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No Eve Player Should Miss This Article
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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#21 - 2012-08-28 07:43:42 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
I don't get why some people who's playstyle is represented in the lowsec and nullsec regions of EVE feel the need to whine and complain about a part of EVE space which is obviously not intended for them. If you don't like certain systems being relatively safeish for the theme park mmo minded PAYING subscriber to enjoy in their way, nobody is forcing you to play in them. Just stay out in lowsec and if that gets too boring you can always fly out to null. Those areas, which I suspect make up the majority of EVE space, are intended for you.


I have to agree with you, I never quite got the outrage either. I could understand if Null and Low sec where desolate places with no PvP, but in 7 years despite the often statement by players to just that fact, I have never seen it to be true. There is a ton of PvP taking place every day in Null, Low and Wormhole space. Billions of ISK get blown up out there and I make my daily contribution. Its extremely rare that I go into Null, Low or Wormhole without finding some volunteers ready to murder me.

I do agree with one aspect of the article and that is curving of Warefare between corporation. I think the ability to wage war between corporations and alliance is a fundamental must have in the game. 90% of what I do in this game which is often extremely aggressive and imposing on other players would leave my opponents without any recourse if it where not for the war dec mechanic. By the time they figure out what I did, its far to late to do anything about, but thanks to war decs they have a way to retaliate. So I do believe this is a vital component of Eve and its in dire need of attention.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#22 - 2012-08-28 07:43:59 UTC
I don't get why people cry about the mining barge buffs. It 's natural for NPC companies to develop better defences for mining ships when they are expected to be frequently attacked by pirates. People learn to adapt and develop solutions to suit their needs so it makes sense that mining ships would become stronger to suit the needs of the miners.

Oh god.
William Walker
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#23 - 2012-08-28 07:46:19 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Well I suppose it depends on how you see it and how a larger population would mix into the game. I would presume that if you add say 300,000 more players to Eve today that a certain percentage of them will venture beyond high sec, hence it would likely result in having more people floating around in low, null and wormhole.

I can't really find anything negative about that as a whole. I mean to me, the idea of shooting someone in High Sec seems .... I don't know, pointless at least from the perspective of a Eve player that is the pursuit of advancement, wealth, politics and pretty much anything but the general tear induction that is suicide ganking. I have never shot at someone in high sec except during wars and I have been playing this game for about 7 years and I don't feel like I have missed out on some intracle part of the game or something...

For me, fighting is something that results from my pursuits beyond the borders of High Sec when me and my crew are running our various ops in Null or Wormhole and the occasional low sec ops, we fight and bleed... High Sec is kind of a place we return to, to gear up and get ready for the next excursion be it a short term daily op or a long term home out in space somewhere.

I guess my point is that if you eliminated suicide ganking, as a 7 year veteran that has tried most everything that there is to do in Eve from Sov Warfare, to mining, from can flipping to scamming (suicide ganking aside) I don't see how making high sec safer would have any impact on me at all.

I do find the article compelling because I understand that Eve is played in a variety of ways beyond what I do and have done in the past, but I question the wisdom of maintain a lower population and not reaching a larger audience with Eve is a good trade off just to keep something relatively insignificant like suicide ganking?


Perhaps, but it should not be 100% safe. Even if a gank is rare and many suicide attack attempts fail, the possibility that they can still happen and that you should take care of your **** should still be there.

ヽ(⌒∇⌒)ﾉ へ(゜∇、°)へ (◕‿◕✿)
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#24 - 2012-08-28 07:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't get why people cry about the mining barge buffs. It 's natural for NPC companies to develop better defences for mining ships when they are expected to be frequently attacked by pirates. People learn to adapt and develop solutions to suit their needs so it makes sense that mining ships would become stronger to suit the needs of the miners.


Your correct, but in defense of the article what the author was saying is that players already had the option to adapt and they don't work for NPC corporations, they work for themselves. Tanking up a mining ship to avoid a suicide gank was extremely easy to do and 100% effective before the patch. People simply didn't do it, hence the point to make is that players refused to adapt, so CCP adapted the game for them. I agree with author that this is not a good way to go about developing a competitive game. If players can't adapt because the mechanics are unfair, than yea, fix them... but if you have the option to adapt and you simply ignore it because the rewards are better if you choose not to tank out your miner, than you have a made a conscious player choice and should live with the consequences. Thats kind of like saying that an industrial player chose not to put warp stabilizers on his industrial ship because he filled it with cargo expanders and than came to CCP and demanded 5 free points on the industrial ships because its not fair that they can be warp scrammed. I don't think anyone would agree this is a good idea, but its effectively what happen with exhumers.

