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Crime & Punishment

 
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The reality of the goon freighter ganking in Uedema and neighboring systems.

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Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#321 - 2012-09-19 19:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Buck Futz
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
No no no no and NO!!

Please keep hauling dozens billions of isk in freighters without escort, dozens billions of isk in T1 untanked haulers afk auto piloting and above all, please continue to haul billions of isk in form of plex with your T1 crappy frig.

You can't educate idiots, but they can provide you some entertainment.


HAHA. When miners were getting ganked because they were stupid, you were quite outspoken in the urgent need for, and righteousness of Exhumer buffs.

Now when freighter pilots are getting killed off, "LOL, they so stupid." Roll

Watch carebears eat their own.

Pathetic.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#322 - 2012-09-19 19:14:04 UTC
Elliot Plaude wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Sure people come on the forums and talk a lot of smack, and that may make it look like a common thing... but if HS ganking of freighters were so common, a successful gank wouldn't be newsworthy and players would change their behavior. As it is, suicide ganking is a relatively rare thing.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=system_detail&sys_id=2769

40 freighters. 1 system. 1 month. Not that rare really.

What Tippia said.

It's pretty rare. These goon incidents are highlighted by their propaganda machine... and they may throw the curve a bit, but for the average freighter pilot setting autopilot from jita to rens or amarr or something, it's a pretty safe bet they are going to be fine.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#323 - 2012-09-19 19:52:02 UTC
Go there, camp and shoot the wrecks as soon as they pop them.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#324 - 2012-09-19 19:56:38 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Seminole Sun wrote:

I agree... if you're carrying 10 bil in implants and you don't have an escort, you probably should be shot down. But I also believe that there needs to be SOME way to prevent ganks (even full grief ganks). Maybe that's having a t3 boosting alt following me to screw the math up. Maybe that's a logi constantly repping me. The problem with the bumping is that there's no way to stop the bumping (and, as I've said, it's almost by definition a griefing mechanic).


You can't prevent full grief gank. No matter how much tank you fit on a ship, if something can lock on it, it's over. It can be destroyed. You can bring hunderd of fast locking ship if you don't care about the cost. Only an instant warp would matter at that point and this would be a broken mecanic. You can prevent all ganks for profit. They're are many way. Full grief is impossible to prevent.


What is your point?

If you are getting grief ganked (i.e. where people are just blowing up your ship even knowing they will not make any isk doing so), then you did something to deserve it. No corp/alliance can keep grief-ganking indefinitely, as you can purposely fly hard-to-destroy ships to maximize there losses.

If you are getting ganked for profit, its because you created the situation in which you COULD be ganked for profit... .so again, you reap what you sow.


It was an answer to the quote. He ask for a way to prevent any ganking. I just showed it's impossible. You will never be 100% gank proof is someone wants you unless you never undock. Unless CCP make invincible ship, there will always be a way to gank you at some point. That was the point of this single post.
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#325 - 2012-09-19 19:57:09 UTC
William Walker wrote:
Also in Niarja. All is going according to plan.


FA scrub things hes part of goons divine plan, you are a pawn at most.
angel 70
angel's70 Corp
#326 - 2012-09-19 19:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: angel 70
There are also players who use the auto pilot, to make the effort at hand fly from gate to gate, and they succumb to this fate.

this can happen behind each gate and if you do not react quickly then ....

ccp says, an ongoing push away corresponds to the eula.
as long as the attacker, eventually loses his ship.

not fly alone, trying to warp inst by freighter to webb,
more can not be done Sad

should it 24/7 camp long, and let me buy it at the same price, you dictate the gate camper.

therefore: 1 to 0 for the goonis, they dominate so the market
;)
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#327 - 2012-09-19 20:02:59 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Yes, the ship calculates your alignment based on its direction of movement. The orientation of your ships graphics model is completely irrelevant to your alignment.

*edit* The game attempts to orient your ships graphics model to match the alignment of your ship, but does so at a reduced rate to make the graphics appear fluid. This is why you often find large ships warping sideways and orienting in warp, especially when they get webbed to warp.


