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New [scratch] Tiericide the T1 Battlecruisers.

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2011-10-14 11:26:54 UTC
I'd prefer if other ships got a boost instead of ccp nerfing the **** out of things that people have trained for.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Jenshae Chiroptera
#82 - 2011-10-14 13:26:28 UTC
bongpacks wrote:

Is the drake overpowered, heck no I wish it was. To get that fabled uber tank you guys keep talking about you'd have the DPS of a fail fit assault frigate. Roll


Resists tank:
522 reinforced defence
64 541 eHP
548 DPS (not ever heated)

This is by a fail fitter. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#83 - 2011-10-14 16:15:20 UTC
"Fail fit" Cyclone killed two C2 Sleeper battleships (one of them neuting) without having to warp out in just under nine minutes with T1 guns and drones. Cool

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Tyme Xandr
Weyl Manufacturing
#84 - 2011-10-14 17:01:10 UTC
After reading through this thread there are a few things that just dont make sense.

#1) Kinetic damage is an anti armor damage type. Shields have high kinetic resistance, armor doesnt.
#2) A HAC is for use against other cruisers and under, not battlecruisers. Not saying HACs cant kill Battlecruisers, but that wasnt their intended use.
#3) Tier 1 BC's are all broken. Prophecy is a tank with little other ability, Cyclone is a PVE ship that cant fit itself correctly. Ferox is a joke, Brutix is a glass cannon.
#4) Tier 2 BC's are all specialized. Drake is high tank, low/mid DPS PVE or PVP support ship (depending on HAL, HL). Hurricane is high DPS, mid tank PVP boat (guns dont need cap, highest base speed), Harb is a high DPS, low tank, never reload PVP ship. And Myrm is a drone boat.
#5) Caldari ships are the PVE ships of EVE. Drake, Raven, Golem, and Tengu are pretty much prefered over all other ships cept the Mach and sometimes the Nightmare depending on the situation/area. Guess what happens most the time in WHs? PVE.

Drake has many great points about it, but I've killed them with a Zealot. I've killed them with a Maelstrom. I've killed them with a Brutix. I've also had a lot of fun running around in drake fleets alpha launching enemies as well. My best suggestion to you is to fly a drake before you go crazy. Sure it may do well when your fighting NPCs, but try playing against some real ships sometime. Sure you wont be primaried ... but ... just stick around instead of running away when your main DPS is taken down.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#85 - 2011-10-14 17:40:19 UTC
Tyme Xandr wrote:

#3) Tier 1 BC's are all broken. Prophecy is a tank with little other ability, Cyclone is a PVE ship that cant fit itself correctly. Ferox is a joke, Brutix is a glass cannon.
.

That is the main problem and reason for this thread I think.

I PvP in another Cyclone too. Love it when they shoot me, the only ship in the fleet with a good rep / boost and then they start going down while I tank them. Pirate

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Tyme Xandr
Weyl Manufacturing
#86 - 2011-10-14 17:47:43 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyme Xandr wrote:

#3) Tier 1 BC's are all broken. Prophecy is a tank with little other ability, Cyclone is a PVE ship that cant fit itself correctly. Ferox is a joke, Brutix is a glass cannon.
.

That is the main problem and reason for this thread I think.

I PvP in another Cyclone too. Love it when they shoot me, the only ship in the fleet with a good rep / boost and then they start going down while I tank them. Pirate


And I can understand an outcry to 'fix' tier 1 BC's, but I don't think the drake should be changed (in accordance to the 'New Drake' title). The other battlecruisers should be tweaked in their own ways, but none of them should be similar at all.

The Harby and Myrm need tweaks, the cane and drake dont. The tier one BCs besides the brutix definitely need some looking into as well. But this applies to tier 1 and 2 frigates and some of the cruisers as well.

With CCPs new focus on 'fixing EVE' I hope they remember to take a hard look at the ships currently in game. I dont mind specializing and I think its great when ships do that, but it should be equal across the board in their different specialties. That might not make sense at first glance but lets all just think about that for a sec. Currently each race has a handful of ships that are usually always flown while the others are ignored ... shouldn't we at least make the ignored viable in some aspect?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#87 - 2011-10-14 21:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Tyme Xandr wrote:
... shouldn't we at least make the ignored viable in some aspect?

