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Fix LP store!!!

Author
Linis Erens
Proposition Thirteen
#41 - 2011-10-15 02:07:13 UTC
Whilst the pricing of tags is effected by an awful lot of variables, there are certain tags that are a bit... odd. For example Federation Navy Fleet Colonel I, it doesn't drop in most level 5s (I've never seen more than 2 in any mission) and the level 4 mission with the most (enemies abound part 3 I believe) drops 9.

Past week of doing level 5s I have 225 Colonel II tags and 10 Colonel I tags. There seems to be a hole that at least one tag per faction falls into where it is extremely hard to acquire, at least for mission runners.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#42 - 2011-10-15 02:25:48 UTC
start running the tag missions then.

the reason people dont run them is it trashes their standings with the other races/factions.

If you are all joe farmer who refuses to leave the farm, wtf are you saving your standings for?

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Linis Erens
Proposition Thirteen
#43 - 2011-10-15 14:05:25 UTC
I personally don't really care about standing (although I'll prob boost Gallente standing before I hit -5), after all almost all level 5 missions are against opposing navies. But there are certain tags that seem to be near non existent in missions, Colonel I being one of them.
Goose99
#44 - 2011-10-15 14:07:13 UTC
Remove all tag trade ins, and replace with large increase in isk trade in. Isk sink and convenience in one.Bear
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#45 - 2011-10-15 21:32:33 UTC
Making LP store more dependent on tags means capsuleers end up being required to make decisions that have actual in game consequences. I like it.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-10-16 00:53:54 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Making LP store more dependent on tags means capsuleers end up being required to make decisions that have actual in game consequences. I like it.


There is a bit more complexity to it than just tag prices and items.

Example: You won't find 1MN Republic Fleet MWD/AB's up for sale. Tags are part of it but another part is the much larger availability of deadspace fittings due to easing of probe skills and the popularity of exploration.

As such, the prices on many of these modules have plumeted so low that even just LP values alone have problems competing in the market.

It's all part of that "system" folks talk about - a change to this game mechanic runs across a far wider range of areas than people may notice.

As for the LP store - it could use a good looking at. The formulas involved in pricing are very old and don't reflect many changes to the game over the years.

IMO - a more dynamic math model should be used. That which sells well becomes more expensive, that which doesn't becomes cheaper - but weighted also do to the availability of competing items (such as deadspace drops) and its relative value/effects as a component (near the top? More expensive/valuable. Near the bottom of all variants? less expensive).

"Balance" it but not in a way that most LP store users would like. Make it so that it is "self adjusting". So if competing items are added or removed from the game, it auto-corrects and stays "competitive" within each items niche.

I guess my idea here is "more upfront work" with less developer tweaks/maintenance as the game advances.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2011-10-16 01:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
Mocam wrote:
IMO - a more dynamic math model should be used.


ummm, don't we already have that ... withjout CCP having to introduce any more complex mathematical models. Eve has a fairly large and moderately dynamic economy, and mission runners are a part of that economy.

Any matari mission runner with half a brain realises that only some of their LP-store items are good value for effort (I mainly get RF stuff for my own use, along with starbase charters) and they diversify into mission running elsewhere where there are either better isk returns or they get access to particularly good high-margin items, or they diversify so they're not as dependent on hisec missions for their livelihood.

Others moan that "it's broken" and that CCP should fix it for them.

IMO we have a dynamic economy in EVE, so if you don't believe that something is treating you well enough then move on to find something that does. Don't like what RF offers you? Go give Caldari Navy a try and see whether you like them more. Lots and lots of options out there.


BTW "exploration is broken" too

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Running Clam
#48 - 2011-10-16 01:25:46 UTC
The complaining never ends.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#49 - 2011-10-16 05:29:12 UTC
The bigest tag cost I noticed after the agent changes was that 5 run bpo's now hand tag cost and high one's at that. Were as before 5 run bpo's hand no tags on them.Big smile

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#50 - 2011-10-16 05:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Zhilia Mann wrote:
orientall wrote:
Spineker, let's take small rep or ab from store, it costs 100 mil in tags and lp + isk is just small amount, and now u say that if reduce tags to let's say 10mil in cost, still make that mod not worth?


That's exactly right. When a similar or better deadspace rep or AB is common enough to compete on volume, no reduction in tag cost is going to bring the faction module into price parity.



