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New [scratch] Tiericide the T1 Battlecruisers.

First post
Author
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-10-09 01:29:43 UTC
This is true, but a battlecruiser is at least somewhat easier to kill with a BS. BS doesn't stand a chance against a SC.
Quark Valhala
Deliverance.
Ocularis Inferno
#42 - 2011-10-09 18:46:41 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
This is true, but a battlecruiser is at least somewhat easier to kill with a BS. BS doesn't stand a chance against a SC.


Again look at price. A tengu should **** a bs... Thou pretty sure if you put a machariel, vindicator, bahlgorn, widdow or almost any other fancy bs in tengu price class i Think its one less tengu. Or it flies away
But now we Are talking about nerf Drake.
So lets forget about tengu. (Any way tengus Are always cloaky nulified fagot space ships)
And lets get argument for or against the Drake.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#43 - 2011-10-09 19:49:36 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Nerf the Drake. Nerf the Hurricane. Nerf all tier 2 BCs.

They're too common. They obsolete tier 1 BCs, cruisers and close-range HACs like the Deimos and Sacrilege. Nerf them to tier 1 levels and let's get some variety back, rather than just another tier 2 BC blob.


Here's a better idea.

use the tier 2 BCs as a baseline and buff the rest.


No, that's a worse idea. Tier 2 BCs already obsolete the Deimos, Sacrilege and all cruisers that aren't the Blackbird, and you want to make this situation worse? All that does is remove the "tier 2" from "tier 2 battlecruisers Online". Tier 2 battlecruisers are the problem, not the solution.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#44 - 2011-10-09 20:46:41 UTC
There are only 8 battle cruisers.

Take Minmatar for example, Cyclone and Hurricane. The Cyclone should be able to pull off a bigger tank than it does. Hurricane is fine as it is as a gun ship.

However, it is possible to have a bigger tank on a Hurricane and more damage than a Cyclone. This doesn't seem right. For more of a sand box effect, we should have more options, not be herded into 3-4 options when we could have 8.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Alen Dee
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2011-10-10 02:24:09 UTC
is it possible to look this problem from a differt angle : the trouble isn't really about the fact that the drake is really a good ship. But the fact that the others BC are really weak and useless. Even with exellent resists an armor tanker is a lot more easy to kill than a shield tanker because shields are a lot more easier to recharge.
We really have to think one more time to the benefits of the shield tanking, is it natural to be able to run a shield boost oversized?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#46 - 2011-10-10 04:01:06 UTC
Said that a few times, so have others and original post implies it. Blink

Now, what improvements do the others need?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2011-10-10 04:55:32 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Nerf the Drake. Nerf the Hurricane. Nerf all tier 2 BCs.

They're too common. They obsolete tier 1 BCs, cruisers and close-range HACs like the Deimos and Sacrilege. Nerf them to tier 1 levels and let's get some variety back, rather than just another tier 2 BC blob.


Here's a better idea.

use the tier 2 BCs as a baseline and buff the rest.


No, that's a worse idea. Tier 2 BCs already obsolete the Deimos, Sacrilege and all cruisers that aren't the Blackbird, and you want to make this situation worse? All that does is remove the "tier 2" from "tier 2 battlecruisers Online". Tier 2 battlecruisers are the problem, not the solution.


How exactly does buffing the diemost, sac etc etc make the situation worse?
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-10-10 06:03:57 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Nerf the Drake. Nerf the Hurricane. Nerf all tier 2 BCs.

They're too common. They obsolete tier 1 BCs, cruisers and close-range HACs like the Deimos and Sacrilege. Nerf them to tier 1 levels and let's get some variety back, rather than just another tier 2 BC blob.


Here's a better idea.

use the tier 2 BCs as a baseline and buff the rest.


No, that's a worse idea. Tier 2 BCs already obsolete the Deimos, Sacrilege and all cruisers that aren't the Blackbird, and you want to make this situation worse? All that does is remove the "tier 2" from "tier 2 battlecruisers Online". Tier 2 battlecruisers are the problem, not the solution.


How exactly does buffing the diemost, sac etc etc make the situation worse?