I totally agree but do feel this thread's thought process leading from nerfing a Drake to buffing the others is important when and particularly "why" they are being considered for improvements.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#88 - 2011-10-16 13:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Quote:
Alli member > Woo! I can officially fly a Tengu! \o/
Jenshae Chiroptera > You were Draking it in a C4? o.O
Alli member > I was
Jenshae Chiroptera > Warp in - warp out?
Alli member > With two repping-tengus? I haven't warped out more than twice in my carreer in here


Why would anyone want a Drake in a C4? This is a complete mystery to me.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#89 - 2011-10-16 15:01:09 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I'd prefer if other ships got a boost instead of ccp nerfing the **** out of things that people have trained for.


Since balance is relative, not absolute, boosting a competing ship is "nerfing the **** out of things that people have trained for".
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#90 - 2011-10-16 15:52:04 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I'd prefer if other ships got a boost instead of ccp nerfing the **** out of things that people have trained for.


Since balance is relative, not absolute, boosting a competing ship is "nerfing the **** out of things that people have trained for".

How dare you use logic at EVE forums? Shocked

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#91 - 2011-10-16 15:59:01 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
The point is that Drakes are clearly the most imbalanced BC in the game. In every other instance you're forced to choose between range, dps, and tank (pick any two) when you go to fit your BC. The Drake gets them all-- the range of a LR glass-cannon turret BC, the DPS of a closerange turret BC, and the tank of a battleship. Its a completely ridiculous ship, and anyone who argues otherwise is an illogical ******. Death2drakes.



Replace your canes for Drakes, problem solved.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#92 - 2011-10-16 16:00:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Gypsio III wrote:

Since balance is relative, not absolute, boosting a competing ship is "nerfing the **** out of things that people have trained for".


It can actually be worked out. Devs make a cookie cutter fit then calculate the damage it can sustain. Same with the damage it can deal.

Then you just add more damage to one and reduce the damage it can sustain equally. That way the, the damage dealer and the tank will be evenly matched.

Simple calculation of rates based off optimums.

For this example, let us assume the hurricane is the damage dealer, the Drake is the tank and (yeah I know, haha) the Harbinger is the medium.

Now over a period of 1 minute the harbinger can deal 24 000 damage and tank 24 000
The Drake would tank 32 000 and deal only 16 000
While the Hurricane would be inverse and tank 16 000 but deal a whopping 32 000

Now, you might look at the harbinger and feel sorry for it when it faces a Hurricane but it can get logistics and it will probably beat the Drake. The harbinger would also work better in fleets as all rounders than in gank gangs like the Hurricane.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#93 - 2011-10-16 16:31:33 UTC
Tyme Xandr wrote:
After reading through this thread there are a few things that just dont make sense.

#1) Kinetic damage is an anti armor damage type. Shields have high kinetic resistance, armor doesnt.
#2) A HAC is for use against other cruisers and under, not battlecruisers. Not saying HACs cant kill Battlecruisers, but that wasnt their intended use.
#3) Tier 1 BC's are all broken. Prophecy is a tank with little other ability, Cyclone is a PVE ship that cant fit itself correctly. Ferox is a joke, Brutix is a glass cannon.
#4) Tier 2 BC's are all specialized. Drake is high tank, low/mid DPS PVE or PVP support ship (depending on HAL, HL). Hurricane is high DPS, mid tank PVP boat (guns dont need cap, highest base speed), Harb is a high DPS, low tank, never reload PVP ship. And Myrm is a drone boat.
#5) Caldari ships are the PVE ships of EVE. Drake, Raven, Golem, and Tengu are pretty much prefered over all other ships cept the Mach and sometimes the Nightmare depending on the situation/area. Guess what happens most the time in WHs? PVE.

Drake has many great points about it, but I've killed them with a Zealot. I've killed them with a Maelstrom. I've killed them with a Brutix. I've also had a lot of fun running around in drake fleets alpha launching enemies as well. My best suggestion to you is to fly a drake before you go crazy. Sure it may do well when your fighting NPCs, but try playing against some real ships sometime. Sure you wont be primaried ... but ... just stick around instead of running away when your main DPS is taken down.


