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[Winter] New destroyers

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-09-28 23:55:34 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Giving the Gallente destroyer a possiblity of 10 drones is a bad idea, not due to server lag issues or anything wrong with fielding 10 light drones, but the fact that that will give you a 50 mbit 50 bay minimum, and thus the medium scout drones can be used.

This will take its intended role away (anti frigate platform)

As an alternative, i'm suggesting a role bonus change: Give it an increased warp disruptor range
Role bonus: 50% bonus to warp disruptor range

This will keep the gallente (drone) pilots happy and in line with its racials (although i do think you should consider dropping the mids to 2 the same as the amarr one then

5 medium drones dps is not equal to 10 light drone dps
using hobgoblins and hammerheads with max skills
10 hobgoblins 297dps
5 hammerheads 237.6 dps
i am most worried about server load and not dps difference, plus medium drones track for crap.
if the server can handle it the gallente bonuses would be great as such
+10% drone damage and hitpoints
+10% drone tracking and optimum range
role bonus +5 drone control

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Spr09
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#182 - 2012-09-29 00:00:51 UTC
This makes no sense to me, please make the gallente have drone bonuses instead of hybrid turret bonuses, then give it 50 bandwidth. Especially since the amarr will make a better drone boat than the gallente with the current stats.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-09-29 00:10:30 UTC
Still not sold on the idea that all destroyers must be anti-frigate hulls with crap defences. So both destroyers for each race are attack line, and you're going to eventually force players to train through the destroyer skill to level 4 to get cruisers. "Enjoy your glass cannons, noob pilots, because that's all we got'.

Yeah, I'd prefer to see these new destroyers be part of the combat line, with more defensive ability (low/mid slots). You can always add an almost identical glass cannon down the track a bit. Do I think this is going to happen? No. Had to say it though.

Like the changes to the DDA and light missile fittings, they were much needed Big smile

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#184 - 2012-09-29 00:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
These are all bad.

The Amarr one looks like some kind of fat Sentinal / Vengeance hybrid ship with less tank than a Punisher. I don't like it's mixed weapons systems. One thing that definitely should be mandatory on this one is a bonus to armor resistances, some decent armor HP, and in my opinion, a smaller signature radius than the other races.

The Gallente one is just... a Catalyst with less rails and more Drones, for whatever reason that is... What does that ship bring to the table that a Catalyst doesn't already do aside from drones? It needs more of a role, make it fully dedicated to drones like the Tristan or make it an active tanking brawler like the Incursus, I says.

The Caldari one.... well, I'm surprised it doesn't have more mid-slots, actually, but that's a good thing. It's going to be slow, but it's damage and range are going to be ludicrously over-powered. This is truly going to be the new Drake. People who say "ohh, but it won't have nearly the tank of the Drake!!11" Those people are truly, truly stupid. It's a destroyer, why would it have close to the tank of a Drake? The point is it's going to be a scary scary missile platform with stupid damage and damage projection, all on a tiny little 10 Million ISK Destroyer hull. Anyone who can't grasp this can sit on it. I mean, look at what a group of Condors is capable of doing these days! It's funny, but a few Condors are one of the scariest things you can run into right now.

The Minmatar one isn't even worth commenting on, really. Why are all these Minmatar ships being turned into missile boats? You guys gonna completely phase-out missiles as a primarily-Caldari weapons system?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#185 - 2012-09-29 00:14:48 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Isn't the caldari one just going to kill any frigate instantly within 60km?



In other words, it's going to be a valid anti-frigate ship.

Still I'm kind of unimpressed with the slot layout of the new Caldari destroyer. Why only three med slots? Caldari are renowned for having more medium slots than other races, all the time. Having only three meds, and then two lows, means it won't be able to really fit any kind of defense whatsoever- I'm aware that destroyers aren't ever meant to be capable of shrugging off everything ever, but really? I'm pretty sure that there are going to be frigates that will be more resilient than this ship.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#186 - 2012-09-29 00:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aglais wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Isn't the caldari one just going to kill any frigate instantly within 60km?



In other words, it's going to be a valid anti-frigate ship.

