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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Bariolage
Control F9
#161 - 2012-10-11 16:39:56 UTC
Great new system. In high sec I could see it incentivizing the tracking of a bounty target's patterns, to find a moment where they are flying an expensively fitted ship, and creating an efficient set up to suicide gank them at a low cost for profit.

I see a window though for harassment that has no reprecussions for the insanely wealthy. It would be relatively cheap to keep excessive bounties on someone you just want to bother, with great material loss for them and low hassle for the harasser, and not much recourse in the long run.

Maybe each discrete bounty placed should have a expiration system.

An example of a system could be: placing a bounty would expire in one month, with the money returned to the bounty placer except for a nominal fee set at a rate that would not completely make bounties useless, but have some sort of reprecussion, say around 5 percent to concord. The percentage lost could also scale up, so a person placing a 1 billion isk bounty might lose let's say 7-9 percent upon expiration, 10 billion might lose 10-11 percent, etc.

Also, a system to automatically renew the bounty could be put in place for those that really want to keep up a bounty. Maybe with either a loss in the bounty total each month, or a renewal of the bounty, with the difference payed out of wallet.

With an expiration system in place, it would still achieve a lot of goals. People that rightfully feel wronged can place bounties on people, and keep them up if they feel like it and can afford it, while people that are just being harassed for inexplicable reasons can play a game of careful hiding and feel that they are at least draining the harassers pocket slowly, with the possibility of a reprieve from the harassment. Also, people that truly deserve a bounty would still have high total bounties in excess of billions, but built up each discretely from each player they've wronged, with a low expiration fee on each individual bounty. So if you want to role play a crazy scum ball, you'd have to be a crazy scum ball to lots of people to get bounty imfamy

This also generally disincentivizes people putting up incredibly high bounties just because they can on a whim, but allows them to do so if they really feel moved to.

Gaming the percentage rate would be possible yes, by having other individuals placing bounties (friends/alts) but at least a rich person that purely just wants to harass someone would have to manage a lot of discrete bounties and money in order to game it, and also helps in stopping people from putting up enormous sums on a whim.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#162 - 2012-10-11 16:41:08 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
How will the bounty system tie in with self destruct? Hopefully, now that SD triggers kill mails, everyone will get a cut of the bounty.


they already annouced that sd-ing will generate a killmail for the last person to do damage to the ship

I has all the eve inactivity
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#163 - 2012-10-11 16:41:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:



Ummm....big difference.
Now goons can place an X on someone's back, and ANY ganker, ANYWHRE, ANYTIME, can nail someone.
This essentially makes every ganker in space a member of the Ministry of Love.

Now, I am waiting for people to say , "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose", but imagine this scenario:

Goons hate someone. They place a 10 billion bounty on them. That person is flying a freighter, somewhere in high sec. The ship has a load of say, 700M, which is well below the usual safe threshold of 1 billion to make it profitable to gank a freighter. At current prices that ship is worth about 1.5 billion. That makes the payout of the bounty about 300M, plus the potential payoff of the payload of the freighter makes the gank profitable.

Or another scenario. Same victim wants to fly a Marauder in missions. Hull cost is about 800M. Now, you tack on T2 rigs, some faction stuff, and you can easily hit 2 billion in value. The bounty payout is 400M, and you can gank a mission boat in 0.5 space with 2-3 Tornados. Suddenly, the mission runner who usually is ignored by gankers, will ALWAYS be attacked.

With the existing system, the average ganker would say, look at a PvE BS and say, nah, since I am getting no payout, and unsure the nice modules will drop, so not worth it.
Now, not only is that person flagged as they stroll through the gate, ALL gankers will pounce, since the bounty guarantees that at worst they will recover their losses, and the modules are gravy.



Holy ****. I think he figured it out! Wow, congratz! You're a genius!

Dude. That's the freaking point...

Oh no, this doesn't nerf gankers?!?? WE"RE ALL DOOOOOMED.

/sarcasm.

Seriously, welcome to EVE. Sit back, and have a vodka and watch the place burn. /me twirls martini umbrella.

Where I am.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-10-11 16:41:35 UTC
Looks good, but some concerns and suggestions:

(1) The ability to place bounties on anyone and anything can, and (this being EVE) will be used to hold newer players and smaller corporations for ransom, or to just plain grief them. The wardec mechanic already protects large alliances from smaller ones; this mechanic will further tilt the balance toward well-established, wealthy null alliances. As has already been pointed out, an alliance like Goonswarm can quite easily place bounties on individual players to make ganking them profitable. We've already seen Goons use the metagame to drive players out of EVE; there's no real reason to make such behavior even easier.