1- false, if you armor tank and your biggest hole is KIN then it's a fail fit

2-Who ever said HAC's are not ment to kill BC's?

3- Tiers stuff is all broken, some people have already made some interesting threads about it indeed, unfortunately CCP never answered or given any point of view about it other than "it's not useless" ... so lets continue it's awesome game design.

4-ok

5- wrong, caldari ships are not more pve than pvp but you just named some ships SHIELD tanking so I'll take that route.
When even armor supposed ships are better shield tanking don't you think there's clearly some problem?

-Armor tanking fitting requirements
-Armor tanking slots layout
-Armor tanking fitting mods
-Armor tanking mods/rigs penalty

-DPS mods being low slots

Shield advantages over armor? -all of them from tanking to dps, hell even shield vindicators are known to be better than armor versions, shield domis, shield brutix and this is just for gallente.
Keel Wylder
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#94 - 2011-10-16 20:07:21 UTC
I think you guys are missing the biggest point on why these ships are inferior to the drake. CAPACITOR and cap recharge time.
followed by damage. Increase both of these plus train some core skills and you will find they are different ships.
As for damage the 2 ships that can fit medium drones are ok but the rest need a bump. A increase in the rate of fire should fix this that added to the capacitor increase would make a big difference.
Quark Valhala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2011-10-16 20:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Quark Valhala
Got another thought. Maybe just nerf the heavy missle range.
To kite ships should be minmatars thing, they have **** damage on range.

So my questions goes why should a Drake have stupid efhp with a nano, go + 1000ms
And shot to 75km with around 500.dps when their weapons kinda is buffed when gettin a fight with mwd on (high sigs)
Jenshae Chiroptera
#96 - 2011-10-16 23:56:16 UTC
Armour repairs, the Large should be X-Large and there needs to be a new "Large" that a BC can fit with the same ease that they can fit Large Shield Boosters.

Then damage mods for medium slots.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Spr09
Reign of Steel
Brave Collective
#97 - 2011-10-17 03:30:35 UTC
imo the caldari battlecruisers are the only ones that are balanced. cycleon, brutix, and prophecy need love man! give the three extra turret hardpoints, 5 on a ship that's supposed to be a dps boat is really stupid.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#98 - 2011-10-17 08:40:32 UTC
The tier 1 BCs are fine. The reason that no-one flies them is solely because of the existence of the tier 2 BCs. Consider these fits against their main prey of T1 cruisers:

The Prophecy can do 466 DPS with 70k EHP.
The Cyclone can do 502 DPS with 454 DPS tanked.
The Brutix can do 860 DPS with 44k EHP in full-tackle shield buffer mode, or 600 DPS with 290 DPS tanked (doesn't cap out instantly like the Cyclone though).
The Ferox can do 180 DPS at 140 km with 34k EHP, or 580 DPS with 57k EHP.

All of these ships are still very capable against their intended targets of T1 cruisers. The only reason that they're not used is because they're obsoleted by the tier 2s.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#99 - 2011-10-17 11:10:32 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

All of these ships are still very capable against their intended targets of T1 cruisers. The only reason that they're not used is because they're obsoleted by the tier 2s.


Okay, so I am saying, let us break down that Tier 1 vs Tier 2 barrier. Now do you recommend a nerf for the T2s or a buff for the T1s? Both? Meet them half way?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Tyme Xandr
Weyl Manufacturing
#100 - 2011-10-17 16:55:26 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:

All of these ships are still very capable against their intended targets of T1 cruisers. The only reason that they're not used is because they're obsoleted by the tier 2s.


Okay, so I am saying, let us break down that Tier 1 vs Tier 2 barrier. Now do you recommend a nerf for the T2s or a buff for the T1s? Both? Meet them half way?


No reason to nerf the current tier 2 BC's, we should work to bring the tier 1 BCs in line with them. Allowing for a different approach in each would be nice that compliments each other. For instance Drake is fleet missile boat, ferox should be gank blaster boat - not the garbage whatever the hell it tries to be currently.