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[Winter] New destroyers

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Garthrim Alighieri
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2012-09-28 21:37:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time has come to spam this forum section with another sticky - this time on the new destroyers coming out for winter.

The new destroyers keep the same role as existing hulls - anti-frigate platform. However they use alternate weapon systems to reach that goal, which means drones and missiles. Next to the existing destroyers, they have slightly less mobility, more signature radius, less capacitor but have a bit better EHP and increased damage projection due to the weapon types they use. Price will be the same than for existing destroyers.


[list]
  • AMARR DESTROYER:

    • The Amarr destroyer is designed to take down opposition through indirect means. On the downside, the damage is nothing to write home about, but the combination of energy disruption ability plus drone control makes it dangerous at shutting enemy frigates off, then finishing them properly when they're helpless. It also has quite a generous dronebay, for multiple drone replacements.

    Ship bonuses:
    +10% to drone damage and hitpoint per level
    +20% bonus to energy vampire and energy neutralizer transfer range per level
    Role bonus:
    +25% to ship capacitor recharge rate
    Slot layout: 6 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, 3 launchers
    Fittings: 55 PWG, 150 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 750 / 950 / 850
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 600 / 370s / 1.62s
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 2.75 / 1700000 / 4.71s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 39km / 525 / 6
    Sensor strength: 10 radar
    Signature radius: 66
    Cargo capacity: 300

  • GALLENTE DESTROYER:

    • Gallente are always about raw firepower, that's why this ship combines both turret and drone damage to achieve its goals. While the damage is lower than a Catalyst, remember that drone projection remains stable at much farther ranges (especially with drone damage amplifier changes below). On the downside, it has a limited dronebay next to the Amarr version, making it more difficult to replace lost drones.

    Ship bonuses:
    +10% to drone damage and HP per level
    +5% to small hybrid turret damage per level
    Role bonus:
    +50% small hybrid turret optimal range
    Slot layout: 6 H, 3 M, 3 L, 4 turrets
    Fittings: 55 PWG, 150 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 800 / 850 / 950
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 550 / 350s / 1.57s
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240 / 2.45 / 1800000 / 4.46s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42km / 500 / 7
    Sensor strength: 11 magnetometric
    Signature radius: 72
    Cargo capacity: 350


    Based on the ewar bonus, it seems the two drone boats lack the symmetry that the missile boats have. Maybe give the gall ship a bonus to sensor damps and/or ewar drones? That would be pretty awesome, giving the gall ship the option of choosing to use guns as damage supported by drone ewar, use drones and guns as damage, or drones as damage supported by some nice sensor damps, so the badies can't lock onto the drones (thereby giving the drones more survivability, decreasing the need for a drone bay as large as the amarr's).

    Also: love the bonus to drone damage mods. Should really finish the job of make drone boats useful.
    Takeshi Yamato
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #162 - 2012-09-28 21:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • MODULE CHANGES:

    • Balancing these ships made us realize some further tweaks were needed on some modules to make these destroyers, and as an extend, some other ships / setups more useful.

    * All light missile launcher fittings: CPU reduced by 4, PWG reduced by 2
    * Drone Damage Amplifier I: CPU increased from 27 to 30, drone damage increased from 15 to 16%
    * Drone Damage Amplifier II: CPU reduced from 32 to 30, drone damage increased from 19 to 23%


    While you're doing drone stuff, any chance to rebalance the EM and KIN drones?

    The EM drones are particularly bad because they have their damage modifier swapped with EXP drones (EM drones are supposed to do more dps)
    Kuan Yida
    Huang Yinglong
    Electus Matari
    #163 - 2012-09-28 21:53:54 UTC
    Proposed Minmatar destroyer name (yes, I know no frigs are named after types of storms): Derecho

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derecho

    The dragon knight treasures the state, friendship, duty, promises, kindness, vengeance, honor, and righteousness more than his own life._ _- The Way of the Dragon Warrior Random Posts from Auga

    Kuan Yida
    Huang Yinglong
    Electus Matari
    #164 - 2012-09-28 21:56:54 UTC
    Liang Nuren wrote:


    The Caldari destroyer gets almost 80% more alpha than today's AML Caracal, and applies it better as well. It also gets really fantastic range, which means that it's able to take advantage of the full range of overheated bonused point range.

    I cannot overstate how powerful this ship is going to be.

    -Liang


    Only because it will be an easy rock to the scissors of your uber-boosted T1 missile frigs...