There is a very simple and straightforward solution: keep the -1 sec status ceiling for bounties. If a player's sec status rises above -1, bounties will still be paid from the pool, but no new bounties can be placed on him. Similarly, if a bounty is placed on a corporation or alliance, bounties will only be paid for killing pilots with negative sec status. Can also pay bounties for players flagged as suspects or criminals. This will allow players to punish and hunt those who engage in pirate-like activity, without opening the floodgates for additional griefing and exploitation. If an alliance or a player wants to pay for suicide ganking or otherwise hunting a player with a high sec status, they can still do so -- Hulkageddon comes to mind.

(2) Kill rights should be lost if they are used to suspect-flag a player. The holder of the kill-rights should face a choice of either optioning his killright, or of holding it for later use. He should not be able to follow around the person who killed him and flag him as a suspect every fifteen minutes until he dies.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#165 - 2012-10-11 16:41:36 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am confused.
I have read the dev blog twice.
I see the part in the blog where the -1 sec status requirement has been removed, so that makes me think anyone in the game, in any sec area, can have a bounty on them, and be a target if someone if some bounty hunter is willing to accept high sec consequences of Concord.

So what is to stop someone like goons from placing a 10 billion isk bounty on someone they dislike, which pays out with 50 billion ISK in ship and implant losses, then restarting the bounty again, until the person they have set the bounty on has had their assets completely wiped out?


I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?

It is not. What is different is the incentive to actually do it, meaning it is much more likely to happen.

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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#166 - 2012-10-11 16:42:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Goons hate someone. They place a 10 billion bounty on them. That person is flying a freighter, somewhere in high sec. The ship has a load of say, 700M, which is well below the usual safe threshold of 1 billion to make it profitable to gank a freighter. At current prices that ship is worth about 1.5 billion. That makes the payout of the bounty about 300M, plus the potential payoff of the payload of the freighter makes the gank profitable.

Or another scenario. Same victim wants to fly a Marauder in missions. Hull cost is about 800M. Now, you tack on T2 rigs, some faction stuff, and you can easily hit 2 billion in value. The bounty payout is 400M, and you can gank a mission boat in 0.5 space with 2-3 Tornados. Suddenly, the mission runner who usually is ignored by gankers, will ALWAYS be attacked.

With the existing system, the average ganker would say, look at a PvE BS and say, nah, since I am getting no payout, and unsure the nice modules will drop, so not worth it.
Now, not only is that person flagged as they stroll through the gate, ALL gankers will pounce, since the bounty guarantees that at worst they will recover their losses, and the modules are gravy.

Solution: Stop making terrible posts and maybe the big bad Goonies won't place bounties on your head.

This is an excellent way for the playerbase to decide who is actually "bad" and it is completely awesome.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-10-11 16:44:39 UTC
Do bounty payouts on pods include the clone cost?

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

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Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-10-11 16:46:20 UTC
So you fixed the still broken hisec war decs by obsoleting them by way of this new bounty system

amirite?

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#169 - 2012-10-11 16:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
hmmm...

I seem to remember the salvage drone being in another devblog.

mañana mañana mañana....

That be-snatch asside... this new bounty system kicks ***. It's awesome. The idea of putting a bounty on a structure is awesome! Bounties on corps or alliances is pretty sweet too... I think you'll really be able to turn up the heat on a corp purely with ISK! That's awesome!

Edit: Awesome.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#170 - 2012-10-11 16:47:26 UTC
In regards to the bounty payout for blowing up someone's pod - not only include in your calculation the cost of implants, but also the cost of the clone itself. Moraguth's clones cost ALOT of money (please don't kill me, it's painful). I think maybe killing my pod should be worth more than killing the pod of some 2yr noob. Granted, we both have the same abilities to get away and hide in our pods since SP doesn't matter, but I still think it should be represented in the bounty payout.

If there's a 10m isk bounty on someone and you blow up their pod:

doing so against a player who has 100m sp should be worth more than against a player who only has 10m sp regardless of the implants in our heads.

But still totally include the implants... I never fly with a slave set or anything, but if I blow up someone who is, I want MOAR ISKIES!

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-10-11 16:48:42 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:

(2) Kill rights should be lost if they are used to suspect-flag a player. The holder of the kill-rights should face a choice of either optioning his killright, or of holding it for later use. He should not be able to follow around the person who killed him and flag him as a suspect every fifteen minutes until he dies.


lol why the hell not? Your in highsec and you want pvp. This is like a pvp beacon that follows you around. FFS, are the people that gank for a profession this big a group of sissies?

I will tell what it will be like. It will be like being a pirate in high sec. Welcome to the club.

I has all the eve inactivity
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#172 - 2012-10-11 16:49:13 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
In regards to the bounty payout for blowing up someone's pod - not only include in your calculation the cost of implants, but also the cost of the clone itself.

