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[Winter] New destroyers

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Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#301 - 2012-09-29 18:34:01 UTC
MIrple wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, this puts the new Caldari Missile destroyer in the 200 - 210 DPS at 60+ km range

Does this not negate everything you have already said about HML's, range and damage projection considering this is following the current trends and not the new path you guys were trying to lay down?


Think these ships are meant to operate with precisions what would the range be with this type of ammo fitted?


yes, because using a hawk getting 200 dps with light missiles is so game breaking right now What?...a destroyer with less tank and less speed and more sig radius will make it even more game breaking!

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#302 - 2012-09-29 18:36:30 UTC
The electronic attack ships are horribly broken. I love the belief that the sentinel's role will be infringed upon. I haven't seen one of those in months and I'm in FW, land of frigs and destroyers.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#303 - 2012-09-29 18:37:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



  • MINMATAR DESTROYER:


    • Ship bonuses:
    +5% to rocket and light missile explosion damage per level


    is this explosion velocity bonus or a bonus to all damage types? <_<

    TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Divine Damnation
    #304 - 2012-09-29 18:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
    Denuo Secus wrote:
    - Frigates and assault frigs are very strong now - especially when ASB fitted. It's good they have a hard counter.


    I don't think you really understand how hard of a counter we are talking about here. Let's compare it to some ships that are commonly considered "frigate munchers" to such a degree that it's widely considered to be 100% impossible for a frigate to win the fight.

    If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. Comparing it to today's 280mm Arty Thrasher, we see that it has the same volley, similar DPS, significantly better general damage application, no tracking problems, and 5x the range.

    I mean, I'm all for having ships that are 'strong' against another ship class. But this isn't an example of that.

    -Liang

    Ed: Honestly, this feels like CCP throwing the Caldari a bone over the HML nerf. "Look, we don't hate Caldari! You guys have the only Destroyer worth flying anymore!"

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
    Zyella Stormborn
    Green Seekers
    #305 - 2012-09-29 18:51:13 UTC
    Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
    Petrus Blackshell wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Alara IonStorm wrote:
    I think you should lock the Amarr and Gallente drone Bonus to their racial Dmg Types.

    Why?

    Because the uproar might actually make you fix Amarr Drones. Lol


    Play nice now P Yes yes, we know they need to be looked, poor things.

    Holy crap, I think this is the first acknowledgement by a dev that Amarr drones are subpar. I have a spreadsheet somewhere analyzing just why they're subpar, but I'd think it's obvious.

    The destroyers look great, and the Minmatar one is REALLY SCARY. Keep being awesome!


    the reason they are subpar is because drone ships should not be good at every damage type...just like most missile ships get locked into kinetic.

    Most missile ships are starting to lose their kinetic bonus and getting a ROF bonus instead, opening up their damage types... just like projectiles.

    There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
    Yuri Intaki
    Nasranite Watch
    #306 - 2012-09-29 18:58:07 UTC
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application.


    You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills.
    Cpt Gobla
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #307 - 2012-09-29 19:03:08 UTC
    I've seen it mentioned several times that Destroyer by definition have to be anti-Frigate vessels and I do have to ask, why?

    I mean I'm aware that was the original naval definition of such a vessel, but we're flying now, not sailing. Not to mention that most of EvE's ship classes don't fully match their naval counterparts, only the tier 3 BCs are real battlecruisers in the naval sense. The others would likely be classed as armoured cruisers.

    If both Destroyers have exactly the same role, fragile frigate killers, then chances are pretty damn high that of each race one hull will be considered superior and the other will hardly ever be used. They both fill the same role and as such will be measured by the same qualities.

    The prime consideration when designing these ships and their role should be the EvE universe, not irrelevant definitions of an entirely different form of warfare.
    Dread Pirate Pete
    Doomheim
    #308 - 2012-09-29 19:09:10 UTC
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    The electronic attack ships are horribly broken. I love the belief that the sentinel's role will be infringed upon. I haven't seen one of those in months and I'm in FW, land of frigs and destroyers.