Still I'm kind of unimpressed with the slot layout of the new Caldari destroyer. Why only three med slots? Caldari are renowned for having more medium slots than other races, all the time. Having only three meds, and then two lows, means it won't be able to really fit any kind of defense whatsoever- I'm aware that destroyers aren't ever meant to be capable of shrugging off everything ever, but really? I'm pretty sure that there are going to be frigates that will be more resilient than this ship.


I think there should a difference between "valid anti-frigate ship" and "virtually guaranteed win against any frigate".

-Liang

Ed: And really, it's not just frigates that should worry. I'm pretty concerned that the ship as a whole will be massively OP.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-09-29 00:33:13 UTC
*Has wet dreams about Condor, new caldari dessy wolf packs killign everything
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#188 - 2012-09-29 00:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
like the look of them all except the gallente one. seems a waste to have a turret bonus on drone ships, especially when it doesn't add up to as much damage as a pure blaster boat (not saying make drone boats dps kings, i'm just saying take off the turret bonuses). or if this is a rail boat, then change the drone bonus.

though the rails might be nice for adding ranged dps for missions, i dnt see it having much clout in a pvp gang.
removing the bonuses for one weapon system for tanky, warp disruptor or tracking/drone bonuses might be nice.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Eckyy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2012-09-29 01:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The Minmatar one isn't even worth commenting on, really. Why are all these Minmatar ships being turned into missile boats? You guys gonna completely phase-out missiles as a primarily-Caldari weapons system?


They're filling out the racial weapon systems:

Amarr - Lasers / Drones
Caldari - Missles / Hybrids
Gallente - Hybrids / Drones
Minmatar - Projectiles / Missiles


I would like to see the Caldari destroyer moved away from a kinetic bonus, even if you feel the need to reduce its damage somewhat. 5% RoF with 7 launchers wouldn't be bad, it would deal 93% the damage with full damage type selection.

I believe the Gallente boat should have more drone love and less turret love, it does seem silly to me too that the bay is smaller than the Amarr destroyers (which you better not shrink!). 5 turrets and a change from a damage to a tracking bonus would be an appropriate change, but how about changing it to a drone velcoity and tracking bonus? It would read like this:

5% bonus to drone velocity and tracking per level (or maybe just 10% tracking)
10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level
Role bonus: 50% bonus to hybrid turret optimal range

OR, you could give it a really awesome bonus such as +10% per level range on WARP SCRAMBLERS. Talk about anti-frig, eh?

I like the Amarr destroyer. I appreciate that you've basically taken away the option of making it a damage monster with the split weapon system - it strongly disincentivizes fitting damage mods. It's like a cross between a miniature Curse and a Typoon, two ships I really love because of their unusualness.

The Minmatar destroyer I don't have strong feelings about. I'd say I'm not really in love with the idea of giving a destroyer hull a bonus to MWD sig bloom - we already have 12 interceptors in the game, this will make 13. I'm not suggesting a change but I'd be open to others' suggestions.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#190 - 2012-09-29 01:08:06 UTC
Amarr Destroyer:

I think after the ooo's and ahhhh's wear off from the novelty - most people will realize that this ship isn't as good as they think it is. Let's review:

The nos/nuets will have a range of 12km. Pulse lasers also will also have a range of 10 - 12km with Scorch. The hit point bonus for the drones is overkill. If the tank on the destroyer lasts longer then three flights of light drones, your opponent is really doing something wrong. Lastly, drone damage will range from 100 - 125 before Drone mods. That isn't alot of projection beyond 12km. Even then - the Drone damage bonus REALLY infringes on the Gallente. Lastly - three launchers?!? I thought we were trying to move away from that. I'm a fully skilled bitter vet. But it isn't very Amarr noob friendly at all.

In summary, we have a scary ship at under 12 km that is not very good beyond that. Here's my fix:

Lose the drone bonus. 75m^3 for a small ship is novelty enough. Give the ship an optimal bonus instead. Upgrade it to 4 turrets. This gives you a ship that can at least project significant damage. It may not have the firepower the upgraded Coercer offers - but it will be immune to one of the Coercer's glaring weaknesses - frigates getting under it's guns.

