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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#181 - 2012-08-31 12:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Morgan North wrote:
I have a suggestion:

Currently defensive plexing in FW, offers no rewards.

Here's an idea:

If the system is being contested, or not at maximum upgrade level, some opposing FW beacons show up.

Lets say that a system is secured and at level 5.

No enemy plexes can show up.

If at level 4, one enemy plex may be open at any one time, but never more than one. Recapturing it, or destroying it, works the same as simply recapturing a defensive plex, but offer standard rewards. Or lowered rewards.

Level 3, two plexes, level 2 three plexes, level 1 four plexes, contested, as many as possible of both types os plexes, and at opposing faction there's no friendly plexes other than those permitted by the above.

This would provide incentive for defending players aswell as look like military attempts at retaking or capturing the system.


I think this has a similar effect to your suggestion, except it only gives rewards in systems that are being actively attacked by players instead of simulating attacks by NPCs:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

* Defensive plexing gives LP: as title says, but with a twist. LP amount is based on contested system % to avoid farming. Thus, a system that is 50% contested would only give 50% of the total LP amount available. Maximum cap would be set to 75% to encourage players to still be in the offensive.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
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Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#182 - 2012-08-31 12:54:21 UTC
Please also do something against all that "AFK-Farming" where people just send an MWD-Frigate with capstable tank into a plex and collect LPs for just orbiting... and if another Player kills them they laugh and use the next Frigate because that costs virtually nothing and can be done with a some-day-old newbiechar.



Webber-Turrets, Sentries with Tracking that kills MWD-Ceptors at Range or just don't give LP if nothing is killed in the PLEX... earning money completely AFK is not what FW should be like and there are lots of easy solutions for the problem.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#183 - 2012-08-31 12:58:05 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Please also do something against all that "AFK-Farming" where people just send an MWD-Frigate with capstable tank into a plex and collect LPs for just orbiting... and if another Player kills them they laugh and use the next Frigate because that costs virtually nothing and can be done with a some-day-old newbiechar.



Webber-Turrets, Sentries with Tracking that kills MWD-Ceptors at Range or just don't give LP if nothing is killed in the PLEX... earning money completely AFK is not what FW should be like and there are lots of easy solutions for the problem.


We have a plan, but that's going to go in the other thread (the NPC and Complexes thread)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#184 - 2012-08-31 13:00:14 UTC
It would also be a big help to put the complex closer to where you land after the acceleration gate. It's far too easy for people to avoid combat...
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#185 - 2012-08-31 13:01:57 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
It would also be a big help to put the complex closer to where you land after the acceleration gate. It's far too easy for people to avoid combat...


Great minds think alike. (That stuff is also going to be in the other thread once Ytterbium finishes that post)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#186 - 2012-08-31 13:12:00 UTC
I'm cautiously optimistic. There's workable income for a losing faction. Tier 5 will be very hard and expensive to maintain. It gives a x3 benefit rather then the current x4. Hitting Minmatar in Metropolis may finally peel fighters away from the front. I'm a bit nervous that a winning team will have hordes of risk averse defensive plexers but I understand. I did suggest the % contested idea.

Since we are adding defensive LP, are there plans to kill or reduce FW mission LP? What about plexing in Caldari space under the Minmatar flag?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#187 - 2012-08-31 13:14:42 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


Since we are adding defensive LP, are there plans to kill or reduce FW mission LP? What about plexing in Caldari space under the Minmatar flag?


We're doing a close look at all LP sources and making sure they're all balanced with our goals. Missions are definitely a big part of that. We already fixed one bugged agent in a quick server fix and the results of the rest of the balancing will get posted in this forum once it's further along.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#188 - 2012-08-31 13:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Quote:
Q: MAYBE WE SHOULD TIE SHIP INSURANCE COSTS TO SYSTEM UPGRADES?

A: That also was quickly considered and dismissed, mainly because there is a high chance it will be exploited to death. If anything the great summer 2012 LP farming taught us to be extremely cautious with this kind of things as our player base are a bit like Velociraptors in that Jurassic Park movie: they will find devious way to eat our designs alive from the side. Clever girl.


Glad to have helped in some roundabout way...

