, but i'll try in a manner that enables you to comprehend.

Of *COURSE* they are exercising their killrights, which is a good thing.
The actual issue is, as you seem to acknowledge,
that it's taking a spiral down to zero,
with nobody left that one could buy killrights from.

You completely ignored the ultimate end, namely that there won't be anybody left with killrights
and this will happen rather sooner than later.

If you only manage to respond half-assed, how about not responding at all.

edit: so, although obvious ... what kind of mechanic will motivate people to shoot others
and risk being FFA ? Nobody yet realised that most people are cowards who would never
dare going FFA at all ?

Thank you for any response that would show me how this is resolved.


Suicide ganking is not going to stop, as its waaayyyyy too profitable..... so killrights will continue to be generated by people that don't understand why putting 200m in an iteron III or 20b in a Freighter is a bad idea. Those people can sell their killrights, to recoup some loss.

Ganking PODS in lowsec will continue, generating killrights...

Will there be enough killrights for you to fly around every system and hunt down people every day? Probably not... But they will still be generated, and this system means they will now be utilized too!
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#328 - 2012-10-11 19:52:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and why is that, seeing as how they'll be much more common under this new system and seeing as how there will be new incentives to keep collecting them? I'm not ignoring anything. I'm asking you why it will happen and why it will be a bad thing.

Aye.
It'll be a bad thing because, after every killright is claimed, there's nobody left to shoot.

I'm trying to bring my experience from hek into this. At first, there'll be a carnage,
but sooner or later all the killrights have been bought up and claimed
and there'll be no more new to buy.

That's the point. It's a downward spiral with no fresh content, once it's all used up.

I don't know if you know, but i can tell you *for sure* that most people are way too afraid of risking becoming FFA.
As this will happen, i fail to see how new killrights should come up, once the old ones are all used up.

Even worse is the possibility of manymanymany people staying docked until old killrights have vanished.
(meaning killrights that came up pre-expansion ... no idea if they count or not)

This sounds like more people just using alts for kills, which will then hide in station until the killrights have vanished...


Did i express my concerns in a proper manner ?

TL;DR: What incentive is there to keep people onto shooting others, so killrights form ?
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#329 - 2012-10-11 19:56:00 UTC
I really think the way you want "suspect flag" and killrights to go hand in hand is a bad idea!!! it really shouldn't be everyone in who comes by who should be allowed to shoot the person... why not just make it only the fleet you are in that can shoot the target?

you will end up with people with killrights on their head being completly unable to go anywhere near systems with high trafic/population

thus forcing people with killrights to stay away from places like Jita?... instead of having it be something that can encourage pvp (not that it wont be used)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2012-10-11 19:56:40 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Suicide ganking is not going to stop, as its waaayyyyy too profitable..... so killrights will continue to be generated by people that don't understand why putting 200m in an iteron III or 20b in a Freighter is a bad idea. Those people can sell their killrights, to recoup some loss.

That's not my concern ... most gankers are cowards using alts they don't need to care about,
so they don't actually count anyway. No difference to before. None. Absolutely none.

Lowsec people don't count either, because anybody could always head to lowsec,
completely ignoring if there are killrights on somebody or not.
In Lowsec, FFA is standard. No difference to before.

In the end, there's no reason to believe that there'll be more fights in highsec ...
... where it matters, because that's where all the people are.

I give up. *throws towel* I can just try and find out if there's something different
once the expansion is live ...
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#331 - 2012-10-11 19:57:55 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
I really think the way you want "suspect flag" and killrights to go hand in hand is a bad idea!!! it really shouldn't be everyone in who comes by who should be allowed to shoot the person... why not just make it only the fleet you are in that can shoot the target?

you will end up with people with killrights on their head being completly unable to go anywhere near systems with high trafic/population

thus forcing people with killrights to stay away from places like Jita?... instead of having it be something that can encourage pvp (not that it wont be used)

The suspect part of this would be a great idea if people wouldn't be such cowards in a videogame.
All of this would have the potential of pure awesomeness, if it wasn't for the people ...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#332 - 2012-10-11 19:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Solstice Project wrote:
It'll be a bad thing because, after every killright is claimed, there's nobody left to shoot.
…so the day after EVE closes down. That's not really a worry, now is it.

