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[Winter] New destroyers

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CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#521 - 2012-10-03 22:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CaptainFalcon07
Its a bit better, but I still believe an increase drone damage bonus is simply far better.

a 15-20% drone damage bonus will make the drone destroyers on par with the missile destroyers.

The extra drone bandwidth is somewhat pointless, medium drones work poorly against frigates and destroyers will die the second anything bigger than a frigate decide to lock them.

A 20% drone damage bonus will really make the drone destroyers up to par. Before you say it would be OP, drones have many weaknesses to compensate for this high bonus: They have travel time, destroyable, and once all your drones are gone, well game over. These destroyers will only be using light drones, not mediums nor heavies, so their dps will not be ridiculous.

When using lights warriors are really the only light drones work using:

with a 20% bonus per level: 80 dps -> 160 dps. With 2 improved tech 2 drone damage mods: 236 dps. Then add in 5 light neutron blasters with caldari navy antimatter: 190 dps

Total dps: 190 + 236 = 426 dps - Upclose dps.

As you can see it still does less dps than the catalyst but it has an advantage in ability to reach with drones.

***A 20% drone damage bonus is what the drone destroyers need to be made decent.***
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#522 - 2012-10-03 23:13:06 UTC
Having most of your damage wrapped up in drones on the frigate/destroyer level is a mistake and doesn't and hasn't worked. It works on cruisers and above, but not with frigates and destroyers. Even if the Gallente destroyer gained a drone damage bonus. The missile destroyers will clean its clock. You know! Unless, ECM drones lucky jam, but you lose damage to do so.

I can go into how these missile destroyers will school the other destroyers, but I rather just wait untill these proposed destroyers get released and just do my talking ingame by esploding sh!t. However, I've already completely wrote off the Amarr destroyer @tleast compared to the other destroyers in the list and now I've written off the Gallente destroyer.

With that all said.

The Amarr destroyer CAN work against close range destroyers and frigates. Not so much against those that can kite or don't use capacitor extensive weapon system, though.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#523 - 2012-10-03 23:16:32 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Having most of your damage wrapped up in drones on the frigate/destroyer level is a mistake and doesn't and hasn't worked. It works on cruisers and above, but not with frigates and destroyers. Even if the Gallente destroyer gained a drone damage bonus. The missile destroyers will clean its clock. You know! Unless, ECM drones lucky jam, but you lose damage to do so.

I can go into how these missile destroyers will school the other destroyers, but I rather just wait untill these proposed destroyers get released and just do my talking ingame by esploding sh!t. However, I've already completely wrote off the Amarr destroyer @tleast compared to the other destroyers in the list and now I've written off the Gallente destroyer.

With that all said.

The Amarr destroyer CAN work against close range destroyers and frigates. Not so much against those that can kite or don't use capacitor extensive weapon system, though.


Yep the problem is the extremely fragile nature of drones until they fix them they are going to struggle to be effective

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#524 - 2012-10-03 23:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Sans e-war a future beam Coercer will quickly show the Caldar missile destroyer the door. Just sayin'.

High:
Medium Beam II x 8
Mid:
MWD
SB II
Low:
HS II x 2
TE II
Rigs:
Ancillary Current
Overclock processor
Energy Locus Coordinator
CheekyBabey
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2012-10-04 00:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CheekyBabey
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

I don't get how you fail to see the amarr one is a mini-curse and the gallente one is a rail boat that can kite like a boss with amazing tracking on a long range weapon. That's a big enough difference for me.


*sarcasm* Yes because the drone bonuses make both of those things very effective. *sarcasm*

I know very well what they are trying to achieve with these 2 ships but frankly they could make them interesting and fulfill a role that isn't already being done by some T1 and T2 frigate but just with added drones.

I'm very tired of seeing good drone boats being so bland that they dont get used as much as they could of been if they had a more specialised role, which is what I suggested with:

Amarr - Drone HP +20% per level Drone Ewar effects +5% per level, which turns it into a new unique ship for drone ewar

Gall - Drone DPS +20% (less guns) Drone HP or Speed +5% per level, which makes it a light drone ship with some teeth.


Harvey James wrote:

I don't think it should have a recon bonus on it really its clearly out of place give it a drone tracking bonus instead or extra drone HP or even a resist bonus on the ship itself...


I agree, I think that recycling old bonuses because they might work is bad practice when they should be giving us something new, we have 2/4 which is good but when it comes to drone boats we don't just want it to be so generalized we want a purpose to use it.