    The dragon knight treasures the state, friendship, duty, promises, kindness, vengeance, honor, and righteousness more than his own life._ _- The Way of the Dragon Warrior Random Posts from Auga

    ITTigerClawIK
    Galactic Rangers
    #165 - 2012-09-28 22:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ITTigerClawIK
    can the amarr dessie trade a turret slot for a launcher slot or vice versa, i would like a light launcher dessie for amarr.

    also visuals of the new dessies so far

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Eif63YEOA&feature=relmfu

    + new Tempest
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #166 - 2012-09-28 22:00:36 UTC
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    Gallente - kill the hybrid damage bonus. Give it a hybrid tracking bonus instead. Give it a fifth turret slot (4 * 1.25 = 5 anyways). It's CPU is too weak to consider drone upgrades in those two spare highs anyways.


    Hmmm interesting, that's one way of putting it - it negates tracking issues with rails and give the boat some love. We'll have another math run at this after the week-end. Keep the constructive comments coming people.

    Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainz


    Since we are thinking out of the box on these destroyers...

    Ship bonuses:
    +10% to drone HP per level
    +5% to drone damage per level
    Role bonus:
    Can fit Drone Control Units (reduced fitting cost)
    Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets, 0 launchers
    Fittings: 55 PWG, 150 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 800 / 850 / 950
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 550 / 350s / 1.57s
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240 / 2.45 / 1800000 / 4.46s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42km / 500 / 7
    Sensor strength: 11 magnetometric
    Signature radius: 72
    Cargo capacity: 350


    lol... suddenly the moderately cheap dessie requires 100+m to fit...
    Hannott Thanos
    Squadron 15
    #167 - 2012-09-28 22:01:58 UTC
    Then make a new module?

    while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

         _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

    }
    PinkKnife
    The Cuddlefish
    Ethereal Dawn
    #168 - 2012-09-28 22:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
    I'm still lost as to how this statement doesn't contradict itself on 2 or 3 levels

    Quote:
    Gallente are always about raw firepower, that's why this ship combines both turret and drone damage to achieve its goals. While the damage is lower than a Catalyst, remember that drone projection remains stable at much farther ranges (especially with drone damage amplifier changes below). On the downside, it has a limited dronebay next to the Amarr version, making it more difficult to replace lost drones


    Gallente are for raw firepower, has less DPS/applicable dps than Catalyst/others.

    Drone projection remains stable at far ranges, uses shortest effective range guns. (50% to small hybrids puts it out to what, 4km instead of 1?)

    Gallente race specializes in drones, worse dronebay and same bandwidth as Amarr ship.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #169 - 2012-09-28 22:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
    PinkKnife wrote:
    I'm still lost as to how this statement doesn't contradict itself on 2 or 3 levels

    Quote:
    Gallente are always about raw firepower, that's why this ship combines both turret and drone damage to achieve its goals. While the damage is lower than a Catalyst, remember that drone projection remains stable at much farther ranges (especially with drone damage amplifier changes below). On the downside, it has a limited dronebay next to the Amarr version, making it more difficult to replace lost drones


    Gallente are for raw firepower, has less DPS/applicable dps than Catalyst/others.

    Drone projection remains stable at far ranges, uses shortest effective range guns. (50% to small hybrids puts it out to what, 4km instead of 1?)

    Gallente race specializes in drones, worse dronebay and same bandwidth as Amarr ship.



    Drone projection is pretty **** at range.. ° Put five warriors on a slicer and see how well they project the damage.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Hazard117
    The Milkmen
    Churn and Burn
    #170 - 2012-09-28 22:12:58 UTC
    Name the caldari destroyer the Owl. I mean theres the Hawk, Moa, Falcon might as well add another bird / creature name in to the caldari ship list.
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #171 - 2012-09-28 22:15:51 UTC
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    Then make a new module?

    All I can think of is CCP Fozzie's quote about Veritas poisoning his coffee when I see suggestions that try to get around drone ship issues by just putting more drones on the field. That and curiosity over the reasoning behind solving drone DPS application issues by adding more unapplied drone DPS.
    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Divine Damnation
    #172 - 2012-09-28 22:15:58 UTC
    Kuan Yida wrote:
    Liang Nuren wrote:


    The Caldari destroyer gets almost 80% more alpha than today's AML Caracal, and applies it better as well. It also gets really fantastic range, which means that it's able to take advantage of the full range of overheated bonused point range.

    I cannot overstate how powerful this ship is going to be.

    -Liang


    Only because it will be an easy rock to the scissors of your uber-boosted T1 missile frigs...


    Hahahaha, I can fly literally anything. I really don't give a **** what I'm flying. What would actually end up happening is that we would simply move to whatever the new OP thing is - in this case, the missile destroyer. I'm really thinking of you when I say this. :)

    -Liang

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
    Nissui
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #173 - 2012-09-28 22:20:10 UTC
    Just for the hell of it... some sample hull names.

    Amarr: Oblate
    Minmatar: Harpoon
    Gallente: Ceto
    Caldari: Skua
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #174 - 2012-09-28 22:22:43 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    Then make a new module?