If you introduce a few of ships that obsolete a wide range of other ships it is easier to tone down the few that screwed things up than make a complete overhaul of several shipclasses.
By your logic we should boost each and every ship in eve in relation to the dramiel rather than nerf the dramiel itself.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#49 - 2011-10-10 08:53:05 UTC
Yeah, it's just the "no nerfs under any circumstances whatsoever" argument. Which has two main problems - firstly, that it leads to incredibly difficult balancing changes (oh look, we have to boost every frigate in the game instead of nerfing the Dramiel), and secondly, there's no bloody difference between, in this case, leaving the Dramiel be and boosting every other ship, and simply nerfing the Dramiel. Done properly, it leaves the balance of power the same in both cases, while it's much easier to do the job badly if you're attempting to change several dozen ships instead of just one.
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-10-10 11:18:16 UTC
Drake is fine, when a 30 man drake fleet ganks you its because they had 30 people shooting at you.

And if you think the drake is over powered go do a lvl 4 in one solo, see you in 3 hours.

To get any decent DPS out of it you have to kill your tank, and to get a good tank you have to kill your DPS sound balanced to me.
Arbiter Reborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-10-10 11:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arbiter Reborn
drake needs a re balance but you are incredibly incoherent

i think a few of the tier 2 bc's need a rebalance but as this is a drake thread:::


if you look at the missile line of caldari ships they tend to have rof/ 5% damage to ken, and a range bonus.

if you look at the caldari gun ships they tend to have range/damage and resist bonus.

the drake sticks out as being a missile ship with a resist bonus, bar the nighthawk and a scorp navy.

the mix of being able to do 750 dps with 80kehp and mwd scam web is overpowerd
the fact it can hit out to lockrange with 80kehp with mwd point is overpowerd.
the fact it can fit mwd, dual web, and still have 45k ehp without a dcII and still do 500 dps+ is overpowerd.

all other bc have to seriously sacrifice for tank or takle to get anywhere near these numbers

ferox is already a great ship with a strong tank and great damage with blasters, caldari dont need another powerful close range bc with a resist bonus. so get rid of the resist bonus. the drake would still be powerful without it. give it a range bonus and keep lock-range low.

battlecruisers generally have become far more popular due to the smaller battlefield because of lower speeds, medrange is now king speed is less important and missile drakes and hurricanes fill that role nicely. there is no longer a need for allot of the specialisation t2 offers, heavy assault ships are less useful now and i think people should have more incentives to use their sp. it would be nice to see ships like the cerb more used

I think tier 2 bc were the most heavy handedly introduced ship class in the game, they almost completely overshadow commandships even before t3. i dont understand why they wernt properly ballanced before iteration or why cs wernt peoperly boosted afterwards
Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-10-10 13:23:11 UTC

To be the dissenting voice here:

The Drake is not overpowered. It does low damage in comparison to other BCs, and is fairly slow. The trade off is good range and a sturdy tank.

The popularity of the drake centers around its value in gangs of kiting ships, or as an anchor in small skirmishes with shield logistics. But these styles of fleet are well known now and easily countered. Players complaining about the drake are simply not creative enough and too lazy to think of the counters themselves, or even watch videos and/or killboards where the answer is being put right in front of them.

There are plenty of ships in the game where balance is a serious issue. The drake on the other hand, is simply "working as intended". Don't try to fix what isn't broken.
Arbiter Reborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-10-10 14:43:38 UTC
Mirei Jun wrote:

To be the dissenting voice here:

The Drake is not overpowered. It does low damage in comparison to other BCs, and is fairly slow. The trade off is good range and a sturdy tank.

The popularity of the drake centers around its value in gangs of kiting ships, or as an anchor in small skirmishes with shield logistics. But these styles of fleet are well known now and easily countered. Players complaining about the drake are simply not creative enough and too lazy to think of the counters themselves, or even watch videos and/or killboards where the answer is being put right in front of them.

There are plenty of ships in the game where balance is a serious issue. The drake on the other hand, is simply "working as intended". Don't try to fix what isn't broken.


sorry but 750 dps with 80k ehp is pretty insane
Jenshae Chiroptera
#54 - 2011-10-10 15:49:55 UTC
Arbiter Reborn wrote:

sorry but 750 dps with 80k ehp is pretty insane


No it isn't! Lalalalala!!! Can't hear you! P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-10-10 17:08:00 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Nerf the Drake. Nerf the Hurricane. Nerf all tier 2 BCs.

