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Neutral logi on station.

Author
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#1 - 2012-09-14 12:41:01 UTC
So I am trying to get my head wrapped around what I just witnessed. If a neutral logi is repping a war target before anyone aggresses it, he will only get aggression against the ship that the wt engages, but if he starts give reps after the war target is engaged by multiple targets he will get aggression against everything that is shooting at the war target. Is that correct. If not could some please explain it to me? Thank you.
eddie valvetino
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-09-14 12:46:22 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
So I am trying to get my head wrapped around what I just witnessed. If a neutral logi is repping a war target before anyone aggresses it, he will only get aggression against the ship that the wt engages, but if he starts give reps after the war target is engaged by multiple targets he will get aggression against everything that is shooting at the war target. Is that correct. If not could some please explain it to me? Thank you.


working as intended
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#3 - 2012-09-14 13:01:24 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
So I am trying to get my head wrapped around what I just witnessed. If a neutral logi is repping a war target before anyone aggresses it, he will only get aggression against the ship that the wt engages, but if he starts give reps after the war target is engaged by multiple targets he will get aggression against everything that is shooting at the war target. Is that correct. If not could some please explain it to me? Thank you.


If a neut logi reps pilot A, the logi is now shootable by the WTs of pilot A and anyone pilot A is currently aggressed with.

Anyone pilot A aggresses or anyone that aggresses pilot A while the logi is repping pilot A will also be able to aggress the logi.

Make sense?

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance

Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#4 - 2012-09-14 16:19:21 UTC
So why the heck do ppl complain about them if they are a viable target for everyone pretty much as soon as the fight starts?
Doddy
Excidium.
#5 - 2012-09-14 18:07:10 UTC
Because people are dumb and like to complain about things. None of this is new by the way "neutral logi" has always been a viable target. The main issue people have is that the logi has no agression so can dock if it does get attacked and then undock and rep again.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-09-14 18:27:21 UTC
Doddy wrote:
The main issue people have is that the logi has no agression so can dock if it does get attacked and then undock and rep again.

This^

It heavily screws over people who don't have their own logi, because all it takes is one or two cycles to totaly turn the tables.

Logis can also be a bit difficult to catch and being unable to preimptively nuke them on a gate or undock without getting CONCORD-to-the-knee kinda sucks.
lanyaie
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#7 - 2012-09-14 18:47:09 UTC
lulz highsec pvp

Spaceprincess

People who put passwords on char bazaar Eveboards are the worst.

Tea2theBag
Lonetrek Salvage and Scrap
BLACKFLAG.
#8 - 2012-09-14 18:52:34 UTC
lanyaie wrote:
lulz highsec pvp


Inb4 capitals.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-09-15 01:32:58 UTC
The main complaint about them isn't that they can or can't be shot, the issue is that they don't get aggression, so can dock up as soon as they're shot, undock with full shields again, and only miss about two cycles.

This makes them very hard to kill.
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#10 - 2012-09-15 16:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tysinger
I have a GREAT idea....


Train your own FUCKIN Logi...YAY





though I do not have any myself.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-09-15 22:44:29 UTC
Tysinger wrote:
I have a GREAT idea....


Train your own FUCKIN Logi...YAY





though I do not have any myself.

Still doesn't change the fact that being able to participate in combat and not get an agro timer is stupid.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-09-15 22:45:58 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Tysinger wrote:
I have a GREAT idea....


Train your own FUCKIN Logi...YAY





though I do not have any myself.

Still doesn't change the fact that being able to participate in combat and not get an agro timer is stupid.


Logis don't aggro anything so how can they get an aggro timer? What?

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Gary Bell
Herp Inc.dot
Darwinism.
#13 - 2012-09-16 14:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gary Bell
There are alot of other issues with the system aswell.

-Nuet logi one reps his alt who is at war with WT1 and WT2. WT1 and 2 shoot logi. Logi docks and comes back out in second fully pimped PVP ships and begins to blap. ( Funniest thing you will see is oh a Moa with logi repping my wt. Pew pew pew oh he docked. Oh snap Golem poof 2 volleyed Command ship.. ) Those who enjoy this type of pvp will often have several toons that are fully skilled that they will use to bait aggro. I have personally fought Snatch victory back in the day with this tactic. They though oh 3 man corp. Well we had 4 different corps with about 17 Nuet logi between us, most of which were able to switch to faction pimp battleships. Needless to say 17 Bs and 2 Cmd ships later they left.. Wondering how they got no kills...

-Prob 2. Nuet logi is gets pew pewed. Second logi undocks and they begin to circle jerk, and neither die.

Nuet logi is a big issue in highsec that makes even the worst multiboxer very very hard to kill even by a small gang. It is an issue that needs to be looked at, mostly the aggro mechanics. Still though the issue will always remain about what to do when the logis rep each other.

I havent looked to close at the crimewatch changes but it will be cool to see how things change..

NINJA EDIT

Logi taking aggro will also help in low sec where some like to sit on station repping there arty fit Machs who blap anything coming at them and when they get into trouble they dock the Battleship in the carrier and warp off. At least now the carrier will be at risk if the group is ready to kill it...
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#14 - 2012-09-16 17:17:41 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
So why the heck do ppl complain about them if they are a viable target for everyone pretty much as soon as the fight starts?