What he said.
He explained it much better than I could, using my crappy english.

So again, bring a minmatar recon to counter bumping .

It will not save you if the gank fleet is waiting on the gate
PI Maker
Doomheim
#328 - 2012-09-19 20:03:01 UTC
Samahiel Sotken wrote:
PI Maker wrote:

you do realize they can just shoot the slinger first, right?


You're an idiot. The major limitation to DPS output in a gank is time before CONCORD responds. Why would a gank squad ruin a perfectly clear gate to kill a webber? You now have to hold the freighter in position, get an equal number of pilots as what it took to kill the webber to pull CONCORD simultaneously, and wait 15 minutes for everyone's GCC to cool off or more pilots to show up since you probably lost some DPS you needed for the freighter.

As goons we have a dedicated jabber room, fleet, and mumble channel for this with people on standby and we still have timing problems or manpower problems at times. Most other pirates aren't coordianted enough to pull this off, they're looking for targets of opportunity and you've seriously decreased the opportunity.

you're a goon, so pot v. kettle, etc

its odd that you point this out, since earlier in the thread using a noob pilot to plink the freighter was described. i'm not sure what the difference is in this situation. i freely admit i'm no ganking expert, which is easy to tell looking at my previous posts in this thread. you know, the ones where i'm looking for advice on the topic.

Are you saying that the goons are incapable of handling slingshotting? it seems doable, but i'm still pretty new to all this. You would be shooting him "first" by a second or less. if i understand slinging correctly, the slinger has to decloak first, wait for the freighter to decloak, lock him, and engage the webs in close timing with his align speed. there appears to be time for a lock and jam or, alternately, bumping the freighter. you might even consider popping the slinger in a system before your gank point. The freighter would end up losing the slinger while the freighter was on his way to an exit gate and have to decide what to do, jump the gate or warp to a station. Either way he'd be doing it with full align time. Or you could pop the slinger while the freighter is starting warp and catch him at the other end in the same situation, jump or station. Logging off doesn't appear to work since you guys are agressing it and scanning them down.

So what's the issue all seeing and all knowing Trash Heap?
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#329 - 2012-09-19 20:29:43 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Seminole Sun wrote:

I agree... if you're carrying 10 bil in implants and you don't have an escort, you probably should be shot down. But I also believe that there needs to be SOME way to prevent ganks (even full grief ganks). Maybe that's having a t3 boosting alt following me to screw the math up. Maybe that's a logi constantly repping me. The problem with the bumping is that there's no way to stop the bumping (and, as I've said, it's almost by definition a griefing mechanic).


You can't prevent full grief gank. No matter how much tank you fit on a ship, if something can lock on it, it's over. It can be destroyed. You can bring hunderd of fast locking ship if you don't care about the cost. Only an instant warp would matter at that point and this would be a broken mecanic. You can prevent all ganks for profit. They're are many way. Full grief is impossible to prevent.


I may have misspoken. I agree that full grief ganks are just going to happen. My point was that I ought to be able to do SOMETHING to keep them from being a slam dunk (A T3 boosting alt probably is the BEST way to accomplish this... it throws their math off completely and it's far from obvious what I'm doing).
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2012-09-19 23:49:46 UTC
What is a 'full grief' gank?

Hell, I ganked hundreds of Exhumers without expecting to make a profit at all. But I did it anyway, because the miner lost a lot more than I did, and they get so mad, and sometimes quit the game.

But full grief? Is that like when you have to use 5 Tornados to kill a single Mackinaw, so the miner loses 200 Million and the gankers lose half a Billion?

Sounds about as fun as dropping a bowling ball on your own foot.

Guess its still 'possible' - but gankers are a bit smarter than the average carebear and will simply find other targets.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#331 - 2012-09-20 02:19:28 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
What is a 'full grief' gank?