Quote:
And yes, we know you, you and you over there have been doing it for hours, we have logs.

*whistles innocently*

Anyway, I'm going to have to say I'm cautiously optimistic here as well. If Fozzie would confirm for us that he's working on it instead of merely being the front man, I could probably strike the "cautiously" from the record, too... Blink

e: My concern is still the opposite of Karah Serrigan's - not that upgrading becomes obsolete, but that this only further encourages people on to one side to just farm. I suppose it remains to see how many "good fights" folks and/or amarrian die-hards there are, or whether these bring new ones back...

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#189 - 2012-08-31 13:27:26 UTC
corestwo wrote:

Anyway, I'm going to have to say I'm cautiously optimistic here as well. If Fozzie would confirm for us that he's working on it instead of merely being the front man, I could probably strike the "cautiously" from the record, too... Blink


FW is the biggest focus for Team Game of Drones this expansion, which counts both Ytterbium and myself among its members

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#190 - 2012-08-31 13:32:13 UTC
Hooray!


Who do I have to bribe to get Game of Drones assigned to revamping nullsec when (hopefully not if) that happens?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#191 - 2012-08-31 13:35:03 UTC
It would cost the Minmatar 1.2 million LP to upgrade a system to 5 currently? Luv it! That only works if there is some LP scarcity though.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#192 - 2012-08-31 13:35:31 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Hooray!


Who do I have to bribe to get Game of Drones assigned to revamping nullsec when (hopefully not if) that happens?


If you find out let me know Blink

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#193 - 2012-08-31 13:58:14 UTC
RE: LP overhaul

If you are going to be redoing the LP interface and system, I would like to offer the following suggestions:


  • Remove corporation LP and only have Faction LP. In the olden days this might have been a good idea on paper but it offers no additional benefit to gameplay.
  • One unified LP store per faction. Again there is no reason to have multiple stores unless you goal is to infuriate players. Items can be made available to those of us that are in FW for the FW only items. Further more you could do neat things like not allow the opposing factions access to the LP stores. Think about it.
  • Journal log. As you stated we should have a record of all LP gains and spends. It would be really nice to be able to create a "kill board" to see who is gaining the most LP and donating the most LP toward upgrades.
  • Remove tag requirements from items.
  • Allow tags to be turned in for LP.


I have more but I need more coffee...
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2012-08-31 14:07:40 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
WINTER ITERATIONS
We would remove LP store price reduction in the new system, and only modify LP gained. As such, tier1 WZ would reduce all LP gains by 50%, tier2 would keep them on the same field as of now, tier3 would give a 100% LP gain bonus, tier4 150% and tier5 200% LP gain bonus. This would encourage factions to actually keep and maintain space to have the LP bonus rather than just push once in a while.
]


Imo this, combined with the increased cost for upgrading, will just make upgrading obsolete at all. In a balanced war, like the one between caldari and gallente, where systems flip every day or two, its not worth upgrading a system to gain some more LP.
Repair cost, tower fuel cost and market tax reduction are a complete nonfactor.
The industry bonuses are very nice obviously, but again, theres just no way someone would spend 300k lp for a system which gets flipped in 2 days anyway.


That's part of the reason we're dropping the bleed to 10%. The combined factors of the reduced bleed and the increased cost mean that to get a system from fully upgraded down to no upgrades will take 10 times as many plexes as it currently does.

Correct me if im wrong, but the LP bleed is not tied -directly- to vulnerabilty of a system. What i mean is not that the upgrades get plexed down but rather the system gets flipped over while it is upgraded to 5.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#195 - 2012-08-31 14:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Marcel Devereux wrote:
  • Remove corporation LP and only have Faction LP. In the olden days this might have been a good idea on paper but it offers no additional benefit to gameplay.
  • One unified LP store per faction. Again there is no reason to have multiple stores unless you goal is to infuriate players. Items can be made available to those of us that are in FW for the FW only items. Further more you could do neat things like not allow the opposing factions access to the LP stores. Think about it.

These two are both options but to do that we'd need to rewrite the whole LP store system as it is currently really bad. Rewriting it is something we want to do but it won't fit into this release.

