These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP Deconstructs EVE Online's Microtransaction Missteps

First post
Author
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-10-12 12:01:32 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
It all depends on what money you make, I used to think that monacle was expensive but not any longer. It would be easy to buy 4 plex and trade it for AUR then buy it.

The NEX store has potential for great things if done in the right way.

I am all for cheap items and luxury items just like in real life. Some can afford, some cant.



Himlar, is that you?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

CCP Caedmon
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2011-10-14 14:20:05 UTC
Hey guys,

It was me that gave the talk at GDC that is being referred to in the quoted articles and I wanted to try and clarify CCP's plans on new uses for AUR.

There are currently no plans to introduce new uses for AUR in EVE aside from ship skins.

As Hilmar said in his blog and I reiterated in my GDC presentation, the EVE Development team understand that we made mistakes in the rollout of virtual items into EVE. We know that this means a lot to you so before making any kind of significant change to the implementation of virtual item sales or the uses of AUR we will consult with the CSM and the rest of the EVE community at the planning stage.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#23 - 2011-10-14 14:27:06 UTC
CCP Caedmon wrote:
Hey guys,

It was me that gave the talk at GDC that is being referred to in the quoted articles and I wanted to try and clarify CCP's plans on new uses for AUR.

There are currently no plans to introduce new uses for AUR in EVE aside from ship skins.

As Hilmar said in his blog and I reiterated in my GDC presentation, the EVE Development team understand that we made mistakes in the rollout of virtual items into EVE. We know that this means a lot to you so before making any kind of significant change to the implementation of virtual item sales or the uses of AUR we will consult with the CSM and the rest of the EVE community at the planning stage.


And this is exactly the kind of slippery slope I am referring too in my long post on NeX and Incarna here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20208&find=unread

What I'd like to ask you CCP Caedmon is just when the ability to choose different skins for our spaceships in Eve Online changed from being a piece of nice to have core content that would hopefully lead to corporate and alliance logos on our vessels, to becoming "vanity" and thus valid material to deliver through a company store delivery mechanism inside an already subscription-based game?

Why shouldn't the ability to customize and sell paint schemes for our spaceships in Eve Online be a player profession that works within the normal market mechanics?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#24 - 2011-10-14 14:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Here is a quote from the comments section of the linked slashdot article that I agree with 101% btw;

http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/10/11/038243/ccp-deconstructs-eve-onlines-microtransaction-missteps

Quote:
They still don't get it.
It's not about the price or the clothes for characters instead of ships.

It's about the fact that we pay a subscription each month (an expensive one compared to other MMOs, I might add) and we feel that we deserve anything they develop for free. If they use their employees, time or money to develop something for the game, it should be free or more exactly: it should be granted by the monthly fee.

Most players do not just feel like they are paying to play a game, they feel like they are also investing money in Eve. They pay CCP in the hopes of seeing the game improve and accomplish it's full potential. When CCP makes us pay a subscription AND for new content, they don't just make us pay twice, they are also telling us "Thanks for your investment. Now pay us some more to get access to the result of that investment".

It's like renting a car and having to pay extra for a seatbelt. It's like a company taking money from investors and then telling them "your investment allows you to buy the products we make".

This is the third or fourth official apology from CCP and they still don't get it.

Oh and by the way - this new path CCP is taking (making players pay for new content) so far has made them lose more players than they have earned. Not only has this caused players to quit Eve, it has also ruined the company's and the game's reputation among potential future players. Personally the only reason I'm still playing is because I haven't given up all hope yet and I can say the same of most players I know.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#25 - 2011-10-14 14:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
non judgement wrote:
I thought Aurum was going to be what we used to pay Dust soldiers to do things for us or to buy them things when they are fighting?



Interesting idea. It hadn't occurred to me for some reason.


The DUST video shows ISK prices however. We will probably be able to pay in both currencies I imagine.

Where I am.

Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-10-14 14:37:36 UTC
Im still having massive difficulty is understanding what all the crying is really about. Dont want Nex stuff? Dont buy it. Do want Nex stuff but have no RL money? PVE some isk, buy plex, exchange for AUR. Want Nex stuff, dont want to PVE but have RL money? Buy plex, swap it for Aur.

It REALLY changes nothing. PLEX is altready here, its already being used by the rich kids to buy their nightmares, machariels and Supers, RM IS ALREADY USED TO BUY EXPENSIVE BATTLE WINNING STUFF. Aurum wont change anything, its merely another way of trading, you can use in game or out of game money to buy AUR. Just like you can with PLEX.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-10-14 14:40:51 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:


What I'd like to ask you CCP Caedmon is just when the ability to choose different skins for our spaceships in Eve Online changed from being a piece of nice to have core content that would hopefully lead to corporate and alliance logos on our vessels, to becoming "vanity" and thus valid material to deliver through a company store delivery mechanism inside an already subscription-based game?

Why shouldn't the ability to customize and sell paint schemes for our spaceships in Eve Online be a player profession that works within the normal market mechanics?


Because that would be fun, popular, and widely used by the player base. The purpose of Aurum is to suck the fun out of everything it touches.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#28 - 2011-10-14 14:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Rico Minali wrote:
Im still having massive difficulty is understanding what all the crying is really about. Dont want Nex stuff? Dont buy it. Do want Nex stuff but have no RL money? PVE some isk, buy plex, exchange for AUR. Want Nex stuff, dont want to PVE but have RL money? Buy plex, swap it for Aur.

It REALLY changes nothing. PLEX is altready here, its already being used by the rich kids to buy their nightmares, machariels and Supers, RM IS ALREADY USED TO BUY EXPENSIVE BATTLE WINNING STUFF. Aurum wont change anything, its merely another way of trading, you can use in game or out of game money to buy AUR. Just like you can with PLEX.


It changes the method used to bring the content into the game.

Without NeX then things like clothing/ship skins etc would be seeded as blueprints to appropriate in-game npc corporations that people would buy and build by collecting the appropriate materials from missioning/exploration/reactions/PI etc etc. Basically this stuff would make more things for industrialists and pve orientated players to do and enjoy. It gets players in space doing stuff, using the tools the sandbox has provided them and providing competition and challenge (and targets) for other players. It can also make rare (hard to find and build) items truely rare because they are hard to find.

With NeX its just there in a nasty little interface that cuts out the enjoyment of all of the above and cheapens the Eve sandbox. Nothing is truly rare or "prestigious" because nothing actually takes any effort. I make £40-50 pound an hour in my day job. Isn't eve cheapened for me when I can click/buy ANYTHING in the NeX store rather than needing engage in some gameplay for it?

That is the difference between NeX and Plex.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Garbad theWeak
#29 - 2011-10-14 14:59:40 UTC
CCP Caedmon wrote:
Hey guys,

It was me that gave the talk at GDC that is being referred to in the quoted articles and I wanted to try and clarify CCP's plans on new uses for AUR.

There are currently no plans to introduce new uses for AUR in EVE aside from ship skins.

As Hilmar said in his blog and I reiterated in my GDC presentation, the EVE Development team understand that we made mistakes in the rollout of virtual items into EVE. We know that this means a lot to you so before making any kind of significant change to the implementation of virtual item sales or the uses of AUR we will consult with the CSM and the rest of the EVE community at the planning stage.
The article implies that you think the problem was a lack of pretty pony content and too expensive pretty pony content. The problem is that your vision of the future of eve simply isn't what players want. You learned the wrong lessons, and next time I won't be rioting and hoping for change -- I'll be gone.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-10-14 15:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Garbad theWeak wrote:
CCP Caedmon wrote:
Hey guys,

It was me that gave the talk at GDC that is being referred to in the quoted articles and I wanted to try and clarify CCP's plans on new uses for AUR.