This is true but then we would get are Deadspace cheaper or the store iteam starts looking like a great buy for the time being.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2011-10-16 10:18:06 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Mocam wrote:
IMO - a more dynamic math model should be used.


ummm, don't we already have that ... withjout CCP having to introduce any more complex mathematical models. Eve has a fairly large and moderately dynamic economy, and mission runners are a part of that economy.

Any matari mission runner with half a brain realises that only some of their LP-store items are good value for effort (I mainly get RF stuff for my own use, along with starbase charters) and they diversify into mission running elsewhere where there are either better isk returns or they get access to particularly good high-margin items, or they diversify so they're not as dependent on hisec missions for their livelihood.

Others moan that "it's broken" and that CCP should fix it for them.

IMO we have a dynamic economy in EVE, so if you don't believe that something is treating you well enough then move on to find something that does. Don't like what RF offers you? Go give Caldari Navy a try and see whether you like them more. Lots and lots of options out there.


BTW "exploration is broken" too


No we don't have a dynamic LP store structure.

What we have are roughly 2004 ideas on how the LP store should be laid out with fixed prices. LP costs, ISK costs, items to exchange...

It's all really old info and is fixed in what is required "NPC prices" style.

The math modeling I'm talking about would **** it from a fixed format to a self-adjusting price/exchange rate system vs how it currently is. Something more like how insurance works these days versus when you could make/get ships for less than the payout so insurance fraud became popular.

As such, changes to any other modules of the same type, which change where an item would be in relation to other items available in the game - would automatically recalculate what is required to get that item and keep it far more up to date than how it currently operates.

Yes some additional complexity but in an automated fashion that removes any real workload from hand-tweaking a portion of the game that has several broken pieces to it. (high-end BPC offerings, smartbombs/blueprints for them -- from zero movement to 1-2 every month or so).

If more options open up "of value" - more diversity will be presented and more things that aren't seen will be made available to the rest of the player base - in a competitive fashion.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#52 - 2011-10-16 11:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Starrakatt
True that a lot modules in LP stores are grossly overpriced in tag prices, like the already mentioned RF 1mn AB/MWD.

And while one of the major reason for that is competition from common drops in DED plexes and exploration, one the major reason is that smaller modules (which are often the offending items) ask for supposedly 'lower level' tags, which should be reasonably expected to drop in much more numbers than higher officer tags, like say, Sergent II or II VS General I tags.

Which does not happen, General I tags drop a lot more than Sergeant II tags... And while modules or BPC ask for relatively few General tags, literally hundreds are needed to get the smaller modules. Comparative rarity is what make some modules/BPC totally not worth it in any way conceivable.

I've once did the maths for a RF 1mn AB, and while its old data and can't quite remember the precises numbers, after getting the tags at average prices on market (lots of Sergeant I, II and II) I would have had to sell the ABs around 50m apiece just not to lose ISK, no profit at all, 0 ISK/LP, versus say, a 15m 1mn Gist AB. P

People may remember when CCP nerfed loot tables for missions last year, where they were supposed to replace t1 mods with Scrap Metal and more pirate tags (and I assume, more officer tags in faction missions)... We DID get a LOT of scrap metals, but no increase in tags whatsoever - Maybe that was where CP wanted to 'fix' the tag drop rate... Which they never implemented.

I can't answer that, I'm not on the dev team, but it would be nice for a Dev to tell us if the tag increase drop idea was just stored and forgotten or altogether trashed?

Just curious. Smile
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#53 - 2011-10-16 22:11:41 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Example: You won't find 1MN Republic Fleet MWD/AB's up for sale. Tags are part of it but another part is the much larger availability of deadspace fittings due to easing of probe skills and the popularity of exploration.

As such, the prices on many of these modules have plumeted so low that even just LP values alone have problems competing in the market.


The options are: don't try selling 1MN RF props for profit, or complain that the LP store is broken because you can't sell a useless item for profit.

What are the factors that affect the price of 1MN RF AB, for example? There's the LP, the ISK, the badges, the availability of similar or better modules on the market, and the demand for 1MN ABs overall.

Which factors push the market value of the 1MN RF AB up? Obviously, demand for 1MN ABs.

Which factors push the market value of the 1MN RF AB down? Obviously, the availability of similar or better modules.