Marcel Devereux wrote:
  • Journal log. As you stated we should have a record of all LP gains and spends. It would be really nice to be able to create a "kill board" to see who is gaining the most LP and donating the most LP toward upgrades.

We are working on ways to make LP gain show more clearly, more details on all that should come later.

Marcel Devereux wrote:
  • Remove tag requirements from items.
  • Allow tags to be turned in for LP.

That tag change is something we've heard from others as well, I definitely think is has merit but we can't commit to tag changes at this time.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#196 - 2012-08-31 14:12:16 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
WINTER ITERATIONS
We would remove LP store price reduction in the new system, and only modify LP gained. As such, tier1 WZ would reduce all LP gains by 50%, tier2 would keep them on the same field as of now, tier3 would give a 100% LP gain bonus, tier4 150% and tier5 200% LP gain bonus. This would encourage factions to actually keep and maintain space to have the LP bonus rather than just push once in a while.
]


Imo this, combined with the increased cost for upgrading, will just make upgrading obsolete at all. In a balanced war, like the one between caldari and gallente, where systems flip every day or two, its not worth upgrading a system to gain some more LP.
Repair cost, tower fuel cost and market tax reduction are a complete nonfactor.
The industry bonuses are very nice obviously, but again, theres just no way someone would spend 300k lp for a system which gets flipped in 2 days anyway.


That's part of the reason we're dropping the bleed to 10%. The combined factors of the reduced bleed and the increased cost mean that to get a system from fully upgraded down to no upgrades will take 10 times as many plexes as it currently does.

Correct me if im wrong, but the LP bleed is not tied -directly- to vulnerabilty of a system. What i mean is not that the upgrades get plexed down but rather the system gets flipped over while it is upgraded to 5.


That's correct but system flips become much harder when the system is being defended via defensive plexing (which will now give LP) and defending the IHub (which people have incentive to do now that you can't farm opposing systems forever).

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-08-31 14:16:24 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:

Correct me if im wrong, but the LP bleed is not tied -directly- to vulnerabilty of a system. What i mean is not that the upgrades get plexed down but rather the system gets flipped over while it is upgraded to 5.


systems can't get flipped if they are upgraded. Also, systems don't get flipped every two days like someone else mentioned as it's impossible to plex it down that fast to do it; unless the systems I"ve been in have been buffered to hell and back
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#198 - 2012-08-31 14:18:00 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Many thanks for reading this huuuuuge wall of text, constructive comments are welcome Twisted

I'll read your wall and build you one of my own. By the way, constructive comments have not existed with regards to FW for years, too many emotions invested for anything to be any more than subjective and subjective does not mix well with constructive Big smile

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Q: WHY NOT HAVING SEPARATE DONATION BRANCHES WITH DIFFERENT EFFECTS IN THE I-HUB?

Seems dead easy to me, reduce amount in both branches equally, in essence doubling the "effectiveness" of plexing in a "super system". One must assume that the double path is only utilized in protected systems so if anything it would increase the pew.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Q: HOW ABOUT HAVING PIRATE NPCS IN BELTS PROVIDE BETTER SECURITY STATUS INCREASES FROM SYSTEM UPGRADES?

You got that backwards me'thinks. There is currently minimal risk or downside involved with breaking the law, null is generally safer than low-sec (or even some high-sec areas!) and the person working on his sec. status gets ISK thrown in his face on top of it all (bounties). If you keep status quo, at least remove bounties as long as the pilot has negative sec. status .. makes double sense as law enforcement probably does not really hire that many criminals to assist them.

There was a suggestion made some time ago to move all sec. gain to low-sec, no if's or but's. Makes a lot more sense to require criminals to 'help' the society they have inflicted harm upon rather than having them run around doing the thing that got them in trouble (shooting stuff) in places beyond the reach of the law (null-sec).
Adding a sec. gain modifier to system upgrades would make FW turf the best place to be for sec. repair, but militia's are generally quite trigger happy so it would also be the most dangerous .. just sayin' Smile

WAR ZONE CONTROL EFFECTS:
Good move, not sure if its enough though, might have to tweak requirements for the tiers as well. In case you were unaware, the geography on the Shakorite/Amarr front is such that almost the entire Shakorite hinter-land is inaccessible for anything but a full-scale concerted attack .. too many bottlenecks and staggering distances involved.
I bet (read: haven't run the numbers) the Shakorites can keep the hinter-land perpetually upgraded with none on the front and enjoy near max. LP benefit with minimal risk and/or cost.