Hell, I ganked hundreds of Exhumers without expecting to make a profit at all. But I did it anyway, because the miner lost a lot more than I did, and they get so mad, and sometimes quit the game.

But full grief? Is that like when you have to use 5 Tornados to kill a single Mackinaw, so the miner loses 200 Million and the gankers lose half a Billion?

Sounds about as fun as dropping a bowling ball on your own foot.

Guess its still 'possible' - but gankers are a bit smarter than the average carebear and will simply find other targets.


I was using the term loosely to describe your example actually. A gank in which you are CERTAIN that you will lose more isk than you'll make by a fair margin (for some definition of fair). It's a mentality that I myself don't understand but it's one I recognize is out there.

There's very little that can be done to stop it (although I have limited pity for people that didn't AT LEAST fit a couple shield extenders on their exhumers to make it a bit less likely).

Personally, the only think about freighter ganking that has my hackles up is the riskless bumping. It's nearly 100% a grief mechanic and it needs to be removed (but replaced!!) so that there's still a plausible capacity for hi-sec ganking.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2012-09-20 02:20:12 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
BillyBanter wrote:
Once the sec status of the alt character is too low, they replace it with a new one.


Which is a bannable offence if they're recycling them.


What? Deleting a character is bannable?


Bananable.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#333 - 2012-09-20 02:38:25 UTC
Seminole Sun wrote:
Personally, the only think about freighter ganking that has my hackles up is the riskless bumping. It's nearly 100% a grief mechanic and it needs to be removed (but replaced!!) so that there's still a plausible capacity for hi-sec ganking.

I'm sure it can be arranged to have bumping removed but no replacement mechanic put in.

Forward, onto a safer highsec, freighters of Empire unite !

You have only your lossmails to lose !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2012-09-20 03:31:57 UTC
Honestly, I don't think its the bumping that really has people upset, though.

I imagine it can be annoying, but its been around for the entire history of the game.
Sure 'bumping' is riskless, but there isn't really any straightforward benefit or reward either.
The victim can log out, attempt to manually realign, or simply ignore them until they get bored.

The reason I'm dubious is that people only seem to complain about it in the context of freighters being killed.
But bumping for the purpose of killing a freighter in highsec is 100% ok.

I think high-sec freighters dying in large numbers is exactly what EVE needs right now.

-1 to the OP, but +1 to the actions that inspired it.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2012-09-20 03:57:25 UTC
Seminole Sun wrote:

I was using the term loosely to describe your example actually. A gank in which you are CERTAIN that you will lose more isk than you'll make by a fair margin (for some definition of fair). It's a mentality that I myself don't understand but it's one I recognize is out there.

There's very little that can be done to stop it (although I have limited pity for people that didn't AT LEAST fit a couple shield extenders on their exhumers to make it a bit less likely).

Personally, the only think about freighter ganking that has my hackles up is the riskless bumping. It's nearly 100% a grief mechanic and it needs to be removed (but replaced!!) so that there's still a plausible capacity for hi-sec ganking.


I've always put ganks into 3 categories.

I) 'Profitable' (you end up with more ISK than when you started after factoring ship costs)
II) 'For Tears' (you lose significantly less than the victim, but take a loss.)
III) 'Rage' ganking (you lose more ISK than the victim)

Hauler ganking almost exclusively falls into the first category.
Exhumer ganking generally fell under the second. (although until the boomerang nerf and Aug 8 buffs, it could be profitable)

Currently Exhumer ganking falls mostly between the second and third category.
Third category doesn't really exist because gankers possess a modicum of common sense.
After all, spending 500M ISK to kill a 200M ISK ship = not a combo.

Sad thing is, CCP Soundwave spouted off about this in the Fairy Tale threadnaught - stating that ALL high-sec ganking should be in the third category, and the game should be balanced around this concept. ("Should cost the gankers more than the victim....") Of course, as we've seen since August 8, it led to Exhumer ganking to almost completely disappearing overnight.