Quote:
That's the point. It's a downward spiral with no fresh content, once it's all used up.

I don't know if you know, but i can tell you *for sure* that most people are way too afraid of risking becoming FFA.
Eh, no. There's far too much money to be made from taking a kill right for them to ever run out. With these changes, there will be even more money to make and the old reasons are not going away. So here's how new kill rights will come up: people shoot each other, same as always, and for the same old reasons.

The ones who are generating them right now are already making themselves FFA. Something they're already doing won't stop them from keep doing what they're doing.

Quote:
Did i express my concerns in a proper manner ?
Yes. They're just not convincing, especially in the face of the increased incentives to shoot people and the increased methods of generating those rights.
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2012-10-11 19:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Solstice Project wrote:


TL;DR: What incentive is there to keep people onto shooting others, so killrights form ?


Strata Maslav (earlier post) wrote:
The best thing is you can put a kill right on your own head and bait fights.

1) Attack Alt in nub ship
2) Use alt to put 20 mil kill right on your head.
3) Put a bounty on your head for 20% of the cost of you ship.
4) Sit there in your 100mil ship waiting for someone to attack you hoping to make a quick easy 40mil
5) Dont die for 15 minutes (Run away/fight back??)
6) ??
7) 20mil Profit
8) Do this for 30 days
9) Repeat


I cannot express this enough. This will be the *new* canflip.

Can anyone confirm that an aggressing a suspect in highsec allows them to fight back or will you just run away for 15 minutes?
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#334 - 2012-10-11 20:04:14 UTC
- Will this system work on pilots that are in an npc corporation, especially

when it involves live event rolepayers in pirate npc corp, sansha or guristas, etc


- Can you add the option "share bounty in fleet, yes/no" as with agent rewards after mission completion.

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2012-10-11 20:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tippia wrote:
They're just not convincing, especially in the face of the increased incentives to shoot people and the increased methods of generating those rights.


You're talking about the new bounty system ? If so, then i can only hope that this will work out,
because if not ...


Strata Maslav wrote:
Quote:

1) Attack Alt in nub ship
2) Use alt to put 20 mil kill right on your head.
3) Put a bounty on your head for 20% of the cost of you ship.
4) Sit there in your 100mil ship waiting for someone to attack you hoping to make a quick easy 40mil
5) Dont die for 15 minutes (Run away/fight back??)
6) ??
7) 20mil Profit
8) Do this for 30 days
9) Repeat


I cannot express this enough. This will be the *new* canflip.

Can anyone confirm that an aggressing a suspect in highsec allows them to fight back or will you just run away for 15 minutes?

CCP said people are ALWAYS allowed to defend themselves.

Edit: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now i get what that meant ...............................
I believe outlaws won't be able to sell killrights ....................................... :(
There'd be lots of opportunity for me to entertain the locals of hek, if that was possible .........
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#336 - 2012-10-11 20:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Strata Maslav wrote:
Can anyone confirm that an aggressing a suspect in highsec allows them to fight back or will you just run away for 15 minutes?
Suspects can fight back against anyone who attacks them. Doing so creates “limited engagement” — the only player-to-player flag left in the game. Anyone butting in on a LE by providing remote support for either side will be flagged as suspect as well, so the suspect is pretty much on his own. The vigilante can get “support” in the form of other people shooting the same suspect, but he is also largely SOL when it comes to remote reps and the like unless his logi buddies are really keen on becoming free-for-all targets.

So yes, he can fight back, but with restrictions on what else he can bring to the fight.