    The problem is that Sentinels are terribad at tanking plexes, nobody likes losing T2 ships to rats, I expect to see a lot more of them after the winter expansions change to fw rats. I will certainly give one a thwirl, especially with the upsurge of cap dependant hybrid and laser frigs after the latesr rebalances.
    Zarnak Wulf
    Task Force 641
    Empyrean Edict
    #309 - 2012-09-29 19:12:19 UTC
    If you make Destroyers too fast, too tanky, or give them too much utility they can replace frigates. It's as simple a that.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #310 - 2012-09-29 19:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    Denuo Secus wrote:
    - Frigates and assault frigs are very strong now - especially when ASB fitted. It's good they have a hard counter.


    I don't think you really understand how hard of a counter we are talking about here. Let's compare it to some ships that are commonly considered "frigate munchers" to such a degree that it's widely considered to be 100% impossible for a frigate to win the fight.

    If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. Comparing it to today's 280mm Arty Thrasher, we see that it has the same volley, similar DPS, significantly better general damage application, no tracking problems, and 5x the range.

    I mean, I'm all for having ships that are 'strong' against another ship class. But this isn't an example of that.

    -Liang

    Ed: Honestly, this feels like CCP throwing the Caldari a bone over the HML nerf. "Look, we don't hate Caldari! You guys have the only Destroyer worth flying anymore!"



    aml right? so that like comparing duel 150s rails? those have crap dps too right? but 8 or 7 would do more then 8 lml or 150's...

    like whats the dps ona drake with 7 aml? or a brutix with 7 duel 150's?

    though i am sure a caracal would pwn the cal dessie... due to it being a glass launcher...

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #311 - 2012-09-29 19:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
    Heard CCP was introducing new and "overpowered" destroyer. Apparently this Caldari destroyer was so crazy and sh!t. I'm not to sure about that. However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v

    Thing looks like a mix of the Ishkur/Harpy's range bonus plus a random damage bonus to 2 weapon systems (Ecm drones, kite or go b@lls deep). I'm p sure I could kite the Caldari untill it esplodes... I mean it looks like it will do 250dps @ 20k and more. Which is alot more than my Harpy can do now and my harpy sh!ts on dudes faces all day...

    Pure guerilla.


    I'm not to sure about that Amarr destroyer, though. Seems to have that annoying issue. You know! Too much of its damage in drones and not enough else where. I'm not sure it would survive a battol with the new Caldari or Minmatar destroyer. Much less an Art-Thrasher... We'll see!

    Edit: also that dude that was on about the amarr destroyer and it only having the neut range bonus is correct. I've flown the sentinel solo with multiple characters and have engaged it a few times in my long time in this game. The only time I had a hard time with that ship is when it had a td and I was often in a ship with a weapon system that uses no cap. Ofc they try to kite but all drones esplode and we just look @ each other for the most part = / untill I get enough cap to activate a heated mwd cycle or I esplode them right off that bat. Without the td I have never had issues engaging that ship. The neut sh!t might be a waste imo, but in a gang it may b worth it i dunno v0v

    Anyway, I think I'll be flying the new Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente destroyer most likely. Not to sure about the Caldari or Minmatar ones yet...

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Divine Damnation
    #312 - 2012-09-29 19:52:10 UTC
    Yuri Intaki wrote:
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application.


    You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills.


    I don't think you properly understand what's going on here. The Caldari destroyer will have the alpha of a 280mm Arty Thrasher. It will literally volley completely through a quad ASB Merlin's shields every single volley. It will literally volley any attack frigate, every single volley.

    -Liang

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
    Doddy
    Excidium.
    #313 - 2012-09-29 19:57:34 UTC
    Cpt Gobla wrote:
    I've seen it mentioned several times that Destroyer by definition have to be anti-Frigate vessels and I do have to ask, why?

    I mean I'm aware that was the original naval definition of such a vessel, but we're flying now, not sailing. Not to mention that most of EvE's ship classes don't fully match their naval counterparts, only the tier 3 BCs are real battlecruisers in the naval sense. The others would likely be classed as armoured cruisers.

    If both Destroyers have exactly the same role, fragile frigate killers, then chances are pretty damn high that of each race one hull will be considered superior and the other will hardly ever be used. They both fill the same role and as such will be measured by the same qualities.

    The prime consideration when designing these ships and their role should be the EvE universe, not irrelevant definitions of an entirely different form of warfare.


