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ship BPO's broken after Inferno 1.2 patch???
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Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#1 - 2012-08-17 16:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bruce Blacky
Hello,

It seems to me that the inferno 1.2 patch with the ship balancing has broken a couple ship BPOs.
due to this:
quote form patchnotes:
Quote:
* Adjusted the material costs of the Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, Rifter, Tormentor to account for removal of ship tiers within the frigate class. Increased material costs show as “extra materials” in manufacturing bills and are not returned when the ship hulls are reprocessed.
* Adjusted the material costs of the Procurer, Retriever, Covetor, Skiff, Mackinaw and Hulk as part of ship tier removal within the mining barge and exhumer ship classes. Increased material costs show as “extra materials” in manufacturing bills and are not returned when the ship hulls are reprocessed.


those BPOs are:
Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, Rifter, Tormentor, Procurer, Retriever, Covetor,
(Skiff, Mackinaw and Hulk are T2 and since i dont have the BPO of those i cant talk about that.)

I will explain why i think these are Broken on the example of the Procurer BPO.
This BPO has ME=120 and a Wastage Factor=0.1%

The Mineral requirements pre-patch (mineral/researched/original, with perfect skills):
Iso / 509 / 560
Mega / 9 / 10
Mex / 6.007 / 6.602
Nocx / 49 / 54
Pye / 14.715 / 16.173
Trit / 233.669 / 256.824
Zyd / 29 / 32

the same statistics after patch for the same BPO:
iso / 28.000 / 28.051
mega / 210 / 211
mex / 42.005 / 42.600
nocx / 2.800 / 2.805
pye / 420.012 / 421.470
trit / 1.400.193 / 1.423.348
zyd / 700 / 703

So not only the Wastage Factor is not correct anymore, also to put those BPOs on Research is a waste of Resources, since the out come does little change to the BPO it seems.

Or does it?

lets look at the numbers when putting the BPO on manufacturing, one would expect that the displayed numbers are the actual numbers that one would need to manufacture that item...right? i mean thats why you have stats on a BPO no?

ok here we go

When you want to build a Procure with the BPO having ME120 the manufacturing Quote you will be presented with is as follows:
mineral / Raw Materials / extra material / total
iso / 509 / 27.491 / 28.000
mega / 9 / 201 / 210
mex / 6007 / 35.998 / 42.005
nocx / 49 / 2.751 / 2.800
pye / 14.715 / 405.297 / 420.012
trit / 233.669 / 1.166.524 / 1.400.193
zyd / 29 / 671 / 700

so the numbers do match after all if you add up the raw materials and the new section Extra Material.
(The manufacturing numbers are also gained with a char with perfect manufacturing skills.)

However the way to decide how much research you should put on a BPO seems to have changed.
Because the Extra Materials are not effected by any skill or the ME of the BPO!!!

So i guess we now need to get a manufacturing quote before deciding how much research a BPO needs to get, just to find out about the extra materials need.

I say these ¨Extra Materials¨ need to be mentioned in the ¨Bill of Materials¨ tab maybe under a new heading ¨Extra Materials¨

Or am I terribly wrong??
Please comment

cheers
BB

edit 1: it seems that above does not apply to Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, and Rifter so i put them in strike through, as there is no "Extra Material" on their manufacturing quote
SoSiouxMe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-08-17 17:31:19 UTC
I've only got a Rifter BPO and the manufacturing quote matches the BPO. I would find it really annoying if the BPO stats didn't match the actual material requirement. Not even if it were on a separate tab - why make it more difficult? They could show it on the same Materials tab - or on the same line even:

"Isogen 350 (250 extra)"

just a suggestion, if that is truely how it is working.
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#3 - 2012-08-17 17:34:52 UTC
SoSiouxMe wrote:
I've only got a Rifter BPO and the manufacturing quote matches the BPO. I would find it really annoying if the BPO stats didn't match the actual material requirement. Not even if it were on a separate tab - why make it more difficult? They could show it on the same Materials tab - or on the same line even:

"Isogen 350 (250 extra)"

just a suggestion, if that is truely how it is working.


thanks for pointing that out.
I checked all frigates BPOs mentioned in the patchnotes and it seems 4 are NOT affected
Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, Rifter,

I have edited the OP to reflect that. (prolly happened when you were posting)
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#4 - 2012-08-17 21:59:08 UTC
Dont suppose anyone would be kind enough to pull the old and new build costs from their spreadsheets?

If its up to 21000 isogen from like 100 for a frigate that is a bit steep by CCP IMHO, especially if they only doing frigates in isolation compared to the other ship classes.
Rengerel en Distel
#5 - 2012-08-17 22:48:49 UTC
The extra materials only show when you go to build with the BP. It really should be on the BP info, but as of yet, they haven't done that.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2012-08-17 22:50:59 UTC
Ahem

Barge blueprint figures
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/17480/0/5/0/5
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/17476/0/5/0/5
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/17478/0/5/0/5

The reason for the materials being added as extra materials, is so there wasn't a massive bloom of minerals, when you could suddenly refine a procurer for 10 times it's original build cost.