There are currently no plans to introduce new uses for AUR in EVE aside from ship skins.

As Hilmar said in his blog and I reiterated in my GDC presentation, the EVE Development team understand that we made mistakes in the rollout of virtual items into EVE. We know that this means a lot to you so before making any kind of significant change to the implementation of virtual item sales or the uses of AUR we will consult with the CSM and the rest of the EVE community at the planning stage.
The article implies that you think the problem was a lack of pretty pony content and too expensive pretty pony content. The problem is that your vision of the future of eve simply isn't what players want. You learned the wrong lessons, and next time I won't be rioting and hoping for change -- I'll be gone.


This sums up my thoughts nicely.

CCP Caedmon the comments made made it seem like you missed the point of what happened and why completely.

The impression we are left with time an again these days is CCP is out of touch with the players.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Lexmana
#31 - 2011-10-14 15:05:24 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Im still having massive difficulty is understanding what all the crying is really about. Dont want Nex stuff? Dont buy it. Do want Nex stuff but have no RL money? PVE some isk, buy plex, exchange for AUR. Want Nex stuff, dont want to PVE but have RL money? Buy plex, swap it for Aur.

It REALLY changes nothing. PLEX is altready here, its already being used by the rich kids to buy their nightmares, machariels and Supers, RM IS ALREADY USED TO BUY EXPENSIVE BATTLE WINNING STUFF. Aurum wont change anything, its merely another way of trading, you can use in game or out of game money to buy AUR. Just like you can with PLEX.


Maybe you don't want to understand!

The nightmares and machariels and supers you are referring ares sold on the market in EvE and is the result of other players activity (grinding LP, trading, hauling, manufacturing, refining, inventing and fighting for resources with combat ships in null and with trade orders on the various regional markest in EvE). Try to imagine if these ships (and everything else) in EvE instead was created out of thin air and sold in a NeX-shop near you.

What would become of EvE ?
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness
#32 - 2011-10-14 15:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tony Two Bullet
CCP Caedmon wrote:
Hey guys,

It was me that gave the talk at GDC that is being referred to in the quoted articles and I wanted to try and clarify CCP's plans on new uses for AUR.

There are currently no plans to introduce new uses for AUR in EVE aside from ship skins.

As Hilmar said in his blog and I reiterated in my GDC presentation, the EVE Development team understand that we made mistakes in the rollout of virtual items into EVE. We know that this means a lot to you so before making any kind of significant change to the implementation of virtual item sales or the uses of AUR we will consult with the CSM and the rest of the EVE community at the planning stage.




The "Aside form Ship Skins" does bring up a good question. If an Alliance wants to fit all their ships with a logo... and then they all get blown up - the prices of those skins really need to be DIRT Cheap. More importantly, how many people in large alliances are really going to care about this? It's really going to be for the niche high sec corp that has some delusion that their pretty shiny ships aren't going to get blown up ever.


I see this being popular for some mining vessels - but really, anyone who takes PVP seriously is never going to fit a paint job if they have to buy it with AUR everytime they want to do it. Or it has to be so damn cheap, on the order of 1 AUR that people selling it for ISK can reasonably sell such a thing en masse and regularly.
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-10-14 15:10:46 UTC
I would think a simple solution to this would be the use of Aurum buys a bpc of said item which can then be turned over to someone to manufacture. Like instead of buying a paint skin there is instead a bpc to build said battleship with the paint scheme. Maybe make material for clothing, etc come from PI which would expand the uses for the goods from that. I just think it could be done in a way that both CCP and the manufacturing sector both can get their pieces of the pie.
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness
#34 - 2011-10-14 15:14:12 UTC
Kumq uat wrote:
I would think a simple solution to this would be the use of Aurum buys a bpc of said item which can then be turned over to someone to manufacture. Like instead of buying a paint skin there is instead a bpc to build said battleship with the paint scheme. Maybe make material for clothing, etc come from PI which would expand the uses for the goods from that. I just think it could be done in a way that both CCP and the manufacturing sector both can get their pieces of the pie.