    Nah the role is down to weapon systems, so that early players (the ones using t1 dessies in the main) can choose on or the other. Not everyone in game has all skills trained and they need to make a choice.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #314 - 2012-09-29 19:59:08 UTC
    Major Killz wrote:
    However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v

    You are wrong, the new gallente destroyer is garbage, it does what the catalyst does but much worse and will have a much harder time applying drone damage than the Tristan. Both of the Tristan and Catalyst will destroy this new one without fail.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Divine Damnation
    #315 - 2012-09-29 19:59:19 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:

    aml right? so that like comparing duel 150s rails? those have crap dps too right? but 8 or 7 would do more then 8 lml or 150's...

    like whats the dps ona drake with 7 aml? or a brutix with 7 duel 150's?

    though i am sure a caracal would pwn the cal dessie... due to it being a glass launcher...


    Your post doesn't even make sense. Can you please come back with an argument that uses full sentences to explain what you're trying to get at? Are you trying to say it's got low DPS? Are you trying to say that the Drake will still kill it? What are you getting at?

    -Liang

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
    Doddy
    Excidium.
    #316 - 2012-09-29 20:10:11 UTC
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    Yuri Intaki wrote:
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application.


    You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills.


    I don't think you properly understand what's going on here. The Caldari destroyer will have the alpha of a 280mm Arty Thrasher. It will literally volley completely through a quad ASB Merlin's shields every single volley. It will literally volley any attack frigate, every single volley.

    -Liang


    Idk what thrashers you been flying, but they can't even volley a dual rep incursus that is stationary. An incursus or merlin will have repped back up before the next volley anyway. Really being able to kill unbuffered t1 frigs in a couple of volleys (they wont be able to volley the attack frigs either unless the have no dc) is way different to being OP doom of frigs.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #317 - 2012-09-29 20:18:03 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Major Killz wrote:
    However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v

    You are wrong, the new gallente destroyer is garbage, it does what the catalyst does but much worse and will have a much harder time applying drone damage than the Tristan. Both of the Tristan and Catalyst will destroy this new one without fail.


    Omnathious Deninard you're cute...

    Also the Harpy has no tracking bonus and it's tracking can be abused if caught even with dual stasis webifiers. Although, this new destroyer will be doing alot more damage than a Harpy will in that situation, because of it's drones.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #318 - 2012-09-29 20:20:23 UTC
    Major Killz wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Major Killz wrote:
    However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v

    You are wrong, the new gallente destroyer is garbage, it does what the catalyst does but much worse and will have a much harder time applying drone damage than the Tristan. Both of the Tristan and Catalyst will destroy this new one without fail.


    Omnathious Deninard you're cute...

    Also the Harpy has no tracking bonus and it's tracking can be abused if caught even with dual stasis webifiers. Although, this new destroyer will be doing alot more damage than a Harpy will in that situation, because of it's drones.

    The Tristan gets a +10% per level DRONE tracking bonus, it let's light drones rip through frigates.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #319 - 2012-09-29 20:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    Yuri Intaki wrote:
    Liang Nuren wrote:
    If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application.


    You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills.


    I don't think you properly understand what's going on here. The Caldari destroyer will have the alpha of a 280mm Arty Thrasher. It will literally volley completely through a quad ASB Merlin's shields every single volley. It will literally volley any attack frigate, every single volley.

    -Liang



    This isn't completely incorrect. I could and have 2 - 3 volley a medium-ASB merlin in a Navy Issue Caracal solo. He and his friends blew up thier signature with micro warp drives. Which probably helped. The damage with this new Caldari destroyer will be similar, but we'll see how the fittings pan out though.

    What's more concerning is groups of these Minmatar and Caldari destroyers... Infact I didnt elude to this in my first post because I'm hoping ccp will change them. Make these new destroyers focus on close range pvp and take away any range bonuses and leave long range to the ones we have now.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Warde Guildencrantz
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #320 - 2012-09-29 20:31:03 UTC
    CCP Goliath wrote:
    Recoil IV wrote:
    name for the caldari destroyer : Goliath


    I like your style!


    moar dragon names please:

    There is already the drake and the wyvern, as well as the worm, the chimaera, leviathan, and naga, but we could have the amphitere, ouroboros, hydra, amphisbaena, gargoyle, serpent, bakunawa, yilbegan, zmaj, cuelebre, vritra, ryu, scultone, dragua, zilant, ejderha, orochi, and the python as well, and likely more.

    TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us