So right there you have two options for "repairing" the "broken" price of 1MN RF ABs. We could drive up demand, e.g.: make frigates/destroyers more fun & desirable to fly, add a role for frigates in null sec sov, add a role for frigates/destroyers in blob, large/small fleet and gang fights, add more 1/10 and 2/10 DED sites, make L1 missions attractive, etc. Or reduce supply of competing modules, e.g.: replace/supplement propulsion module drops with something else.

One of those options involves significant changes to the Flying In Space portion of the game, namely the increased role for small craft in fleet fights. Imagine if a Titan couldn't hit a stationary frigate, regardless of remote tracking links applied to the titan or target painters applied to the frigate? Would rebalancing all weapons so they have difficulty hitting one ship size down and find it near impossible to hit two ship sizes down, have an impact on the desirability of small ships in fleet combat? Imagine if your battleship could rarely hit straight-line incoming frigates, with the role of frigate destruction being filled by cruisers and destroyers?

On the other hand, there are factors which affect the LP store price, such as the availability of tags. Now say, for example, a particular module required a small number of valuable tags, and that module was popular with people flying speed/sig tanked ships, and it was possible to sell that module for a profit buying those valuable tags. That would push the price of those tags up. Now if those tags were also used for the 1MN RF AB, the value of the other module would mean it is no longer viable to sell the 1MN RF AB - not because the LP store is broken, but because the tags are better used for acquiring the more profitable module.

Now I'm aware that you picked an example at random, but for any module that is "broken" in the LP store, there are more ways of "fixing" it than changing the LP store.

When a better AB is available for 15M ISK, what price point should the RF AB be available for?
Sunviking
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-10-17 11:16:11 UTC
Hi,

I do not think LP stores need fixing - the reason tag prices keep going up is because people don't want to hit their faction standings by getting tags through missions, restricting the supply in market.

I am perfectly happy to see my Gallente/Minmatar standing get hit on Enemies Abound if it means i can get hold of valuable tags. The faction standings hit is part of the downside of missioning as a career.

What needs to happen, if anything, is that there needs to be more missions where you are able to get hold of the tags as loot (such as Enemies Abound), and if people don't like getting standings hits, then tough luck, find an item ito redeem in LP store that does not require Tags. This would increase the potential supply of Tags to the market.

- Sun
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2011-10-17 11:48:32 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
When a better AB is available for 15M ISK, what price point should the RF AB be available for?
…and as part of deciding that, you need to consider this: even at that price point, what would make people buy it?
Ynot Eyob
Safety Set To Red
#56 - 2011-10-17 12:24:54 UTC
I run alot of minmatar RF and Krusal Tribe missions to. And yes the LP store sucks now.

We rented an office just after missions patch for 30m a month, 1 month after it was 179m saying ALOT have moved into this system to do missions. Not only that, you exspect to BUY tags on the market, while if you killed Amarr you wouldnt have this problem but collected the tags. So many dont wana do faction missions due faction lose.. Tags goes up in prise.

Republic Warp Distruptur are still worth selling, if you dont buy tags for insane ammount on the market.

You first answer in this topic was perfect. I cant see what should be broken, your compeeting with faction warfare LP who can buy the same for half the ammount of LP. Find another agent, and there are other LVL 5 agents in lowsec....

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#57 - 2011-10-17 12:50:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
When a better AB is available for 15M ISK, what price point should the RF AB be available for?
…and as part of deciding that, you need to consider this: even at that price point, what would make people buy it?

Well what people wat is more expensive = better. Why pay more for less?

Mara Rinn wrote:
Making LP store more dependent on tags means capsuleers end up being required to make decisions that have actual in game consequences. I like it.

Yes, the consequences being that half the items in the LP store may as well be removed from the game. Great!! Or ..?
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-10-18 04:14:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
When a better AB is available for 15M ISK, what price point should the RF AB be available for?
…and as part of deciding that, you need to consider this: even at that price point, what would make people buy it?


The problem is a bit more than what the discussion seems to be touching on and I do apologize for not being very clear so I'll try a bit better.

LP stores are a major ISK sink according to how CCP wishes it to operate. Yet many of the options in them aren't real options at all and others are flat out broken due to changes in the game over time.

An easier example than the AB's and MWD's...

option 1 - Tempest Fleet Issue
- 600k LP, 0 isk, 1 x Tempest, 1 x UUC
option 2 -Tempest Fleet Issue Blueprint (1 copy)
- 500k LP, 200m ISK
option 3 - Tempest Fleet issue Blueprint (1 copy)
- 500k LP, 0 ISK, boatload of different tags including 2 rare ones - 1 of which hasn't been traded in Jita for over a year.