Caldari Destroyer:

Liang is right. It's too much. The obvious solution is to convert a high or two to something else.

Gallente Destroyer:

I've posted my thoughts here. I would ask the devs to go back and look at the Catalyst. I know you imagine everyone to use it with ion blasters - but a rail Cat is incredibly dangerous in it's own rights. I've crunched some numbers and the damage projection between a Rail Cat and this new destroyer do not vary enough to justify the delayed damage. If you were to strip the optimal bonus off of the Cat and give it a double falloff bonus though.....

Minmatar Destroyer:

My HG Halo Clone with Loki boosts will be MWD'ing around with a sig radius of 75m in this thing. 69.4m with a blingy MWD. Lots of hillarity should ensue.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2012-09-29 01:09:43 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
These are all bad.

The Amarr one looks like some kind of fat Sentinal / Vengeance hybrid ship with less tank than a Punisher. I don't like it's mixed weapons systems. One thing that definitely should be mandatory on this one is a bonus to armor resistances, some decent armor HP, and in my opinion, a smaller signature radius than the other races.

Are destroyers designed to have resilience as one of their feature traits? My understanding was they were not, thus a strong defensive bonus seems inappropriate. The neut bonus does seem out of place though.
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The Gallente one is just... a Catalyst with less rails and more Drones, for whatever reason that is... What does that ship bring to the table that a Catalyst doesn't already do aside from drones? It needs more of a role, make it fully dedicated to drones like the Tristan or make it an active tanking brawler like the Incursus, I says.

Drones are the secondary weapons of the Gallente, and this is a class based mainly on direct combat rather than ewar/logistics/etc. So instead of drones we would have to do um... hybrids again?
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The Caldari one.... well, I'm surprised it doesn't have more mid-slots, actually, but that's a good thing. It's going to be slow, but it's damage and range are going to be ludicrously over-powered. This is truly going to be the new Drake. People who say "ohh, but it won't have nearly the tank of the Drake!!11" Those people are truly, truly stupid. It's a destroyer, why would it have close to the tank of a Drake? The point is it's going to be a scary scary missile platform with stupid damage and damage projection, all on a tiny little 10 Million ISK Destroyer hull. Anyone who can't grasp this can sit on it. I mean, look at what a group of Condors is capable of doing these days! It's funny, but a few Condors are one of the scariest things you can run into right now.
Odd how you say this one rightfully shouldn't have a strong tank from the shield resist race but the Amarr one should have a resist bonus.
Eckyy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2012-09-29 01:10:56 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Amarr Destroyer:

I think after the ooo's and ahhhh's wear off from the novelty - most people will realize that this ship isn't as good as they think it is. Let's review:

The nos/nuets will have a range of 12km. Pulse lasers also will also have a range of 10 - 12km with Scorch. The hit point bonus for the drones is overkill. If the tank on the destroyer lasts longer then three flights of light drones, your opponent is really doing something wrong. Lastly, drone damage will range from 100 - 125 before Drone mods. That isn't alot of projection beyond 12km. Even then - the Drone damage bonus REALLY infringes on the Gallente. Lastly - three launchers?!? I thought we were trying to move away from that. I'm a fully skilled bitter vet. But it isn't very Amarr noob friendly at all.

In summary, we have a scary ship at under 12 km that is not very good beyond that. Here's my fix:

Lose the drone bonus. 75m^3 for a small ship is novelty enough. Give the ship an optimal bonus instead. Upgrade it to 4 turrets. This gives you a ship that can at least project significant damage. It may not have the firepower the upgraded Coercer offers - but it will be immune to one of the Coercer's glaring weaknesses - frigates getting under it's guns.


Wait a sec. 4 turrets + optimal bonus... doesn't that make it a crappier Gallente destroyer?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#193 - 2012-09-29 01:11:35 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
These are all bad.