Almost all of the complaints other than "Logistics ships should not be able to dock while repping" are people either complaining about how they were dumb and lost a fight or complaining because they didn't actually know you can shoot neutral logistics (which is actually a very common misconception among people who live in nullsec).
Pipa Porto
#15 - 2012-09-17 02:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The main complaint about them isn't that they can or can't be shot, the issue is that they don't get aggression, so can dock up as soon as they're shot, undock with full shields again, and only miss about two cycles.

This makes them very hard to kill.


Their ability to Dock has nothing to do with their neutrality and is a factor in any fight on any station or gate in any segment of space.

So the real complaint about neutral RR is "I lost because I underestimated my enemy's ability to bring reinforcements" or "I was promised an XvX fight and my enemy cheated."

Basically, the only advantage that having your Logi pilots neutral provides is the ability to reduce the effectiveness of your enemy's use of Local as an intel tool.

As for an easy fix for Logi's docking up: Stop fighting on Stations.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#16 - 2012-09-17 10:09:29 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
So why the heck do ppl complain about them if they are a viable target for everyone pretty much as soon as the fight starts?

Because logis have decent tanks, will typically be some distance from the undock and can dock instantly as soon as they look like they are taking too much damage.

CCP talked up transferred combat aggression (the 60 sec "can't jump because of blah" timer) some time back in Crimewatch but it seems to have died a death (unlike neutral logis)
whaynethepain
#17 - 2012-09-17 10:55:13 UTC
Well, I have only given reps in nul-sec, I use a cruiser and carrier to rep, but I do see the issue.

Your high-sec logi is getting involved in aggressions and not getting an aggression timer.

The logi may be on your KM when you died cos he had to warp off, but pfft. will they rep you less?

If I gave my neighbour a big armoured jacket and a scope for his rifle, and he went at someone, I would get aggro from the law, for example.

Anyhow, not really my thing, just saying arming someone is a form of aggression.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.

Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-09-17 12:58:11 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Basically, the only advantage that having your Logi pilots neutral provides is the ability to reduce the effectiveness of your enemy's use of Local as an intel tool.

As for an easy fix for Logi's docking up: Stop fighting on Stations.


Yes, Ruby, I am aware there are counters and I'm aware that proper intel work should reveal the logi beforehand. It's not a great system, but you fight the best you can under the conditions given to you.

Let's be real here, though. Stop fighting on stations? The problem is similar on gates, too. Not the same, as they can still be caught on the other side if you control that side of a gate, but definatly very similar. Dude, I know you're an intelligent, insightful, experienced forum-goer, don't be like that. We take our fights where we can get them, and that's often on a gate or a station. Saying don't fight on a station to us is like us telling you not to cyno in motherships. It's not as common as our detractors might thing, but sometimes it's exactly the tool for the job.
Pipa Porto
#19 - 2012-09-17 16:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Basically, the only advantage that having your Logi pilots neutral provides is the ability to reduce the effectiveness of your enemy's use of Local as an intel tool.

As for an easy fix for Logi's docking up: Stop fighting on Stations.


Yes, Ruby, I am aware there are counters and I'm aware that proper intel work should reveal the logi beforehand. It's not a great system, but you fight the best you can under the conditions given to you.

Let's be real here, though. Stop fighting on stations? The problem is similar on gates, too. Not the same, as they can still be caught on the other side if you control that side of a gate, but definatly very similar. Dude, I know you're an intelligent, insightful, experienced forum-goer, don't be like that. We take our fights where we can get them, and that's often on a gate or a station. Saying don't fight on a station to us is like us telling you not to cyno in motherships. It's not as common as our detractors might thing, but sometimes it's exactly the tool for the job.


First off, there are two very separate issues, mostly conflated due to a number of people in HS not knowing anything about the mechanics of the space they live in (the number of people who don't know you can shoot the "neutral" Logi is astounding).

The neutrality of Logis is the same as the "problem" of Local not showing you who's in the next system (or sitting on a Titan bridge). It simply allows people to hide their reserves. As it happens, it's a pretty good method of hiding your reserves (hard-ish to detect and allowing a very quick response) and really convenient (just undock). It's an entirely separate issue from Logi not getting aggression timers, and an issue that really boils down to a variant of the "I got Blobbed" dance.


Now, the Logi Aggro Timer issue is much more interesting. The ability for Logistics ships to disengage at will in certain situations is a significant advantage.

That said, Logis die on gates and on stations in Lowsec and Nullsec all the time. Other ships die in fights on stations and on gates in Lowsec and Nullsec all the time. Logi is often involved in those fights (hell, sometimes the Logi ship involved on station has Capital Reps and allows the targeted ship to refit for resists). I don't see why Highsec has such a problem with the ability of Logi to disengage at will.

Don't think I don't see where you're coming from though. It's annoying seeing a Logi/Carrier/Orca undock and save your enemy's bacon (just as it's annoying to hear a panicky "Cyno Up" on comms in the middle of a fight). But that's the nature of operating on their home turf where they've spent time preparing the field to give themselves an advantage. Taking your fights where you can get them means you also have to be prepared for the disadvantages that allowing your enemy the home field advantage bring. Fighting on station also means that you only have 60s to kill your enemy from the time he realizes he's loosing. EVE is full of examples of the defender in any given encounter has an advantage.

I didn't say that not fighting on stations was the only fix. Just an easy one. "Simple Solution" would probably have been a better phrase, both for alliterative reasons and accuracy reasons. Yes, I was being flip but this issue gets brought up so often that sometimes I don't feel like explaining the whole thing.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Fictional Hero
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-09-17 19:03:31 UTC
Cant wait for Neut RRing idiots to get aggression. The amount of dead Logi ships will blot out the Eve Gate.
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