    All I can think of is CCP Fozzie's quote about Veritas poisoning his coffee when I see suggestions that try to get around drone ship issues by just putting more drones on the field. That and curiosity over the reasoning behind solving drone DPS application issues by adding more unapplied drone DPS.

    It is all about drone tracking, with the new Tristan I took out a imperial navy slicer using a gistii b type mwd using hobgoblins.
    IMO drones need 3 things to work well, tracking speed, optimum range, and dps. HP is a nice improvement as is velocity, but I think come second to the rest

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #175 - 2012-09-28 22:24:47 UTC
    Nissui wrote:
    Just for the hell of it... some sample hull names.

    Amarr: Oblate
    Minmatar: Harpoon
    Gallente: CetoCaca
    Caldari: Skua

    Fixed that for you

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Drew Solaert
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #176 - 2012-09-28 22:45:31 UTC
    All of these beasts look amazing on paper, and I'm certainly going to be partaking in them all.

    Only thing that bothers me is the Gallente one, 4 turrets and 5 light drones doesn't really get me going, would love to see a 5th on there. 4 just feels underwhelming with what the other 3 races are packing. Also would love to see that optimal changed to a falloff bonus. Can't have everything though ^^

    I lied :o
    Reppyk
    The Black Shell
    #177 - 2012-09-28 23:05:45 UTC
    I'm requesting a single turret slot for the caldari destroyer.

    I want to play with the machine gun of my submarine.

    I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

    Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
    Bloodpetal
    Tir Capital Management Group
    #178 - 2012-09-28 23:08:40 UTC

    Ok... you dropped a doozy.

    #1.

    Do we REALLY need ANOTHER anti-frig platform? Like. Seriously? It's hard enough being a frigate pilot, but now we have another 4 ways to kill them? I know this is late in the drawing board for you, but can you consider giving these dessies a different role? Let them fit a Single Capital Launcher or something... but seriously... frigates really don't need to be stepped on any more, or noone will fly them and just fly these dessies instead. Roll


    To the topic at hand...

    Amarr.
    Neuts are very powerful. How does this not conflict with the sentinel? The neut bonuses have been reserved for T2 and faction ships in the past for a reason, and that's because if you want it, better be ready to put the ISK on the field to deploy it.

    A cheap version of this, I'm not crazy about, at all.

    Please change this bonus so we can properly assess with comparable ships.


    Caldari ::

    I don't know why people think this will be underpowered? Having the equivalent of 10 missile launchers is pretty disgusting already, and with the improved performance, they'll be pretty disgusting at killing interceptors.

    I don't see a specific issue with the overall fittings. I'm sure some others can give you better suggestions on the PG/CPU/EHP balance going on here since i don't specialize in caldari stuff.


    Gallente ::

    I think the damage bonus + the hybrid damage bonus is pretty disgusting. It's just a mini-Ishkur that's cheaper. I agree with doing the tracking bonus.



    Minmatar ::

    I think it's an interesting design here... Hard to comment.


    But, can't we make an alternative role for these destroyers? Instead of more KILL FRIGATES!!! There's potential to do some more interesting ideas to work from? Or is that completely not worth discussing and theory-crafting and we're getting more anti-frig platforms?






    Where I am.
    Kesthely
    Mestana
    #179 - 2012-09-28 23:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesthely
    Giving the Gallente destroyer a possiblity of 10 drones is a bad idea, not due to server lag issues or anything wrong with fielding 10 light drones, but the fact that that will give you a 50 mbit 50 bay minimum, and thus the medium scout drones can be used.

    This will take its intended role away (anti frigate platform)

    As an alternative, i'm suggesting a role bonus change: Give it an increased warp disruptor range
    Role bonus: 50% bonus to warp disruptor range

    This will keep the gallente (drone) pilots happy and in line with its racials (although i do think you should consider dropping the mids to 2 the same as the amarr one then
    Marcel Devereux
    Aideron Robotics
    Aideron Robotics.
    #180 - 2012-09-28 23:21:56 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Zarnak Wulf wrote:
    Gallente - kill the hybrid damage bonus. Give it a hybrid tracking bonus instead. Give it a fifth turret slot (4 * 1.25 = 5 anyways). It's CPU is too weak to consider drone upgrades in those two spare highs anyways.


    Hmmm interesting, that's one way of putting it - it negates tracking issues with rails and give the boat some love. We'll have another math run at this after the week-end. Keep the constructive comments coming people.

    Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainz


    I'm drinking now so my grumpiness over these changes is passing. Time for some constructive feedback.

    If this ship is really about damage projection then how about a fall-off in place of that damage bonus? Tracking is nice but a fall-off and optimal range bonus will give this ship some versatility that it is lacking. It can go both rails or blasters and have good damage projection.