The Amarr one looks like some kind of fat Sentinal / Vengeance hybrid ship with less tank than a Punisher. I don't like it's mixed weapons systems. One thing that definitely should be mandatory on this one is a bonus to armor resistances, some decent armor HP, and in my opinion, a smaller signature radius than the other races.


destroyers are designed to have more gank than tank, so resist boost would be un characterful (and as i say that i regret suggesting the gallente might be better with a tanky bonus). also, amarr shouldn't have smaller sig radius than minmatar. its fine where it is.

Ares Desideratus wrote:

The Minmatar one isn't even worth commenting on, really. Why are all these Minmatar ships being turned into missile boats? You guys gonna completely phase-out missiles as a primarily-Caldari weapons system?


missiles have been a significant part of the minmatar race since the beginning. but looks like CCP are doing away with some split systems and providing missile boosts to some minnie ships. This in no way makes minnie a more missile based race than caldari and it makes u look silly to suggest so.

i generally agree with u else where tho.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alara IonStorm
#194 - 2012-09-29 01:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Galphii wrote:

Yeah, I'd prefer to see these new destroyers be part of the combat line, with more defensive ability (low/mid slots). You can always add an almost identical glass cannon down the track a bit. Do I think this is going to happen? No. Had to say it though.

Same. I would like more then glass Destroyers introduced along side the lighter ships.

I would like to see the DPS of these things cut and more tank added to the mix. Make the old ones the glass cannons and the new ones heavier.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-09-29 01:16:13 UTC
At first glance the Caldari one looks awfully strong.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#196 - 2012-09-29 01:22:18 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, this puts the new Caldari Missile destroyer in the 210 - 260 DPS at 60+ km range

Does this not negate everything you have already said about HML's, range and damage projection considering this is following the current trends and not the new path you guys were trying to lay down?

Arty thrasher will have nearly 25% lower alpha strike at 20km shorter optimal and more damage reduction from tracking compared to the double boost to the missiles this patch seems to be offering.



not really as a kestral could operate at around 70k
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#197 - 2012-09-29 01:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Eckyy wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Amarr Destroyer:

I think after the ooo's and ahhhh's wear off from the novelty - most people will realize that this ship isn't as good as they think it is. Let's review:

The nos/nuets will have a range of 12km. Pulse lasers also will also have a range of 10 - 12km with Scorch. The hit point bonus for the drones is overkill. If the tank on the destroyer lasts longer then three flights of light drones, your opponent is really doing something wrong. Lastly, drone damage will range from 100 - 125 before Drone mods. That isn't alot of projection beyond 12km. Even then - the Drone damage bonus REALLY infringes on the Gallente. Lastly - three launchers?!? I thought we were trying to move away from that. I'm a fully skilled bitter vet. But it isn't very Amarr noob friendly at all.

In summary, we have a scary ship at under 12 km that is not very good beyond that. Here's my fix:

Lose the drone bonus. 75m^3 for a small ship is novelty enough. Give the ship an optimal bonus instead. Upgrade it to 4 turrets. This gives you a ship that can at least project significant damage. It may not have the firepower the upgraded Coercer offers - but it will be immune to one of the Coercer's glaring weaknesses - frigates getting under it's guns.


Wait a sec. 4 turrets + optimal bonus... doesn't that make it a crappier Gallente destroyer?


I think the nuet/nos bonus speaks for itself in that regard. But expecting a slow destroyer to rush up to a frigate at 12km to apply it's damage - that's not going to work. This boat will get kited to death by everything. Even with three nuets and a flight of hobgoblins - most high dps destroyers will put this thing down before it can suck them dry.

My rail cat does 414 DPS at 14km and 289 DPS at 23km. The 'upgraded' coercer I put together on the test server has a long point, puts 350 dps out to 19km, and has 5k ehp. With conflag - it does 491 dps. That is what this drone boat is up against. 115 DPS from turrets with no range and 155 delayed drone DPS aren't going to cut it.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#198 - 2012-09-29 01:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
That Minmatar destroyer looks like it doesn't fit in at all...
Forcing it into a MWD role to use bonus?
Taking on the roles of AF?

I could understand a shield boost bonus and a strong base velocity with a 4 medslot layout,
but this seems weird...

