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[Winter] New destroyers

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AlexHalstead
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#661 - 2012-10-08 17:26:27 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Doddy wrote:
AlexHalstead wrote:
Ark Anhammar wrote:

I'm afraid not. If you're getting half of your damage from turrets on your Myrm, then you must have abysmal drone skills. My suggestion is to train more drone skills (drone interfacting will give your drones a significantly stronger dd hit, drone ss will have them hitting more often, etc.).
I checked the DPS for Mymridon with maximum skills and no damage/control mods, no implants, using Hammerhead IIs and Heavy Neutron Blaster II with Antimatter charges using EFT.
On paper, the total DPS is 490.6. Blasters contribute 253 of that, Drones 237.6.
I do concede that the only way that total DPS can be achieved is if the Myrm is hugging its target at same time as its drones orbiting said target.

Switching to 250mm Railgun II in order to homogenize the engagement range as the Drone control range require Iridium charges and contribute 95.5 DPS for a total DPS of 333.1


Thats only 50m3 of drones btw, in dps deployment myrm usually uses 2-2-1

That would up the damage to 314.82 DPS using Gallente drones, making it about 25% more damage from drones vs guns.
Is that with bigger drones? I know that bigger drones have tracking penalty against smaller targets.

Use light to deal with frigates, Medium to deal with cruisers/battlecruisers, and so forth?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2012-10-08 17:35:06 UTC
AlexHalstead wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Doddy wrote:
AlexHalstead wrote:
Ark Anhammar wrote:

I'm afraid not. If you're getting half of your damage from turrets on your Myrm, then you must have abysmal drone skills. My suggestion is to train more drone skills (drone interfacting will give your drones a significantly stronger dd hit, drone ss will have them hitting more often, etc.).
I checked the DPS for Mymridon with maximum skills and no damage/control mods, no implants, using Hammerhead IIs and Heavy Neutron Blaster II with Antimatter charges using EFT.
On paper, the total DPS is 490.6. Blasters contribute 253 of that, Drones 237.6.
I do concede that the only way that total DPS can be achieved is if the Myrm is hugging its target at same time as its drones orbiting said target.

Switching to 250mm Railgun II in order to homogenize the engagement range as the Drone control range require Iridium charges and contribute 95.5 DPS for a total DPS of 333.1


Thats only 50m3 of drones btw, in dps deployment myrm usually uses 2-2-1

That would up the damage to 314.82 DPS using Gallente drones, making it about 25% more damage from drones vs guns.
Is that with bigger drones? I know that bigger drones have tracking penalty against smaller targets.

Use light to deal with frigates, Medium to deal with cruisers/battlecruisers, and so forth?

The strangest thing I have see regarding drones is the signature resolution of the sizes, small 25m, medium 125m, heavy 125m, sentry 400m, fighters 125m. Most cruisers have a signature radius of 125 or bigger, and battle cruisers are even bigger.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#663 - 2012-10-08 17:43:23 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update!


    Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones

    • Caldari:
  • Removed one high slot and launcher slot, gained one mid slot - thus layout now is 7 / 4 / 2, 7 launchers

    • Gallente:
  • Drone bandwidth increased to 35m3
  • Drone bay increased to 60m3
  • Turret number increased from 4 to 5
  • 5% hybrid turret damage bonus per level changed for 10% hybrid turret tracking bonus per level
  • Role bonus changed from 50% hybrid turret optimal range to 25% MWD speed to drones

    • Minmatar hull unchanged.


To answer some questions that have been asked before:

  • Why having a fixed damage bonus on the Caldari and Minmatar hulls, didn't you want to move away from this philosophy?
    • Yes we definitely do, when it makes sense. For instance, we kept a kinetic damage bonus on the Condor, while the Kestrel has a generic one. In this particular case however, having general damage bonuses on these two hulls would bring them too close of each other.

  • Don't you think the Caldari hull is going to have an insane alpha with light missiles, or just too good in general?
    • The layout change will help mitigate that somewhat. If it still too much of an issue we can always revert the light missile damage change and increase the ROF on light and rapid light missile launchers instead.

  • Why is the Amarr hull better at drone management than the Gallente one?
    • That was a good point that should now be fixed. The drone bay will however stay larger on the Amarr hull as it is a trait currently encountered in Amarr versus Gallente drone ships.

  • Isn't a 25% MWD drone bonus break drones trying to catch static targets?
    • CCP Fozzie made me run some tests at gunpoint, 25% seems to be okay.

  • What's the point of the Catalyst next to the new Gallente hull?
    • We're planning some changes for it - keep an eye for them in the next days on this thread.


    more to the point dont you think that and mwd bloom for a ship that already has best base speed is a bit op ?
    CheekyBabey
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #664 - 2012-10-08 19:12:29 UTC
    So getting off the Myrm EFT warrior's track as it's getting a bit pointless since the Myrm is a survivor of nerfs and also benefits from not having a split weapon system.

    Focusing back on the destroyer, would it be fair to say that a split weapon system would make it a better or worse ship for PVP?

    Is it better or worse for PVE?

    Does it fulfil a needed role?

    Is it heavily outclassed but other ships of the same size in PVE and PVP
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #665 - 2012-10-08 19:17:08 UTC
    CheekyBabey wrote:
    So getting off the Myrm EFT warrior's track as it's getting a bit pointless since the Myrm is a survivor of nerfs and also benefits from not having a split weapon system.

    Focusing back on the destroyer, would it be fair to say that a split weapon system would make it a better or worse ship for PVP?

    Is it better or worse for PVE?

    Does it fulfil a needed role?

    Is it heavily outclassed but other ships of the same size in PVE and PVP

    By not having a hybrid turret bonus it becomes attractive to many more players as they would no longer feel they have to train into hybrids to use this ship, unbonused turrets could be for hybrids, lasers, or projectiles. Greatly reducing the cross training SP needed to use this ship, as it will only take about 3 days to take to level 4 for most players.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #666 - 2012-10-08 21:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    CheekyBabey wrote:
    So getting off the Myrm EFT warrior's track as it's getting a bit pointless since the Myrm is a survivor of nerfs and also benefits from not having a split weapon system.

    Focusing back on the destroyer, would it be fair to say that a split weapon system would make it a better or worse ship for PVP?

    Is it better or worse for PVE?

    Does it fulfil a needed role?

    Is it heavily outclassed but other ships of the same size in PVE and PVP

    By not having a hybrid turret bonus it becomes attractive to many more players as they would no longer feel they have to train into hybrids to use this ship, unbonused turrets could be for hybrids, lasers, or projectiles. Greatly reducing the cross training SP needed to use this ship, as it will only take about 3 days to take to level 4 for most players.

    I'm not sure how anyone really benefits from that. New Gallente players would be primarily spec'd towards hybrids and would have to crosstrain to get proficient in using another weapons. Considering the other things that would be better trained and the fact that the lack of a gun bonus doesn't give them a specific reason to train another type, they are effectively locked to hybrids. And veterans I doubt would be too likely to train Gallente for this ship alone, thus making it more likely they would have trained hybrids to take full advantage of the frigate lineup.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #667 - 2012-10-08 21:13:49 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    CheekyBabey wrote:
    So getting off the Myrm EFT warrior's track as it's getting a bit pointless since the Myrm is a survivor of nerfs and also benefits from not having a split weapon system.

    Focusing back on the destroyer, would it be fair to say that a split weapon system would make it a better or worse ship for PVP?

    Is it better or worse for PVE?

    Does it fulfil a needed role?

    Is it heavily outclassed but other ships of the same size in PVE and PVP

    By not having a hybrid turret bonus it becomes attractive to many more players as they would no longer feel they have to train into hybrids to use this ship, unbonused turrets could be for hybrids, lasers, or projectiles. Greatly reducing the cross training SP needed to use this ship, as it will only take about 3 days to take to level 4 for most players.

    I'm not sure how anyone really benefits from that. New Gallente players would be primarily spec'd towards hybrids and would have to cross-train to get proficient in using another weapons system of the ship. Considering the other things that would be better trained they are effectively locked to hybrids. And veterans I doubt would be too likely to train Gallente for this ship alone, thus making it more likely they would have trained hybrids to take full advantage of the frigate lineup.


    well i think the point here is that you should only have too train drones guns should be optional like if you train for a drake you only need missiles and drone skills are optional to get more out of it but not a necessity.
    Thats all drone players are asking for is that really too much too ask!!! :P

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #668 - 2012-10-08 21:27:39 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    CheekyBabey wrote:
    So getting off the Myrm EFT warrior's track as it's getting a bit pointless since the Myrm is a survivor of nerfs and also benefits from not having a split weapon system.

    Focusing back on the destroyer, would it be fair to say that a split weapon system would make it a better or worse ship for PVP?

    Is it better or worse for PVE?

    Does it fulfil a needed role?

    Is it heavily outclassed but other ships of the same size in PVE and PVP

    By not having a hybrid turret bonus it becomes attractive to many more players as they would no longer feel they have to train into hybrids to use this ship, unbonused turrets could be for hybrids, lasers, or projectiles. Greatly reducing the cross training SP needed to use this ship, as it will only take about 3 days to take to level 4 for most players.