Solstice Project wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now i get what that meant ...............................
I believe outlaws won't be able to sell killrights ....................................... :(
There'd be lots of opportunity for me to entertain the locals of hek, if that was possible .........
I don't see anything in the blog saying that they can't. It's more a matter of them having a harder time actually getting killrights to sell since, being outlaws, they're usually legal targets so attacking them won't trigger the C-flag that would give them the killright. If they manage to be illegally attacked, they should be able to sell it as well as anyone else.
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2012-10-11 20:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Solstice Project wrote:

Strata Maslav wrote:
Quote:

1) Attack Alt in nub ship
2) Use alt to put 20 mil kill right on your head.
3) Put a bounty on your head for 20% of the cost of you ship.
4) Sit there in your 100mil ship waiting for someone to attack you hoping to make a quick easy 40mil
5) Dont die for 15 minutes (Run away/fight back??)
6) ??
7) 20mil Profit
8) Do this for 30 days
9) Repeat


I cannot express this enough. This will be the *new* canflip.

Can anyone confirm that an aggressing a suspect in highsec allows them to fight back or will you just run away for 15 minutes?

CCP said people are ALWAYS allowed to defend themselves.


Ok so here in the new scenario based on this: FLAGS

Once you are engaged you fight back. If they engage in number in come the logistics. By assisting you with [Suspect] Flag they themselves become [Suspect] flagged, but they are able to rep you. You kill off the attackers. Loot their ships and wait for more to show up.

Edit:
When the criminal flag chart talks about assisting drones I assume this means logistic drones and not assisting combat drones to the guy with the kill rights one him? I am just trying to asses whether or not its possible to bring other dps ships into the fight without being directly shot of course.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#338 - 2012-10-11 20:19:23 UTC
Strata Maslav wrote:
Ok so here in the new scenario based on this: FLAGS

Once you are engaged you fight back. If they engage in number in come the logistics. By assisting you with [Suspect] Flag they themselves become [Suspect] flagged, but they are able to rep you. You kill off the attackers. Loot their ships and wait for more to show up.
Sure, but sooner or later, someone is going to get wind of that could of free-for-all logis and scrounge up a fleet to run in there and do some actual damage…

…and either way, more pew-pew so, yay! P
Jen Takhesis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2012-10-11 20:20:20 UTC
Podkill payout should be based on clone value plus implants and not just implants.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#340 - 2012-10-11 20:21:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Strata Maslav wrote:
Can anyone confirm that an aggressing a suspect in highsec allows them to fight back or will you just run away for 15 minutes?
Suspects can fight back against anyone who attacks them. Doing so creates “limited engagement” — the only player-to-player flag left in the game. Anyone butting in on a LE by providing remote support for either side will be flagged as suspect as well, so the suspect is pretty much on his own. The vigilante can get “support” in the form of other people shooting the same suspect, but he is also largely SOL when it comes to remote reps and the like unless his logi buddies are really keen on becoming free-for-all targets.

So yes, he can fight back, but with restrictions on what else he can bring to the fight.


Solstice Project wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now i get what that meant ...............................
I believe outlaws won't be able to sell killrights ....................................... :(
There'd be lots of opportunity for me to entertain the locals of hek, if that was possible .........
I don't see anything in the blog saying that they can't. It's more a matter of them having a harder time actually getting killrights to sell since, being outlaws, they're usually legal targets so attacking them won't trigger the C-flag that would give them the killright. If they manage to be illegally attacked, they should be able to sell it as well as anyone else.


Tippia... you are not completely correct on this...

Corp mates, alliance mates, and militia mates can provide Remote assistance to their allies in a Limited engagement, and will NOT be flagged suspect as long as the person they are repping is NOT a suspect. And what's worse, is that the Suspect can't attack those logistics ships either!!!!!

In short... you get free logistics from corp mates, alliance mates, and militia mates!!!

Please see the dev comment:
CCP Masterplan wrote:

Our current thinking on this is something like:

Assisting your own corp mates* in a Limited Engagement is always legally allowed (it won't be punished per se, but you'll still inherit any W/P/S/C flags they have)

But this is still something we're discussing
* Excluding NPC corps, and assisting Outlaws in high-sec