For an ISK sink model, you'd want option 2 above to be the most popular but it's not - the top option is. Also options 2 is exceedingly rarely exercised and option 3... Just a guess but probably no more than 10 times since LP stores were put in the game.

Back in 2005 - the value was around 1 billion isk on the market. In 2006, down to 400 mill on a BPC. In 2009 you could get a partially fit version of the ship for around 450 mill. Today? ...

Tossing aside costs and values... all that stuff - just look at availability. IN 2005 time frames, decently ME/PE researched BP's were rare. Today - not so rare so production of the "base" ship is cheaper so the overall value of getting that "poorly researched" BP to make one is pretty low compared to a straight trade-in.

Trade-in's aren't "ISK sinks". They do work the economy a bit but are not a sink.

It's outmoded and so are many other models across the factions. The system could use a revamp if for nothing else than to get that isk sink functionality brought back up to date.

As for tags: I'm not bothered by them too much. All but "named" tags are obtainable by the players and the market decides how much they are worth.

The only real thing I'd see as a potential change would be reversing the current order - low quantity of lower tier tags, climbing for higher tier - over to higher quantity of lower tiers with reducing quantities of the higher tier ones.

Then allow "over spending" - so it goes from "168 sergeant II" to "168 sergeant II or higher" so someone can "over spend" using Colonel tags instead of sergeant - or named tags to replace the highest level ones.

This removes many of the "no use" named tags - they fall within their faction type. As well as eliminating issues where someone doesn't get a type of tag anymore due to "moving beyond them" - if they choose. All the tags have value and rares are of high value, even if they aren't used directly.


tl;dr - I still see the system as messed up. both from CCP's intended use of it as well as from the player's side. If it's going to be corrected, do it with a formula based system instead of "fixed costs" so it will be more resilient about changes in the game.
Sassaniak
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#59 - 2011-10-19 04:40:32 UTC
It interests me in how many people are defending the lp stores current incarnation, and how many more are defending the current tag cost structure. a little research on the old forums shows that this has been discussed at great length before, and to a slightly different conclusion, (one of the main differences being a more verbose OP).

The OP's spelling, it seems, is a good indicator of the typical responses one may receive.

The previous threads about this subject point to a problem with the tag requirements for frigate class mods. rather then isk cost of said tags. (although that was a part of it)

A single Republic Fleet 200mm Autocannon costs ;
15,750 LP,
6,300,000 isk
1 x 200mm AutoCannon I
78 x Imperial Navy Sergeant Insignia I
98 x Imperial Navy Sergeant Insignia II
118 x Imperial Navy Sergeant Insignia III


This translates to a tag cost of (current Jita)
78 x Imperial Navy Sergeant Insignia I = 1 x 873,000 or 68,156,451.48 isk
98 x Imperial Navy Sergeant Insignia II = 1 x 29,000 or 2,842,000 isk
118 x Imperial Navy Sergeant Insignia III = 1 x 300,000 or 35,402,124 isk

for a total of 106,400,575.48 just in tag costs alone.

(these numbers are not a true reflection of tag costs, but a good indicator. true tag costs are higher as i took the lowest priced tag regardless of quantity available)

Looking at the NPC buy orders for tags, they follow a progression in tag price
Sergeant I is worth 20k
Sergeant II is worth 25k
Sergeant III is worth 30k

Which would seem to reflect a different drop structure.

However, I am more interested in the structure of the LP store.

Why are the same seven tags used for every module and bpc?
When there are 17 total tags (ammatar are also used in this lp store if i recall right, giving an additional 17 tags to be used)
Shouldn't Frigate class weapons use the most common dropped tag in faction missions (even if in bulk) so that FW missioners can use them? or are they supposed to be a 100 mil rarity?

Or, because i am not a FW person, and i dont do faction missions, am i just wrong about how many tags drop (and of what kind drop) in an average mission that the prices are justified on a frigate class module?

...............................................................................

Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed.

I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#60 - 2011-10-19 10:20:30 UTC
I find it amusing that some people think that the LP store item costs wouldn't plummet due to it costing less to acquire. If the item is cheaper to get it will also be cheaper to buy. You will not make more ISK / LP. If anything it will be a bigger pain because it will be much easier to saturate the market and have people undercutting the hell out of you, requiring much more babysitting.