I personally prefer if the skins were swappable. We haven't heard from the Ishukone Scorpion from a while. Either they're not going to launch that at all in place of an actual skin "slot" on your ship to put the skin of your choice.


I can't believe that they're STILL waiting to "find a way" to put "blueprints" on the NEX store. Really? Lol
Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-10-14 15:15:27 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:
Im still having massive difficulty is understanding what all the crying is really about. Dont want Nex stuff? Dont buy it. Do want Nex stuff but have no RL money? PVE some isk, buy plex, exchange for AUR. Want Nex stuff, dont want to PVE but have RL money? Buy plex, swap it for Aur.

It REALLY changes nothing. PLEX is altready here, its already being used by the rich kids to buy their nightmares, machariels and Supers, RM IS ALREADY USED TO BUY EXPENSIVE BATTLE WINNING STUFF. Aurum wont change anything, its merely another way of trading, you can use in game or out of game money to buy AUR. Just like you can with PLEX.


It changes the method used to bring the content into the game.

Without NeX then things like clothing/ship skins etc would be seeded as blueprints to appropriate in-game npc corporations that people would buy and build by collecting the appropriate materials from missioning/exploration/reactions/PI etc etc. Basically this stuff would make more things for industrialists and pve orientated players to do and enjoy. It gets players in space doing stuff, using the tools the sandbox has provided them and providing competition and challenge (and targets) for other players. It can also make rare (hard to find and build) items truely rare because they are hard to find.

With NeX its just there in a nasty little interface that cuts out the enjoyment of all of the above and cheapens the Eve sandbox. Nothing is truly rare or "prestigious" because nothing actually takes any effort. I make £40-50 pound an hour in my day job. Isn't eve cheapened for me when I can click/buy ANYTHING in the NeX store rather than needing engage in some gameplay for it?

That is the difference between NeX and Plex.



No, I dont agree simply becaus eof what you say, you earn enough money in RL that if you chose to do so you could buy enough plex to simply buy it outright if you wanted to.

I dont see clothes manufacturing as something that would A: help the games immersion or B: be somethign that immortal multi billion isk spaceship captains would engage in.

Its clothes, and paint jobs, its the kind of stuff that ordinary run of the mill people would do, and sell to everyone. So yes, tehre should be stuff that is literally just available to buy not produce otherwise it means that capsuleers are literally the only people in Eve, having to do everything themselves. Thats the in game way of seeing it.

The out of game way to look at it is quite simply because it doesnt change anything.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#36 - 2011-10-14 15:16:53 UTC
Lexmana wrote:


Maybe you don't want to understand!

The nightmares and machariels and supers you are referring ares sold on the market in EvE and is the result of other players activity (grinding LP, trading, hauling, manufacturing, refining, inventing and fighting for resources with combat ships in null and with trade orders on the various regional markest in EvE). Try to imagine if these ships (and everything else) in EvE instead was created out of thin air and sold in a NeX-shop near you.

What would become of EvE ?


What I don't understand is this mistaken impression that CCP hasn't said anything about Aurum and NeX items.

They have. Repeatedly.

They've already said (on mutiple fronts) that the NeX is never going to be used to give players an 'edge'. They're leaving it solely for vanity items that have no effect on gameplay.

Will this change in the future? Perhaps. I'm not a psychic, I can't see the future. What I can see, however, is a lot of 'Chicken Little'ing over something that has been addressed by CCP quite clearly in the past.

The sky isn't falling. Relax. Take a breath.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#37 - 2011-10-14 15:17:00 UTC
Kumq uat wrote:
I would think a simple solution to this would be the use of Aurum buys a bpc of said item which can then be turned over to someone to manufacture. Like instead of buying a paint skin there is instead a bpc to build said battleship with the paint scheme. Maybe make material for clothing, etc come from PI which would expand the uses for the goods from that. I just think it could be done in a way that both CCP and the manufacturing sector both can get their pieces of the pie.