The only question here is should there be consequences in high sec? Is a game without consequences fun? I think these are some of the fundamental questions about suicide ganking.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2012-08-28 08:04:14 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't get why people cry about the mining barge buffs. It 's natural for NPC companies to develop better defences for mining ships when they are expected to be frequently attacked by pirates. People learn to adapt and develop solutions to suit their needs so it makes sense that mining ships would become stronger to suit the needs of the miners.


Your correct, but in defense of the article what the author was saying is that players already had the option to adapt and they don't work for NPC corporations, they work for themselves. Tanking up a mining ship to avoid a suicide gank was extremely easy to do and 100% effective before the patch. People simply didn't do it, hence the point to make is that players refused to adapt, so CCP adapted the game for them. I agree with author that this is not a good way to go about developing a competitive game. If players can't adapt because the mechanics are unfair, than yea, fix them... but if you have the option to adapt and you simply ignore it because the rewards are better if you choose not to tank out your miner, than you have a made a conscious player choice and should live with the consequences.

The only question here is should there be consequences in high sec? Is a game without consequences fun? I think these are some of the fundamental questions about suicide ganking.


You are asking the right questions in my opinion. Other MMO´s that were leveled to a certain degree lost their spice and as a result of it - subs.
They maybe gain subs at first but I bet there are lot of people that get bored eventually and do not even know that there are such things like pvp let alone other players outside the empire borders...

Such game hoppers visit Eve for one, maybe 3 months and wait for the next game that they can try to come out. They eventually resub after a break and play casually but they are not the target group that invests a lot of real life money continously.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Pookie McPook
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
#26 - 2012-08-28 08:10:36 UTC
What does the whole BoB saga have to do with CCP nerfing the game? Oh wait...it is a means of telling everyone how awesome James_315 is/was.

If suicide ganking of hulks was the be all and end all of hi-sec griefing and is now effectively stopped (which it isn't) then I could pretty much care less. If it was a disguised attempt by CCP to assist the repopulation of low sec then that would be of more benefit of the game as a whole. At the moment there is a populated null sec and a populated high sec with pretty much a barren wasteland in between. That is the greatest threat to EVE in my opinion, not the attracting of WoWbies into high sec where they will quickly grow bored and leave anyway.
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-08-28 08:11:57 UTC
4/10.

I had a serious reply written.
Bing Khagah
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-08-28 08:15:21 UTC
tl;dr
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#29 - 2012-08-28 08:17:28 UTC
Quote:
You are asking the right questions in my opinion. Other MMO´s that were leveled to a certain degree lost their spice and as a result of it - subs.
They maybe gain subs at first but I bet there are lot of people that get bored eventually and do not even know that there are such things like pvp let alone other players outside the empire borders...

Such game hoppers visit Eve for one, maybe 3 months and wait for the next game that they can try to come out. They eventually resub after a break and play casually but they are not the target group that invests a lot of real life money continously.


Yup this is exactly my line of thinking as well. It feels to me like the exhumer changes were in the end a sort of catering to a crowd of players who aren't really here to stay. After all, a true Eve player who takes himself seriously and is invested in the game is going to take the time to look at his exhumer fitting and adapt it to the present political situation, the threat level in empire and take the necessary precautions. After all we do this for every other type of ship or situation be it PvP or PvE.

I believe the reason mining was made the exception is because traditionally speaking this is the first Eve profession most new players are exposed to because its profitable and its the least complex aspect of the game.

It still begs the question if its that big of a deal though. After all, what does Suicide ganking really add to the game? Its not danger...I have played this game for 7 years no one has ever even attempted to suicide gank me. I've never even witnessed it first hand, its a complete mystery to me. I sometimes wonder where the hell all this activity is cause I don't see it. Besides my impression of suicide gankers is that its mostly a "im bored" career, I don't see very many people who take it seriously as profession, again, after 7 years with the exception of the few on this forum I have never even met one in game. So the impact at least on this Vet if suicide ganking was eliminated would be exactly 0%. Not to say my opinion is somehow superior, but I still don't see the conclusion here that eliminating suicide ganking would somehow alter the game or irreparably damage the game. It seems like a minor footnote in the back of the book that is Eve.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#30 - 2012-08-28 08:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
The thing is, high sec actually favours the gankers as I understand it. They can steal from miners and there is nothing the miners can do. Their corps can't defend them until they are agressed, by which time it is too late anyway. The miner has been ganked if he fights back and his wreck is looted and salvaged by an alt.

For suicide gankers, they get concorded, but again, there are no pre-emptive precautions that can be taken against them in high sec. In low sec, the corps could just kill them the moment they appear in local. You can't do that in high-sec.

Oh god.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#31 - 2012-08-28 08:34:28 UTC
Saw "Mittani.com" in the header, said "Oy Vey" and took wide pass.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-08-28 08:38:40 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Their corps can't defend them until they are agressed, by which time it is too late anyway.