They're too common. They obsolete tier 1 BCs, cruisers and close-range HACs like the Deimos and Sacrilege. Nerf them to tier 1 levels and let's get some variety back, rather than just another tier 2 BC blob.


Here's a better idea.

use the tier 2 BCs as a baseline and buff the rest.


This. Stop with the nerfs and start buffing things. Nerfing is the ez button, a crappy solution to people QQing. Incidentally, I'm not even sure why this thread exists, the PvE aspect of the game is pretty self-contained and shouldn't affect others in such a manner.
"If."
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#56 - 2011-10-10 17:17:16 UTC
The drake needs to remain a viable ship to run C2 sites and anoms. However, the other BCs should also be. I'm in the camp that the other BCs need a little lovin'.

Why nerf the drake when you can boost the harby?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#57 - 2011-10-10 17:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Nephilius wrote:
I'm not even sure why this thread exists, the PvE .


Cookie cutting. Anti-sandbox effects. Market skewed.

Edit:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
The drake needs to remain a viable ship to run C2 sites and anoms. However, the other BCs should also be. I'm in the camp that the other BCs need a little lovin'.

Why nerf the drake when you can boost the harby?


Side note: I finally made a fit that works for worm holes with Cyclone. I can do C2s and needs some help for combat sites in C3s, gets pretty hammered for Radars and Mags though. Can solo C3 grav and ladar.

That might change once I have more supporting modules and tweak it a bit.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2011-10-10 19:03:49 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Why would anyone think a drake is OP?

A drake is just multi function. You can either pull out a heavy tank with crappy dps, or good dps with a crappy tank.

If you balance it for tank and dps then the drake is just a typical ship with moderate tank and moderate dps.

A Tengu can pull out over 600 dps with an over 600 omni tank, and that's with standard heavy missiles.
It can pull out more dps with heavy assault missiles.

So, someone might be questioning right now "why are you comparing the tengu and the drake?"

Well, the drake is a battlecruiser that uses a passive shield tank, which most of us understand as being the heaviest tanks.
It's dps suffers from this tank though.

However, the tengu has much better range, much better dps, and a equal or better tank that is an ACTIVE tank.
This is better overall data than just about any tech 1 battleship.

I haven't even factored in sig radius. The tengu is a strategic CRUISER. It has the sig radius of a cruiser with better combined dps, tank, and range than most if not all tech 1 bs's.

Notice i'm saying better OVERALL data. There can be a t1 with a better tank, or better dps, or better range, but there isn't a t1 that is even removetly equal with all 3 areas.

Basically what I'm stating here is that tech 3 strategic cruisers are much better ships in tank, dps, and range than any battlecruiser, but yet, they're in a smaller class.

The drake just so happens to be the closest one of the bc's in at least tank.

IMO, all t1 battlecruisers need to be buffed in one way or another.

Kinda rediculous that a cruiser size ship is able to fit more dps/tank/range all at the same time.


What part of Tech 3 vs Tech 1 are you missing? The Tengu costs about 10 times as much as your tech 1 Battleship too.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#59 - 2011-10-10 20:26:43 UTC
Nephilius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Nerf the Drake. Nerf the Hurricane. Nerf all tier 2 BCs.

They're too common. They obsolete tier 1 BCs, cruisers and close-range HACs like the Deimos and Sacrilege. Nerf them to tier 1 levels and let's get some variety back, rather than just another tier 2 BC blob.


Here's a better idea.

use the tier 2 BCs as a baseline and buff the rest.


This. Stop with the boosts and start nerfing things. Boosting is the ez button, a crappy solution to people QQing.


I fixed your post. Honestly, it's far more accurate like this. Perpetual boosts and the subsequent cancer of power-creep occur because people are too scared of hurting people's feelings to be brave enough to make the right decision. Far easier to boost things and let the idiots think that boosting one ship isn't a relative nerf to all the rest.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-10-10 20:57:39 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Drakes are very good at pve, they're ok at pvp, if your battleship can't take one though you're doing something wrong like using hybrids



Fixed 4U