CaptainFalcon07 wrote:

with a 20% bonus per level: 80 dps -> 160 dps. With 2 improved tech 2 drone damage mods: 236 dps. Then add in 5 light neutron blasters with caldari navy antimatter: 190 dps


***A 20% drone damage bonus is what the drone destroyers need to be made decent.***


Well I'm not in favour of guns but please it needs to be about the drone damage however 236 dps is a decent amount for a destroyer to deal out.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#526 - 2012-10-04 00:08:31 UTC
Wow, this is christmas ! And people still complain about the gallente destroyer ? Come on, if only with drone bonuses, it will only be a fat tristan. It NEED turrets to be better than the tristan. And now with more bandwidth, it's even better against larger targets !

I don't know how one can think of the gallente destroyer to be worse than before : same number of equivalent turrets, hob will be as fast as normal warriors (which is huge, if there is no problem of AI), and a tracking bonus for the turrets instead of range mean damage application with rails.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#527 - 2012-10-04 00:15:47 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Wow, this is christmas ! And people still complain about the gallente destroyer ? Come on, if only with drone bonuses, it will only be a fat tristan. It NEED turrets to be better than the tristan. And now with more bandwidth, it's even better against larger targets !

I don't know how one can think of the gallente destroyer to be worse than before : same number of equivalent turrets, hob will be as fast as normal warriors (which is huge, if there is no problem of AI), and a tracking bonus for the turrets instead of range mean damage application with rails.

Larger targets? Lol, last time I checked destroyers go down in a ball of fire against anything larger than a destroyer. And it does not NEED turrets to be better, a 20% drone damage increase and HP increase would be suitable to contend with other destroyers and frigates. This increase plus the mwd bonus would make them effective vs kiters as well. It can easily go down to 4 unbonused turrets and be just fine still.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
CheekyBabey
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2012-10-04 00:32:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Wow, this is christmas ! And people still complain about the gallente destroyer ? Come on, if only with drone bonuses, it will only be a fat tristan. It NEED turrets to be better than the tristan. And now with more bandwidth, it's even better against larger targets !

I don't know how one can think of the gallente destroyer to be worse than before : same number of equivalent turrets, hob will be as fast as normal warriors (which is huge, if there is no problem of AI), and a tracking bonus for the turrets instead of range mean damage application with rails.


Well when you've played this game for over 7 years and one of the 4 races gets shafted every patch or overly pre nerfed or just given a general un specific role... then you can complain.

Nearly all the drone boats have been overly nerfed to the point they are not useful to use anymore.

Vexor & Ishtar , stil remain mainly untouched.

Myrm - Got hit so hard with the nerf bat that people resort to not using gall turrets on it for most fits.

Eos - Got hit hard by the drone nerf which was right then was made pointless by the Proteus as a ganglink ship.

Moros - Was great for drones, got nerfed then drones were removed and was terrible, then drone removed now it's a decent ship.

Ishkur - hit by drone nerf but just about surived on usability

Domi - used to be a 15 drone death boat, reduced to 5, still too generic to be used outside of PVE but not as useful as other PVE ships which are much more cost effective.

-

Amarr so far has done it right Arbitrator, Curse, and Pilgrim all great ships their drones works in perfect combo with their Ewar bonuses and you know what they have barely any turrets/launchers.

.

tl:dr these drone ships are boring generic will be outshone by the other 2, just like the thrasher has been dominating the current destroyer's generation.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#529 - 2012-10-04 02:59:44 UTC
I still say to get away from the damage specific bonuses they should take the caldari destroyer and make it a high alpha sniper style boat, and make the minmatar a close range brawler with a RoF bonus and slightly higher dps, plus it has the mwd bonus..

This makes them way different ships without making them specific damage bonuses.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#530 - 2012-10-04 03:39:50 UTC
The kinetic and explosive damage bonuses on the Caldari and Minmatar destroyers cause me to froth and convulse in fury and disgust.

Slightly offset by the fact that you can fit the Caldari one with rockets and maybe now pull off some semblance of defense, which might give it more options in terms of just how it can engage people. If a ship is slammed into only being able to pursue one role, people are going to learn how to counter it, really fast, and then it won't be usable anymore.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#531 - 2012-10-04 04:03:30 UTC
The Caldari destroyer will have more choices when TE and TC are added to the mix.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#532 - 2012-10-04 04:43:46 UTC
Ark Anhammar wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Gallente:
  • Drone bandwidth increased to 35m3
  • Drone bay increased to 60m3
  • Turret number increased from 4 to 5
  • 5% hybrid turret damage bonus per level changed for 10% hybrid turret tracking bonus per level
  • Role bonus changed from 50% hybrid turret optimal range to 25% MWD speed to drones
    • It is nice to see this becoming more about drone damage projection, but the split weapon system still seems somewhat out of place for the design intent of this new Dessie.

    It is fail. Medium drones can't project damage onto small ships. The ship is slow and won't be able to catch any frigs with webs. Par for the course. Whatever. Come on CCP. Step it up and give the Gallente dessie more damage from small drones.
    Bloodpetal
    Tir Capital Management Group
    #533 - 2012-10-04 05:49:37 UTC
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    What on EARTH is the 35 drone bandwith for? having two medium drones..? why on earth would you want that?