Here's a perfect example of someone hiding behind ignorance of the mechanics as a defense.
After playing EVE for maybe two months I could have already told you that what you just said was wrong.

Riot Girl wrote:
For suicide gankers, they get concorded, but again, there are no pre-emptive precautions that can be taken against them in high sec. In low sec, the corps could just kill them the moment they appear in local. You can't do that in high-sec.

Which is working as intended. That doesn't need to be changed.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2012-08-28 08:39:04 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Saw "Mittani.com" in the header, said "Oy Vey" and took wide pass.


It is actually quite good as there are authers from all over eve contributing. Say what you want but the name is popular...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2012-08-28 08:40:10 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
The thing is, high sec actually favours the gankers as I understand it. They can steal from miners and there is nothing the miners can do. Their corps can't defend them until they are agressed, by which time it is too late anyway. The miner has been ganked if he fights back and his wreck is looted and salvaged by an alt.

For suicide gankers, they get concorded, but again, there are no pre-emptive precautions that can be taken against them in high sec. In low sec, the corps could just kill them the moment they appear in local. You can't do that in high-sec.


...it is called "Secure Containers"...works...really

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#35 - 2012-08-28 08:45:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
After playing EVE for maybe two months I could have already told you that what you just said was wrong.


What is wrong about it?

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Which is working as intended. That doesn't need to be changed.


I didn't say anything about changing it. I was just making a point that high sec isn't as safe for carebears as it's made out to be. Lowsec/Nullsec is actually a lot safer if they are in a strong corp.

Oh god.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#36 - 2012-08-28 08:46:32 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:

For suicide gankers, they get concorded, but again, there are no pre-emptive precautions that can be taken against them in high sec


I think that's the part I disagree with. Its just a lack of adaptation by the player base, which I don't know if its a result of the ignorance of the "how to", or simple refusal to accept that politics and circumstances of the current in game situation need to be adhered to.

Eve doesn't exist in a vacuum. Its driven by player action and player reaction and it requires players to go outside of the scope of "here is what I want to do today and here is how I want to do it" and forces players to say instead "What is going on in Eve right now and how can I take advantage of it". I think this is the part that is sorely missed by most new arrivals which again supports the idea that this most recent patch was a "lets help the noobies" patch in my opinion.

For the lack of a better way to explain it I think I will do it by example.

Your a miner. You want to mine to make ISK. There are two ways you can go about this.

You can figuire out that the Hulk fitted for the most yield is the most profitable ship to mine in, fit it, jump into a asteroid belt and start mining.
OR you can deal with the situation at hand.

There is a hulkagedon happening right now hosted by Goonswarm. There are suicide gankers who fit their destroyers a certain way (a bit of research and you can get exact fits with exact DPS). You choose to be smart. You fit a hulk with some tank on it, you find a quiet out of the way belt to mine in, you watch local, you watch for destroyers on directional scanners, you keep your ship aligned and mine with a corp mate who does the hauling for you.

The first way is how new players approach the game, a presumptuous bunch who believes CCP owes them safety. The other is a real Eve player.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-08-28 08:47:03 UTC
i wonder why so many people are so bent on seeing hisec turned into a carebear paradise, almost like a separate shard

maybe they should try a different game?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-08-28 08:48:47 UTC
I went back and read part one so that I had a good founding of where he was going. I made it about 1/4 of the way through before it was obvious that he just has some strange obsession with suicide ganking miners. Its a very weird "hobby".

I don't think that the game is going down the crapper. Each time I come back to play the game is better and better. You could say that is because the changes cater to me as a high sec player, but I don't see anything wrong with appealing to new players with a more stable high sec system. I imagine a significant portion of new players would eventually find themselves in low and null, if only they were given the chance to get their feet wet before being thrown to the wolves.

Ofcourse, I don't think the developers are trying to hide their intentions. Any good game developer is going to try and make their game better. Good games, no matter how hard, do a good job teaching the basics which are easy to learn, but hard to master.

Back a little more on topic. His whole castle of evidence falls apart when you realize that the miner changes didn't happen in a vaccum. So either CCP is revisioning all of the ship classes one by one to make sure each has a defined role and not simply a "good, better, best" progression: OR they are just doing all that work to hide their carebearing love of miners.

/crumble_tinfoil_hat

I think the truth is obvious. That guy is whacko.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#39 - 2012-08-28 08:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Quote:
i wonder why so many people are so bent on seeing hisec turned into a carebear paradise, almost like a separate shard

maybe they should try a different game?






^ Maybe you should try low sec out or perhaps null, if a safer area is not making the game enjoyable.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-08-28 08:50:50 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ Maybe you should try low sec out or perhaps null, if a safer area is not making the game enjoyable.


maybe you should accept that all this reduction in risk needs an accompanying reduction in rewards

bye-bye hisec incursions, l4s, etc

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar