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[Winter] New destroyers

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#501 - 2012-10-03 19:56:34 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • What's the point of the Catalyst next to the new Gallente hull?
    • We're planning some changes for it - keep an eye for them in the next days on this thread.


    I think the real question is "what point is using the cormorant?" when:

    1. The other caldari boat has better range, and damage, with light missiles, people will just use that instead of the corm
    2. The catalyst has better damage in every other way with blasters, so if they want blasters they will use a catalyst
    3. The gallente boat will have good tracking and range just like the cormorant, making the cormorant less favourable once again.

    So we have the caldari missile destroyer having the same (if not more) range than the corm with similar damage, the catalyst having more damage completely with a blaster fit, and the gallente drone boat having similar railgun tracking to the cormorant while fielding drones to make up the turret difference as well. The corm will not be "best" at anything here, so I doubt it will see much use. It needs something else to be useful, perhaps like switching the 8th high slot on it for a 4th midslot (can't fit a gun on there anyways), making it have more midslots than the other rail/hybrid boats and thus bringing something different to the table.

    I really think it should be looked at.


    The future Corm will be 8-3-2 with 7 turret slots and one launcher. It will have more PG and a little less CPU. I flew one on Duality. With damage implants I could get 356 DPS out to 23km. I could also send 167 DPS to 83km. That is immediate damage. If you look at the Caldari missile destroyer it is a Herculean task to fit light missiles AND an MSE on it. You will be looking at what - 210 - 230 DPS at 60km? The corm can match that. Even without damage implants you can get 320 and 150 DPS at the above ranges. The new corm is fine.
    Zarnak Wulf
    Task Force 641
    Empyrean Edict
    #502 - 2012-10-03 20:03:36 UTC
    New Gallente Destroyer:

    High:
    Light Ions II x 5
    Nuet or Nos(latter might need CPU help)
    Mid:
    MWD
    Named Scrambler
    Named Web
    Low:
    Internal Force Field Array
    DDA II
    Adaptive Nano Plate II
    Rigs:
    Hybrid Burst
    Hybrid Collision

    Drones:
    Valkerie II x 2
    Warrior II x 3

    400 DPS with Null. Holy Trinity of Tackle. More tank then the damn Cat usually gets. This is a good destroyer. Not everyone will be happy with it but after all the years of 'wouldn't it be cool if' discussions related to destroyers - that's normal.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #503 - 2012-10-03 20:06:02 UTC
    Well, you don't want drones orbiting to begin with unless thier target is outside of a drones optimal. The Drones should be keeping range and not orbiting, but if they do that they're easier to track by the ship thier engaging LOL. Light drones have no issues tracking and catching thier targets now and are VERY FAST. That speed increase was a waste imo. However, heavy drones have issues tracking cruisers and below. Which they're suppose too.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Crazy KSK
    Tsunami Cartel
    #504 - 2012-10-03 20:15:03 UTC
    Quote:

    • AMARR DESTROYER:

    a nobb would probably be confused and skill wrongly and end up being excluded from most of the amarr lineup
    its bad to give noobs such a complex ship so early on and make them train 3 weapon systems and ewar
    away with the mini arbie abomination! ewar bonuses have nothing to do on a destroyer anyway
    it lies in the name, destroyer says nothing about neuts

    mini omen with good tank high damage but low capacitor with fast recharge
    makeing the Coercer the long range boat and this one short range
    and not completely obsoleting the sentinel

    Ship bonuses:
    +5% bonus to armor resistance per level.
    +5% bonus to Small Energy Turret rate of fire per level
    Role bonus:
    +50% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level
    Slot layout: 7 H(+1), 2 M, 4 L, 7(+4) turrets
    Fittings: 80(+25) PWG, 160(+10) CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 750 / 950 / 850
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 550(-50) / 250s(-120) / 2.2s(+0,58)
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 245+(10) / 2.75 / 1700000 / 4.71s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0(-25 /75)
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(-9) / 525 / 6
    Sensor strength: 10 radar
    Signature radius: 66
    Cargo capacity: 300


    • CALDARI DESTROYER:


    allright CCP Ytterbium won me over this looks a lot better now nothing I would change here

    Ship bonuses:
    +5% to rocket and light missile kinetic damage per level
    +10% to rocket and light missile explosion velocity per level
    Role bonus:
    +50% to rocket and light missile velocity
    Slot layout: 7 H, 4 M, 2 L, 7 launchers
    Fittings: 45 PWG, 210 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 950 / 750 / 750
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 500 / 320s / 1.56s
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250 / 2.5 / 1900000 / 4.89s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 475 / 7
    Sensor strength: 12 gravimetric
    Signature radius: 69
    Cargo capacity: 450