    I'm not sure how anyone really benefits from that. New Gallente players would be primarily spec'd towards hybrids and would have to cross-train to get proficient in using another weapons system of the ship. Considering the other things that would be better trained they are effectively locked to hybrids. And veterans I doubt would be too likely to train Gallente for this ship alone, thus making it more likely they would have trained hybrids to take full advantage of the frigate lineup.


    well i think the point here is that you should only have too train drones guns should be optional like if you train for a drake you only need missiles and drone skills are optional to get more out of it but not a necessity.
    Thats all drone players are asking for is that really too much too ask!!! :P

    If we were talking a tankier class not relying on pure damage output and simply killing faster than being killed I'd be inclined to agree. Either way though, if you plan on filling those turret points with guns, bonused or not, you need to train a turret type.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #669 - 2012-10-08 21:42:35 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    CheekyBabey wrote:
    So getting off the Myrm EFT warrior's track as it's getting a bit pointless since the Myrm is a survivor of nerfs and also benefits from not having a split weapon system.

    Focusing back on the destroyer, would it be fair to say that a split weapon system would make it a better or worse ship for PVP?

    Is it better or worse for PVE?

    Does it fulfil a needed role?

    Is it heavily outclassed but other ships of the same size in PVE and PVP

    By not having a hybrid turret bonus it becomes attractive to many more players as they would no longer feel they have to train into hybrids to use this ship, unbonused turrets could be for hybrids, lasers, or projectiles. Greatly reducing the cross training SP needed to use this ship, as it will only take about 3 days to take to level 4 for most players.

    I'm not sure how anyone really benefits from that. New Gallente players would be primarily spec'd towards hybrids and would have to crosstrain to get proficient in using another weapons. Considering the other things that would be better trained and the fact that the lack of a gun bonus doesn't give them a specific reason to train another type, they are effectively locked to hybrids. And veterans I doubt would be too likely to train Gallente for this ship alone, thus making it more likely they would have trained hybrids to take full advantage of the frigate lineup.

    When I started out I chose Gallente and started training there ships and weapons and got curious about other races ships and found that I liked caldari ships better, because hurry shared a common weapon type it was not that hard of a transition as I did not have to start out from scratch, this would give other players a similar option as most all races use drones and if they want to try out the Gallente ship progression they would have options until they got the hybrid weapon system trained

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #670 - 2012-10-08 22:11:47 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:

    I'm not sure how anyone really benefits from that. New Gallente players would be primarily spec'd towards hybrids and would have to crosstrain to get proficient in using another weapons. Considering the other things that would be better trained and the fact that the lack of a gun bonus doesn't give them a specific reason to train another type, they are effectively locked to hybrids. And veterans I doubt would be too likely to train Gallente for this ship alone, thus making it more likely they would have trained hybrids to take full advantage of the frigate lineup.

    When I started out I chose Gallente and started training there ships and weapons and got curious about other races ships and found that I liked caldari ships better, because hurry shared a common weapon type it was not that hard of a transition as I did not have to start out from scratch, this would give other players a similar option as most all races use drones and if they want to try out the Gallente ship progression they would have options until they got the hybrid weapon system trained

    They would still have those same options, and just not utilize the bonus to hybrids. Since it's not a damage bonus and is aimed at the terrible tracking of rails you essentially make it up in part by just not using rails. Besides, proficiency in small weapons tends to be less skill intensive than drone proficiency anyways. Either way i don't see this as being a terribly strong goto considering its competition, so the hull is more likely to be skipped altogether unless you see some major need for a drone destroyer which can field a couple of mediums in it's flight.
    AlexHalstead
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #671 - 2012-10-08 22:43:31 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Either way i don't see this as being a terribly strong goto considering its competition, so the hull is more likely to be skipped altogether unless you see some major need for a drone destroyer which can field a couple of mediums in it's flight.

    So a flight of 5 lights is inferior to a flight of mediums when swatting down Frigates in a destroyer's intended role?
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #672 - 2012-10-08 22:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
    AlexHalstead wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Either way i don't see this as being a terribly strong goto considering its competition, so the hull is more likely to be skipped altogether unless you see some major need for a drone destroyer which can field a couple of mediums in it's flight.

    So a flight of 5 lights is inferior to a flight of mediums when swatting down Frigates in a destroyer's intended role?