NEW SYSTEM COSTS:
So you are doubling it them, yes? Now the process of taking one system yields LP (roughly 3M) enough to fully upgrade ten system instead of twenty .. I sincerely hope that maintenance percentage kicks into over-drive fast'ish if it is to have any effect whatsoever .. as in going from tier 4-5 requires millions in LP per system, minimum as much as has been made taking the system in the first place.

NEW SYSTEM UPGRADES:
You holding out on us or did the thread go on too long for the earlier ideas to stay in memory?
Where is the single best idea of all, the one that added docking denial to the upgrade path and thus rewarded concerted/organized attacks?
At least you have repair/tax reductions in there now which is good, but still need some tinkering if it is to be applicable to a bloody (read: knee-deep in blood, not the swear word) WARZONE!!!11

CYNO JAMMER:
Still not getting what issue a jammer is supposed to solve that is not more easily and appropriately solved by looking at supers as they relate to sovereign empire space .. vanilla caps have never been an issue, hell most militias drop them on a whim but supers are generally a null thing and should be 'encouraged' to stay out of the empire's way.
So why? What are you trying to solve? How many additional militia capital 'GFs' do you honestly expect will be the result of the man-hours spent adding this useless feature?

REDUCE I-HUB LP BLEED and DEFENSIVE PLEXING GIVES LP:
Somehow knew this was coming, Farmers Union has been allowed to grow too strong Sad
Let me tell you how it will go down; Attackers will be allowed free reign for the 7-8 hours it takes to whittle down the buffer after which defender sends in a blob, clears system and gets maximum defensive LP allowed without taking a tier hit .. will be done by gun-less alts obviously because anything else is madness .. that is for core systems where repair/market discounts are of value.
Most other systems (read: not needed to maintain WZC tier) will be allowed to be put into vulnerable as now before defensive efforts are even considered to maximize the LP income.
End result: You have managed to reinforce the farming rather than neuter it as you should want .. it is about pew after all, no?

Better: Increase bleed again, you doubled buffer so set too low and have the defensive LP be applied to iHub directly (ie. pilot never sees it) without maintenance fee ..
- Will increase the pressure to defend when holding enough space for the maintenance to hurt.

LP FROM VULNERABLE SYSTEMS:
Why even include this, Capt. Obvious? Smile Personally would have classified it as a bug and squashed it with nary a mention .. tear generation would be tremendous.

What I am still missing (way more I'd like but running out of 'remaining characters'):
- Where is the mechanism that allows the underdog (ie. outmanned/-financed) to have fun/make headway without having to resort to excessive blobbing or other fun killing tricks (especially since you want to keep the game-breakingly bad for non-blobs no docking rule)?
- Where is the incentive to aggressively pursue attackers if/when a certain tier has been secured (see above reg. Shakorite geography)?
- You claim you can't make LP store dynamic due to it being a dusty old thing, then why not yank a bunch of the faction items from the various Empire stores to give FW monopoly on more than just some cores and a few hulls?
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#199 - 2012-08-31 14:20:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Marcel Devereux wrote:
  • Journal log. As you stated we should have a record of all LP gains and spends. It would be really nice to be able to create a "kill board" to see who is gaining the most LP and donating the most LP toward upgrades.

We are working on ways to make LP gain show more clearly, more details on all that should come later.


There is showing it in the game UI and providing access to the API. Please consider adding it to the API! Now all we need is CREST...
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-08-31 14:29:32 UTC
I'm cautiously optimistic as well, however given the rate of plexing, I really don't think maintenance fees are necessary and may even be overly punitive. Even with 10% decrease for each plex, you'll still see a lot of upgrades being stripped.

In any case, it looks good, especially the cyno jammers, but the real meat is in the small details of the plexing mechanics. Remember that the reason people farm is because the mechanics of plexing make it easy to do so. NPC balancing and plex changes will really determine what happens with this patch.