    • GALLENTE DESTROYER:

    same as with the amarr one to a lesser degree since there are a lot more drone boats in the gallente lineup
    skilling full-on drones at the start will not hurt a new player since there is a drone cruiser and a drone hac and a drone BC
    and also a drone BS to look out for

    full drone boat with enough cpu and slots to even fit drone upgrade modules
    an lots of flexibility due to 50 bandwith
    and with the bonuses to tracking even a flight of valks will be good enough to hit frigates
    before you scream op think about the time it takes a frigate to kill those 5 med drones: not long at all since they are easier to hit


    Ship bonuses:
    +10% to drone damage and HP per level
    +10% to drone speed per level
    Role bonus:
    +50% small done tracking per level
    Slot layout: 5 H(-1), 4 M(+1), 3 L, 5(+1) turrets
    Fittings: 55 PWG, 200 CPU(+50)
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 800 / 850 / 950
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 550 / 350s / 1.57s
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240 / 2.45 / 1800000 / 4.46s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42km / 500 / 7
    Sensor strength: 11 magnetometric
    Signature radius: 72
    Cargo capacity: 350


    • MINMATAR DESTROYER:


    low sig dessie without being forced to fit a mwd to get its bonus
    mwd bonus for a brawling ship that only uses its mwd to get in range is a waste anyway


    Ship bonuses:
    +5% to rocket and light missile explosion damage per level
    -5% signature radius per level
    Role bonus:
    +50% to rocket and light missile velocity
    Slot layout: 7 H, 3 M, 3 L, 7 launchers
    Fittings: 48 PWG, 200 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 850 / 800 / 800
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 450 / 290s / 1.55s
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 255 / 2.89 / 1600000 / 4.64s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 550 / 6
    Sensor strength: 9 ladar
    Signature radius:60
    Cargo capacity: 400


    these changes would give of them a distinct roll leaves full choice of fitting, make no other ships obsolete and make them different enough from the other destroyers
    the general flavor being more survivability but slower in general
    and also adding a opposite in therms of intended roll in case of the amarr one long / short range
    for gallente more survivability means to be able to kill quicker and better

    with those stats it would then look like this
    amarr would have a short range tanky brawler with good tracking and a long range fast sniper
    caldari would have a long range well tanked missile bombardment ship and a long to medium range fast rail boat
    gallente would have a long range drone hive ship and a short range blaster brawler
    minmatar would have a short range low sig rocket brawler and a long range arty sniper

    Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
    Scatim Helicon
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #505 - 2012-10-03 20:18:26 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • What's the point of the Catalyst next to the new Gallente hull?
    • We're planning some changes for it - keep an eye for them in the next days on this thread.

    50% falloff role bonus for the Catalyst and the Thrasher. You know you want to.

    Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
    Vladimir Norkoff
    Income Redistribution Service
    #506 - 2012-10-03 20:30:03 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Why don't you just do what I say and crank up the drone damage bonus to 15% per level or something while keeping the bandwidth at 25? Mediums are even more seriously appalling at applying damage than lights.

    I don't understand how you can think drones actually hit moving targets at all if you're making an effort to test these ships. A speed bonus might help I guess, but having the option to use mediums won't.
    You do realize that you are allowed to attack things other than frigs while in a dessie, right? No seriously, you can. And last I checked, medium drones do fairly well against cruiser targets and larger.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #507 - 2012-10-03 20:31:55 UTC
    Just did some calculations and found that a Hobgonblin with its mwd on will travel about 32km/s and a warrior will travel about 44km/s. There is very frw destroyer setups that will be able to take advantage of the ridiculous amount of speed the drones will get.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #508 - 2012-10-03 20:34:13 UTC
    Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Why don't you just do what I say and crank up the drone damage bonus to 15% per level or something while keeping the bandwidth at 25? Mediums are even more seriously appalling at applying damage than lights.

    I don't understand how you can think drones actually hit moving targets at all if you're making an effort to test these ships. A speed bonus might help I guess, but having the option to use mediums won't.
    You do realize that you are allowed to attack things other than frigs while in a dessie, right? No seriously, you can. And last I checked, medium drones do fairly well against cruiser targets and larger.

    Yeah medium drones do quite well vs cruisers and up, unfortunately destroyers do fair as well against them. And since these drones are on a destroyer that makes them less useful.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Khaim Khal
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #509 - 2012-10-03 20:35:02 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


      Amarr:
    • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
    • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones


    I actually prefer making the cap recharge an explicit role bonus, rather than hiding it in the base stats.

    The actual ship stats end up the same (if you did the math right), but a role bonus makes it very clear that "this ship has a better cap recharge rate". Newer players in particular are unlikely to notice that this hull has a shorter recharge time than its class/race would otherwise indicate. It takes time to dig into the stats of every ship enough to notice details like this, and if you wait around for players to gain that much experience, you're not going to grow the player base much.

    I love how detailed and complex the game is, but one of my biggest frustrations with EVE how hard it is to find information. For example, point me to an official document that says how ECM falloff works. Or how fast ships accelerate in warp. For that matter, the official wiki pages are roughly 6 months out of date. Role bonus vs built-in stats is a small thing, but every bit helps.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #510 - 2012-10-03 20:39:58 UTC
    Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Why don't you just do what I say and crank up the drone damage bonus to 15% per level or something while keeping the bandwidth at 25? Mediums are even more seriously appalling at applying damage than lights.

    I don't understand how you can think drones actually hit moving targets at all if you're making an effort to test these ships. A speed bonus might help I guess, but having the option to use mediums won't.
    You do realize that you are allowed to attack things other than frigs while in a dessie, right? No seriously, you can. And last I checked, medium drones do fairly well against cruiser targets and larger.



    Wow you're bad. The entire point of destroyers is to wreck frigates. Having a destroyer that sucks vs frigates is really a very dumb concept, because they get done in seconds by cruisers and BCs.
    Crazy KSK
    Tsunami Cartel
    #511 - 2012-10-03 20:40:34 UTC
    Khaim Khal wrote:

    Newer players in particular are unlikely to notice that this hull has a shorter recharge time than its class/race would otherwise indicate. It takes time to dig into the stats of every ship enough to notice details like this, and if you wait around for players to gain that much experience, you're not going to grow the player base much.


    just gotta mention good cap recharge in the ship description and even new players will get it

    Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
    Alticus C Bear
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #512 - 2012-10-03 20:41:53 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:

    if you are within web and scram range you are so close the MWD bonus is wasted. Is will be better to just up the drone damage and hp by an additional 5%, or as im down stated increase the max control by +2


    Flexibility. Yes the MWD bonus is not a useful up close but the heavier Drones are useful up close while the drone bay still gives the option to throw out a flight of lights to chase kiters. Don't get me wrong I would not turn down 15% drone damage bonus.


    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Just did some calculations and found that a Hobgonblin with its mwd on will travel about 32km/s and a warrior will travel about 44km/s. There is very frw destroyer setups that will be able to take advantage of the ridiculous amount of speed the drones will get.


    Did you treat it as a per level bonus? Just add a drone navi comp I, 25% speed bonus Hob gob travels around 5250m/s
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #513 - 2012-10-03 20:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
    Alticus C Bear wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:

    if you are within web and scram range you are so close the MWD bonus is wasted. Is will be better to just up the drone damage and hp by an additional 5%, or as im down stated increase the max control by +2


    Flexibility. Yes the MWD bonus is not a useful up close but the heavier Drones are useful up close while the drone bay still gives the option to throw out a flight of lights to chase kiters. Don't get me wrong I would not turn down 15% drone damage bonus.


    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Just did some calculations and found that a Hobgonblin with its mwd on will travel about 32km/s and a warrior will travel about 44km/s. There is very frw destroyer setups that will be able to take advantage of the ridiculous amount of speed the drones will get.


    Did you treat it as a per level bonus? Just add a drone navi comp I, 25% speed bonus Hob gob travels around 5250m/s

    Edit: miss calculated

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #514 - 2012-10-03 21:16:45 UTC
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Why having a fixed damage bonus on the Caldari and Minmatar hulls, didn't you want to move away from this philosophy?
    • Yes we definitely do, when it makes sense. For instance, we kept a kinetic damage bonus on the Condor, while the Kestrel has a generic one. In this particular case however, having general damage bonuses on these two hulls would bring them too close of each other.

  • Don't you think the Caldari hull is going to have an insane alpha with light missiles, or just too good in general?
    • The layout change will help mitigate that somewhat. If it still too much of an issue we can always revert the light missile damage change and increase the ROF on light and rapid light missile launchers instead.


    I actually kinda had a thought behind this.

    Design the Caldari to be high alpha long range, but slower.

    So
    Caldari
    5% damage buff to rockets and lights
    Role: 50% missile velocity buff
    reduce velocity

    Minmatar
    10% bonus to rocket and light RoF
    Role: 5-10% bonus to missile velocity
    increase velocity


    Now, these are just random numbers as a suggestion.

    Basically, what I'm going with here is that the Caldari boat would be meant for greater range, higher alpha, but slower speed.

    While the minmatar would be the brawler with higher RoF, higher velocity, more EHP, but less range.

    This would be a way to set each ship apart from each other without having to give them specific damage buffs in order to do so.

    Cause honestly, expecially with the drop of a high from the Caldari, they're still way too similar, only using different damage types.

    So, one a brawler, one a high alpha sniper.


    Well, i got a like on this, but no comments
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #515 - 2012-10-03 21:25:21 UTC
    What on EARTH is the 35 drone bandwith for? having two medium drones..? why on earth would you want that?

    Why not just increase the damage bonus instead of giving it the possibility of using drones that are bad against virtually all of its viable targets.......

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #516 - 2012-10-03 21:30:40 UTC
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    What on EARTH is the 35 drone bandwith for? having two medium drones..? why on earth would you want that?

    Why not just increase the damage bonus instead of giving it the possibility of using drones that are bad against virtually all of its viable targets.......


    I have to agree. Odd drone bandwidth doesn't make much sense on sub capital ships...
    Now, if you gave it a role bonus allowing it to field 2 more drones, that would make sense.
    However, we got away from ships that field more than 5 drones a long time ago.
    Wish they would come back though.
    Takeshi Yamato
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #517 - 2012-10-03 21:42:08 UTC
    The Gallente destroyer looks fine to me now.

    The Amarr destroyer seems a bit unfocused still. It cannot hope to control range as armor tanker with 2 mids, so it needs a beefy tank to buy enough time for the neutralizers to work. I think a +5% armor resist bonus per level and the role bonus being +100% neutralizer range would work better.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #518 - 2012-10-03 21:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
    Gallente destroyer:

    Well, silly changes like this drone bandwidth thing and velocity increase, happens when you have terrible pilots making suggestions. Giving thier input on things they no next to nothing about. It's the same thing that happen with the autocannon and tracking enhancer boost. Terribubble pilots complaining because they don't understand how to use there ships effectively. Most of the dudes commenting should, just let thier FC post for them. @tleast there would be less r3tarded suggestions.


    Also, all drones work as intended. They hit what they're suppose too. Light drones hit frigates, medium drones hit cruisers and heavy drones hit battleships. What players are suggesting is that CCP make a large pulse laser (heavy drone) track and hit a frigate.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #519 - 2012-10-03 21:50:03 UTC
    Major Killz wrote:
    Gallente destroyer:

    Well, silly changes like this drone bandwidth thing and velocity increase, happens when you have terrible pilots making suggestions. Giving thier input on things they no next to nothing about. They should let thier FC come in this thread and comment for them. @tleast there would be less r3tarded suggestions.


    Also, all drones work as intended. They hit what they're suppose too. Light drones hit frigates, medium drones hit cruisers and heavy drones hit battleships. What players are suggesting is that CCP make a large pulse laser (heavy drone) track and hit a frigate.

    No what most are saying is that medium drones on a destroyer are stupid as destroyers are supposed to fight frigates, and a tracking increase for the drones would get them apply there damage better against fast moving frigates.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Sparkus Volundar
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #520 - 2012-10-03 22:40:16 UTC
    Dear CCP Ytterbium,

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    An explosive missile damage bonuses seems rather unfortunate for Minmatar at a time when [ancillary] shield boosting is effective and popular.

    Personally, I'm not sure that having a plain damage bonus for both Mini and Caldari would be so unusual. That sort of thing is pretty common in Eve: Hybrid damage bonus shared with Gallente and Caldari differentiated by range/tracking for example. Then it's the same with the drone bonus on the new Gallente and Amarr Destroyers differentiating by second bonus. Plus with turrets, many have plain damage bonuses rather than damage type/ammo type-specific bonuses.

    It's hard to think of a reason for racial-specific damage bonuses to missiles or ammo seeing as they are off the shelf and used by all races. Though there could easily be one I don't know of. Race-specific effects on tracking or explosion radius could make a bit more sence perhaps if was said ships are tuned to work better with particular missiles/ammo.

    If the Caldari have a 'tracking' bonus to missiles and the Mini don't, that seems like quite a big difference already without bringing in racial damage bonuses. Plus there's the option to tweak the number of launcher slots and vary with launcher RoF vs. Missile damage.

    Thanks for listening.

    Regards,
    Sparks

    .