Also the energy weapon bonus on the amarr is usually a good bonus but why not keep that for T2 ships and get it a optimal bonus that will be usefull at range with the small drone swarm? Im happy about new things but crossing into T2 territory in situations where it might not even work seems "messy" to me.

Pinky
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#199 - 2012-09-29 01:37:39 UTC
Problem of the gallente destroyer is the two wasted high slot. Nothing will ever fit in there. That mean that this ship have in fact 3 less slot than the caldari and minmatar ones...

Seriously, what to do with these high slots ? Neut/nos ? You wouldn't be able to fit anything other than electron or 75mm, there's not missile hard point and you would need 50 more tf of CPU to fit a drone link augmentor. So it's short range or two wasted slots. Well, you may be able to use them for overload I guess...
Lili Lu
#200 - 2012-09-29 01:45:01 UTC
This is a very disappointing op and thread. Where to begin.

Gallente:
Seriously? A 50% optimal role bonus? That already exists on all the existing destroyers Straight And now it will only apply to 4 turrets on this new destroyer. Fix the catalyst, give it more grid, and make this new destroyer something new and not another split weapon gallente failure. Also, a 25/50 dronebay that is not as good as the Amarr one is a second slap in the face.

Make the second bonus the tracking bonus the Tristan is getting. And then make the role bonus a 10m3 dronebay per level. Thus at level 5 the dronebay would be 100m3 and thus better than the Amarr dronebay. Drone destroyers are going to lose lots of drones (isk will become a ***** but oh well) so they'd better have lots of spares. Then give the ship another turret to make up for losing the 5% hybrid damage bonus.

Amarr:
I don't like your giving a tech I ship a neuting range or amount bonus. And to only give it 2 mids doesn't work for that (a cap recharge bonus still leaves the ship vulnerable to medium and heavy neut alpha). So, how does it fuel the neuts and still have prop and tackle mods? It doesn't.

But then how do you make this ship stand out? Well, no problem with keying on the missile launchers. The coercer is a laser boat. The worm is a drone+missile boat but it shield tanks. So this destroyer can be a drone+missile boat that armor tanks. Give it 4 launchers and no turrets. The second ship bonus could be a drone tracking bonus like the Gallente destroyer. Then the role bonus can be a +5% em damage or rof bonus on the launchers. This split weapon bonus paradigm actually will satisfy Amarr tech II Khanid Innovation fans I would bet.

Minmatar:
Ok the missile boats have to be carerful not to be absolute murder on frigates. The Caldari one is game breaker, but I'll get to that last. The damge bonus is fine. The range role bonus is maybe ok, but I'll comment on it with the Caldari comments below. But I have no idea what you are doing with this new mwd sig reduction bonus.

I haven't run the math on what that does to the size of the ship in powered flight. Regardless you are shorting the offensive capacity of this ship by restricting it to 7 launchers and then giving in 2 defensive features (the sig reduction and the extra low slot). This seems to be breaking the mould on this class of new destroyers that all are getting offensive bonuses only except for this ship. I suppose the extra low could be filled with another BCS as against the Caldari one, or a TE and thus something like what the Caldari one's proposed bonus is. But I really can't figure this out, so I'll leave this for others to comment on.

Caldari:
And here is where I have real concerns. The damage bonus is fine. The range and explosion velocity bonuses though I'm concerned about especially in conjunction with the new TC/TE mechanics. Even without the new mods these bonuses with the increased light missile damage and the other ship damage bonus could alone make these ships absolute frigate murderers. It could very well moot all the work you are doing on frigs. The drone boats drones can be killed, and the travel time on the drones is slower and very more noticiable on the screen. But killer missiles are not so apparent (especially since many of us have the trails turned off for frame rate issues, and even if not they are not going to be blinking yellow as they travel toward the targeted ship).

I would like to see the math on what a 50% range velocity bonus will mean in conjunction with new mTCs/mTEs. Also, ditto for the secondary explosion velocity bonuses and the new missile tracking mods. You absolutley have to avoid making these two missile destroyers into Instant frigate nullifers. Be very careful with this. Maybe post some numbers for us.