Mission accomplished, Soundwave. Sure, its still 'possible', you ass. But only If you are stupid and enjoy throwing away massive amounts of ISK. Gankers aren't stupid.

And freighters became the next target of choice. Unfortunately, solo-operators like myself are priced out of that particular market....
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#336 - 2012-09-20 04:23:31 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Sad thing is, CCP Soundwave spouted off about this in the Fairy Tale threadnaught - stating that ALL high-sec ganking should be in the third category, and the game should be balanced around this concept. ("Should cost the gankers more than the victim....") Of course, as we've seen since August 8, it led to Exhumer ganking to almost completely disappearing overnight.

Mission accomplished, Soundwave. Sure, its still 'possible', you ass. But only If you are stupid and enjoy throwing away massive amounts of ISK. Gankers aren't stupid.

And freighters became the next target of choice. Unfortunately, solo-operators like myself are priced out of that particular market....

Don't worry, soon everyone will be priced out of it, since it's "too profitable" as in, you know "profitable".

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ghazu
#337 - 2012-09-20 04:38:32 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Elliot Plaude wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Sure people come on the forums and talk a lot of smack, and that may make it look like a common thing... but if HS ganking of freighters were so common, a successful gank wouldn't be newsworthy and players would change their behavior. As it is, suicide ganking is a relatively rare thing.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=system_detail&sys_id=2769

40 freighters. 1 system. 1 month. Not that rare really.

What Tippia said.

It's pretty rare. These goon incidents are highlighted by their propaganda machine... and they may throw the curve a bit, but for the average freighter pilot setting autopilot from jita to rens or amarr or something, it's a pretty safe bet they are going to be fine.


Right? I hate these moronic goon alt ops stop posting.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#338 - 2012-09-20 04:56:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If your freighter gets bumped while aligning, it will not warp untill it can finish aligning. If you warp it often, you can completely hold him there indefinitely. Webbing him will only make him slower which has barely any incidence. Popping the webber also start the countdown for CONCORD response. The precious seconds wasted there are seconds you cannot use to apply dps on the freighter.

So again, why waste time popping a webber when you can completely prevent the warp?


Not going to get into whatever **** argument is going on here: but capital sized ships can enter warp without being 100% aligned. This should include freighters.

They do have to be somewhat in alignment though from my understanding. I've certainly never slung into warp while facing the complete opposite direction from where I was aiming, but I have done it from a good ways away from alignment creating this funny looking curving warp.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#339 - 2012-09-20 05:03:03 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Elliot Plaude wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Sure people come on the forums and talk a lot of smack, and that may make it look like a common thing... but if HS ganking of freighters were so common, a successful gank wouldn't be newsworthy and players would change their behavior. As it is, suicide ganking is a relatively rare thing.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=system_detail&sys_id=2769

40 freighters. 1 system. 1 month. Not that rare really.

What Tippia said.

It's pretty rare. These goon incidents are highlighted by their propaganda machine... and they may throw the curve a bit, but for the average freighter pilot setting autopilot from jita to rens or amarr or something, it's a pretty safe bet they are going to be fine.


Right? I hate these moronic goon alt ops stop posting.

Yah... everyone knows Tippia is a goon alt... duh...

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Ghazu
#340 - 2012-09-20 05:17:57 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Elliot Plaude wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Sure people come on the forums and talk a lot of smack, and that may make it look like a common thing... but if HS ganking of freighters were so common, a successful gank wouldn't be newsworthy and players would change their behavior. As it is, suicide ganking is a relatively rare thing.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=system_detail&sys_id=2769

40 freighters. 1 system. 1 month. Not that rare really.

What Tippia said.

It's pretty rare. These goon incidents are highlighted by their propaganda machine... and they may throw the curve a bit, but for the average freighter pilot setting autopilot from jita to rens or amarr or something, it's a pretty safe bet they are going to be fine.


Right? I hate these moronic goon alt ops stop posting.

Yah... everyone knows Tippia is a goon alt... duh...

I thought Tippia is just an "informed" poster.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984