Do this, CCP.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#173 - 2012-10-11 16:50:48 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Goons hate someone. They place a 10 billion bounty on them. That person is flying a freighter, somewhere in high sec. The ship has a load of say, 700M, which is well below the usual safe threshold of 1 billion to make it profitable to gank a freighter. At current prices that ship is worth about 1.5 billion. That makes the payout of the bounty about 300M, plus the potential payoff of the payload of the freighter makes the gank profitable.

Or another scenario. Same victim wants to fly a Marauder in missions. Hull cost is about 800M. Now, you tack on T2 rigs, some faction stuff, and you can easily hit 2 billion in value. The bounty payout is 400M, and you can gank a mission boat in 0.5 space with 2-3 Tornados. Suddenly, the mission runner who usually is ignored by gankers, will ALWAYS be attacked.

With the existing system, the average ganker would say, look at a PvE BS and say, nah, since I am getting no payout, and unsure the nice modules will drop, so not worth it.
Now, not only is that person flagged as they stroll through the gate, ALL gankers will pounce, since the bounty guarantees that at worst they will recover their losses, and the modules are gravy.

Solution: Stop making terrible posts and maybe the big bad Goonies won't place bounties on your head.

This is an excellent way for the playerbase to decide who is actually "bad" and it is completely awesome.


And you wonder why people post with alts.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#174 - 2012-10-11 16:52:05 UTC
another idea, just like the one I suggested a few mins ago

(killrights being = personal wardec vs the pilot who "unrightfully" ganked you, lasting for 2-4 weeks, that could be sold/traded, either taking or giving isk for it, instead of something that can make him killable by everyone in high sec for 15 mins, and only working until he dies in a ship... this would work for the 2-4 weeks regardless of him dieing)

My other idea was that... aww crap I forgot what my other idea was now because I was doing the dishes... bah! but it was brilliant I tell you!

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#175 - 2012-10-11 16:52:09 UTC
Good stuff.

Will bounty rewards continue to be taxed by any corp tax as they currently are?
Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-10-11 16:52:22 UTC
I LOVE THIS NEW SYSTEM...

As a note, you do realize how much money will flow through this system right? i mean the Bounty on the Goons and friends is gonna be insane, and so wil the payouts lol Super kill ops will be even more wicked for the fleet attacking... especialy if the alliance has a big price on its head...

20% that seems low, i think it should be based more on the size of the open bounty, i mean if theres a 100b bounty on player and hes flying drakes it will take a trillion years to really make that all lol. But hes the most wanted person so instad i'm making 100% of the price of his ship and mods and pod.

Joe shmoe with 100m on him well ya hes not ranked that high so i only get 22% of his ships worth....

ONE OF THOSE FORESHADOWED ITEMS NEEDS TO BE DONE SOONER THAN LATER...

Restricting bounties!

If i put a bounty on Corp X, i dont want Corp Y there alt corp to be able to farm it. So let me designate "do not pay to" lists even a basic one.

And i agree with moraguth... include CLONE COST with the price of the pod payout.
Ray Sharkk
Khanid Salvations
#177 - 2012-10-11 16:52:34 UTC
This is an awesome set of changes. It sounds like it will be ginormous fun to put bounties on people in the future.

For more epeening I'd like to see the amount of open kill rights on a character and in an aggregated fashion on all characters of a corp too. Like "Pirate Corp has 532 kill rights pending on corp members" and "John Doe has 12 kill rights against him".
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#178 - 2012-10-11 16:52:50 UTC
Bubanni wrote:

My other idea was that... aww crap I forgot what my other idea was now because I was doing the dishes... bah! but it was brilliant I tell you!



maybe your other idea was to get a dishwasher?

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#179 - 2012-10-11 16:53:02 UTC
I seem to remember that right now a low sec kill generates a kill right. Is that correct? But now a low sec kill will not (except pods).

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#180 - 2012-10-11 16:53:20 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:

(1) The ability to place bounties on anyone and anything can, and (this being EVE) will be used to hold newer players and smaller corporations for ransom, or to just plain grief them. The wardec mechanic already protects large alliances from smaller ones; this mechanic will further tilt the balance toward well-established, wealthy null alliances. As has already been pointed out, an alliance like Goonswarm can quite easily place bounties on individual players to make ganking them profitable. We've already seen Goons use the metagame to drive players out of EVE; there's no real reason to make such behavior even easier.


Goonswarm is the greatest force for order in the EVE universe. By putting everyone in their proper place we can ensure a smoothly functioning EVE universe, and the EVE universe has always been better off when Goonswarm has decided to punish inappropriate behavior. Now, we will be able to crowd-source order-keeping and allow all people who want to see a more orderly highsec do their part.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.