My question is ... whats the point of using Aurum in the first place?

CCP still get "their piece of the pie" (increased income) by people RL buying and selling plex for ISK to fund the purchase of things in-game.

Any BPC BPO puchase from NPC corps in game will make CCP extra money if people fund the purchase with PLEX.

So why go down this cheap and nasty NeX/Aurum route at the cost of atagnonizing their long-suffering player base and losing more goodwill?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#38 - 2011-10-14 15:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Lexmana wrote:


Maybe you don't want to understand!

The nightmares and machariels and supers you are referring ares sold on the market in EvE and is the result of other players activity (grinding LP, trading, hauling, manufacturing, refining, inventing and fighting for resources with combat ships in null and with trade orders on the various regional markest in EvE). Try to imagine if these ships (and everything else) in EvE instead was created out of thin air and sold in a NeX-shop near you.

What would become of EvE ?


What I don't understand is this mistaken impression that CCP hasn't said anything about Aurum and NeX items.

They have. Repeatedly.

They've already said (on mutiple fronts) that the NeX is never going to be used to give players an 'edge'. They're leaving it solely for vanity items that have no effect on gameplay.



And that statement is not correct.

You get an "edge" in gameplay in Eve Online if you are able to build a successful corporation/alliance. Recruiting good players is a function of gameplay basically. If you have tools that will help you recruit then thats a gameplay advantage.

Paying 1b to EON for a full page ad? Thats a gameplay advantage.
Paying for a login screen advert for your corp ? gameplay advantage.
Alliance logo on your ship skins? That sure as hell is a gameplay advantage.

I do not buy this line that "vanity" is somehow not a gameplay advantage. And I think many people (including the current CSM) have done a profound disservice to the player base by allowing CCP off the hook on this issue.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#39 - 2011-10-14 15:28:06 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:

No, I dont agree simply becaus eof what you say, you earn enough money in RL that if you chose to do so you could buy enough plex to simply buy it outright if you wanted to.


So why use the NeX store in the first place when we have a perfectly servicable MT income for CCP called PLEX?

Quote:
I dont see clothes manufacturing as something that would A: help the games immersion or B: be somethign that immortal multi billion isk spaceship captains would engage in.


I honestly don't see how you can claim having clothes bought through NeX is more immersive than having players build them ourselves. But ultimately people make their own minds up - I wouldn't manufacture clothes but then I don't do reactions, I don't do PI, I don't make rigs/ or whatever else people build in game but I know many thousands upon thousands of other players do and enjoy these things. Hence I don't think its right to rob other players of potential interest by cheapening the delivery model.

To you point B) seriously. Multi Billion isk spaceship captains get to be multi-billion isk spaceship captains by engaging in profitable business. Since the average price of clothing for spaceship captains is much higher than the price of a battleship I don't any reason whatsoever why it is not a viable business to be involved in. Players make a fortune on fractional increments in the value of space rock. Its ridiculous to claim that super expensive clothing manufacture is not something capsuleers would engage in.

Quote:
Its clothes, and paint jobs, its the kind of stuff that ordinary run of the mill people would do, and sell to everyone. So yes, tehre should be stuff that is literally just available to buy not produce otherwise it means that capsuleers are literally the only people in Eve, having to do everything themselves. Thats the in game way of seeing it.


Ordinary "run of the mill" people don't get paid 600m isk for making a set of boots.


The out of game way to look at it is quite simply because it doesnt change anything.[/quote]

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Lexmana
#40 - 2011-10-14 15:33:39 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
The sky isn't falling. Relax. Take a breath.


I agree with you. There is no longer imminent danger. Though some might actually argue that a lot of damage has already been made by introducing vanity items in NeX that could easily have been incorporated into the player driven economy to expand the game. Also, IMHO, by making NeX items indestructible they made a huge mistake. Huge mistake.