    No, which is why I said it is NOT a goto unless you have a special situation in which mediums are more useful. They aren't in the destroyer role so the question becomes why is the extra 10 drone band a draw over its alternative in the new Amarr destroyer for drone damage. I don't have a good answer for that at the moment.
    Garr Earthbender
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #673 - 2012-10-09 00:55:55 UTC
    I always think of FW plexes in relation to destroyer usefulness. The new gallente destroyer will be pretty cool on a warp in. Scram web something and sik your medium drones and blasters on it. DIAF.

    -Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
    I'm Down
    Macabre Votum
    Northern Coalition.
    #674 - 2012-10-09 02:31:31 UTC
    I'm not really seeing how a 7 or 8 launcher destroyer platform is not obsoleting 95% of all frig/dessy warfare in game... just saying
    Zarnak Wulf
    Task Force 641
    Empyrean Edict
    #675 - 2012-10-09 03:20:29 UTC
    I'm Down wrote:
    I'm not really seeing how a 7 or 8 launcher destroyer platform is not obsoleting 95% of all frig/dessy warfare in game... just saying



    The missile frigates are designed to have absolutely no tank. The minmatar one :

    High:
    Standard Missile Launcher II x 7
    Mid:
    Limited MWD
    Named TP
    Faint Epsilon Warp Disruptor
    Low:
    BCU II x 2
    Internal Force Field Array
    Low:
    Ancillary Current
    Overclock Processor x 2

    Note the rigs. They ALL have to be devoted to making the fit. It also only locks at 45km. That means most of the other destroyers have a variant that can hit it. Rail cat or corm. Beam Coercer. Arty Thrasher - albeit poorly. The new drone destroyers would have it in range. Fast frigates could cover that distance very quickly. The missile dessies will put out tremendous alphas - but they only go out every 6.7 seconds. That in addition to their light tanks mean that they can get swarmed.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #676 - 2012-10-09 03:49:19 UTC
    I'm Down wrote:
    I'm not really seeing how a 7 or 8 launcher destroyer platform is not obsoleting 95% of all frig/dessy warfare in game... just saying



    Might be the case, just saying... v0v

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    I'm Down
    Macabre Votum
    Northern Coalition.
    #677 - 2012-10-09 04:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
    Major Killz wrote:
    I'm Down wrote:
    I'm not really seeing how a 7 or 8 launcher destroyer platform is not obsoleting 95% of all frig/dessy warfare in game... just saying



    Might be the case, just saying... v0v


    would make more sense to nerf light's range to about 30km max before we have drake 2.0 problems and then some dev come's along an overnerfs lights in 4 more years after massive bitching.

    But then again, what's range got to do with anything... just look at the HML neft idiocy attached to the range nerf.

    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    .


    Words cannot describe ....
    Goldensaver
    Maraque Enterprises
    Just let it happen
    #678 - 2012-10-09 06:42:57 UTC
    Been playing around with the Caldari one for scramrange kiting fits, with a TD. I've used a similar one with my Corm using 75mm rails, 'course, it has 1 less low. And it works.

    Assuming my numbers haven't been... stupid:

    Highs:
    7x Rocket Launcher II
    Meds:
    Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
    Warp Scrambler II
    Stasis Webifier II
    Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
    Lows:
    2x 200mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

    Rigs:
    2x Small Ancillary Current Router I
    Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I

    DPS: 182, 147 Jav, 214.5 Rage
    Damage: 448 CN, 357 Jav, 540 Rage
    Duration: 2.48
    HP: 1187 / 2437.5 / 937.5
    Armour Resists: 50/45/25/10




    Or:

    Highs:
    7x Rocket Launcher II
    Meds:
    Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
    Warp Scrambler II
    Stasis Webifier II
    Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
    Lows:
    400mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

    Rigs:
    3x Small Ancillary Current Router I
    Requires PG implant to fit.

    Second one gets slightly lower DPS, but a larger tank.
    Kai'rae Saarkus
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #679 - 2012-10-09 08:01:42 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update!


    Love your work, but please edit the front page the way Fozzie is. That way, it's easy to see the latest "truth".
    Mike Whiite
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #680 - 2012-10-09 08:15:42 UTC
    I'm Down wrote:
    Major Killz wrote:
    I'm Down wrote:
    I'm not really seeing how a 7 or 8 launcher destroyer platform is not obsoleting 95% of all frig/dessy warfare in game... just saying



    Might be the case, just saying... v0v


    would make more sense to nerf light's range to about 30km max before we have drake 2.0 problems and then some dev come's along an overnerfs lights in 4 more years after massive bitching.


    ..



    Then look at the ship, don't nerf lights because we might have a ship that will be op.

    Though with the new Caldari slot lay out I'd be worrying about Rocket Destroyers.