    Why not just increase the damage bonus instead of giving it the possibility of using drones that are bad against virtually all of its viable targets.......


    I don't get the 35m3 bonus either.

    So 2 mediums and 3 lights?

    Why?

    /me scratch head

    Where I am.
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #534 - 2012-10-04 06:44:56 UTC
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    The Caldari destroyer will have more choices when TE and TC are added to the mix.


    It will be a while before that happens.
    They've been delayed again which is noted on the missile/hurricane thread
    Tess La'Coil
    Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
    #535 - 2012-10-04 07:46:26 UTC
    Bloodpetal wrote:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    What on EARTH is the 35 drone bandwith for? having two medium drones..? why on earth would you want that?

    Why not just increase the damage bonus instead of giving it the possibility of using drones that are bad against virtually all of its viable targets.......


    I don't get the 35m3 bonus either.

    So 2 mediums and 3 lights?

    Why?

    /me scratch head


    Perhaps a +2 drone control incoming after all? :P
    Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
    Hidden Snake
    Inglorious-Basterds
    #536 - 2012-10-04 08:23:09 UTC
    t1 baby curse ..... hmmm .... guys wouldnt it be wiser to move these things into t2 range and skill requirements?

    Amar dessie is massive support ship .... reducing the sentinel to dust .....
    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #537 - 2012-10-04 09:16:37 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    how is 35m3 helpful? mediums against frigs are a waste of time they wont track them why odd numbers doesn't make sense just improve the drone hp/dmg bonus instead do it across the board would be useful



    Couldn't agree more with this statement. The issue with Amarr vs Gallente drone destroyers was simply the fact that the amarr destroyer fielded the same number, size and damage as the Gallente one and it had a larger drone bay.

    Also 35M/Bit is not very useful. As stated medium drones can't track for toffee. This should either be a 50M/Bit with a 10% drone tracking and HP bonus instead of damage or 25M/Bit with a 15% damage and HP bonus. This way the Gallente destroyer will have better drone performance than the Amarr drone destroyer.

    The 25% MWD drone bonus is also ideal for the role as blanket speed bonus to the drones causes tracking issues for the drones but just MWD speed works as the drones switch their MWD's off once on target.

    So, in short: Choose either a better damage bonus for the 25M/Bit version (15% per level) or give the ship a 50M/Bit bandwidth and a drone tracking bonus.
    Forstbyte
    Spark In The Dark
    #538 - 2012-10-04 09:46:49 UTC
    All nice ships with exception of the gallente one.
    Split weapons and not best at this racial speciality, the drones.

    Minm bonus: Turret DPS + Speed
    Amm bonus: Drone DPS + Ewar
    Cal bonus: 2x Missile DPS
    Gall bonus: Drone DPS + Turrent DPS

    Dps in the same weapons like the caldari one are usefull.
    Dps and candy (ewar, speed) are usefull to you can focus on dps and still have free candy from the other bonus.

    But with gallente you have 2 different kinds of dps bonus, with both need of low slots to boost that even more. You will have to choose between the two and leave the other less effective.
    Kasel Duval
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #539 - 2012-10-04 11:30:18 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    Harvey James wrote:
    how is 35m3 helpful? mediums against frigs are a waste of time they wont track them why odd numbers doesn't make sense just improve the drone hp/dmg bonus instead do it across the board would be useful



    Couldn't agree more with this statement. The issue with Amarr vs Gallente drone destroyers was simply the fact that the amarr destroyer fielded the same number, size and damage as the Gallente one and it had a larger drone bay.

    Also 35M/Bit is not very useful. As stated medium drones can't track for toffee. This should either be a 50M/Bit with a 10% drone tracking and HP bonus instead of damage or 25M/Bit with a 15% damage and HP bonus. This way the Gallente destroyer will have better drone performance than the Amarr drone destroyer.

    The 25% MWD drone bonus is also ideal for the role as blanket speed bonus to the drones causes tracking issues for the drones but just MWD speed works as the drones switch their MWD's off once on target.

    So, in short: Choose either a better damage bonus for the 25M/Bit version (15% per level) or give the ship a 50M/Bit bandwidth and a drone tracking bonus.


    How about make a gallente ships-only bonus with drones?
    Like 5%/level to all stas (hp, resists, speed, range) and maybe exstend it to some/all drone role stats (like shield/armor/cap drain,electronic warfare,...)
    A bonus like this would separate gallente high knowedge of drones from amarr wich use them as a secondary weapon
    Acac Sunflyier
    The Ascended Academy
    #540 - 2012-10-04 12:08:52 UTC
    So isn't this new destroyer for Gallente designed with rails in mind? It isn't a blaster boat like the catalyst?