And they do make the figures fully available to you. And people like me make them easily available to you. And in this case, make it really simple to see the effect ME research has.

Right now, I'm only providing up to date figures. I guess I could go and stick up other versions, depending on the db in use (though only back to incarna, as I've not converted the earlier ones.) The zofu calc (http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo ) already does this.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2012-08-17 22:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
The extra materials only show when you go to build with the BP. It really should be on the BP info, but as of yet, they haven't done that.



Just to clarify this:

The extra materials only show separately when you go to build. They are totalled into the figures on show info.









Just as a small note, these aren't the first BPs with extra materials.
Bombs, for example, have lots. As do most T2 things (which is why ME isn't so important for them, as people might think.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#8 - 2012-08-18 08:51:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Just to clarify this:

The extra materials only show separately when you go to build. They are totalled into the figures on show info.

That is absolutly correct :). I thought that i had made it clear in the OP.
BTW my excuses for the bad display of the Tables. If someone knows how to do tables in the eve forums (since HTML is not allowed) please let me know and i will adjust/edit the OP






Steve Ronuken wrote:

Just as a small note, these aren't the first BPs with extra materials.
Bombs, for example, have lots. As do most T2 things (which is why ME isn't so important for them, as people might think.)


In this case (since i do not have any of those BPO) it is even worse and they (CCP) should have changed the BPOs much earlier.
How comes no-one complaint about this earlier???
Or did i simply did not see anything in the Forums?


cheers
BB

P.S.: Steve Ronuken great tool site you have there. I might contact you in the future about it :P
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#9 - 2012-08-20 22:30:05 UTC
-------- bump -------- :P
Rengerel en Distel
#10 - 2012-08-20 22:34:56 UTC
What exactly are you bumping for?

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#11 - 2012-08-20 22:56:43 UTC
Bruce Blacky wrote:

thanks for pointing that out.
I checked all frigates BPOs mentioned in the patchnotes and it seems 4 are NOT affected
Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, Rifter,

I have edited the OP to reflect that. (prolly happened when you were posting)


AFAIK, the Merlin was already tier 3, so there'd be no real need for CCP to make it more expensive to build.

As I understand it, their purpose is to boost the tier 2 and tier 1 frigates in terms of stats, so that they become roughly equal to tier 3 frigates, and as a consequence of this, tier 2 and tier 1 frigates must be made more expensive to build.
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#12 - 2012-08-21 21:09:10 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Bruce Blacky wrote:

thanks for pointing that out.
I checked all frigates BPOs mentioned in the patchnotes and it seems 4 are NOT affected
Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, Rifter,

I have edited the OP to reflect that. (prolly happened when you were posting)


AFAIK, the Merlin was already tier 3, so there'd be no real need for CCP to make it more expensive to build.

As I understand it, their purpose is to boost the tier 2 and tier 1 frigates in terms of stats, so that they become roughly equal to tier 3 frigates, and as a consequence of this, tier 2 and tier 1 frigates must be made more expensive to build.


You might be right, but when i wrote the OP,
I assumed the CCP patch notes were correct

Quote:
Adjusted the material costs of the Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Incursus, Merlin, Punisher, Rifter, Tormentor to account for removal of ship tiers within the frigate class. Increased material costs show as “extra materials” in manufacturing bills and are not returned when the ship hulls are reprocessed.


Which turned out (after checking each one) that they are not.
So thats my fault to trust the (green colored) patch notes without chewcking.
Hence i corrected the OP.


cheers
BB
Ray Trojan
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-08-24 07:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Trojan
I am seeing some of this issue, I believe.

I am new to Eve, just finishing up the Industrial tutorial, trying to wrap my head around crafting.

I finished the Business tutorial first, and the manufacturing within it was all easy to comprehend.

I would:

1) Consult the BPC material list and gather what was needed, through mining or the market for rare minerals.
2) Set up the build, with usually a small bit of materiel left over.

This was until I accepted the final Industry mission and attempted to set up the job with the materials listed upon the Tormentor BPC. Zydrine? Check. Nocxium? Check. But Iso, Mex, Pyre, and Trit were short. The installation job quote was far off from the BPC materials list.

So, why not short on Zydrine and Nocxium? They were the only materials not listed again inside the Raw Materials window.

Therefore, I agree with Bruce that there is a glitch in the calculation system, possibly made much worse with my very new player stats.

Feel free to correct this post where I might have misunderstood the finer points.

Afterthought: I'll screenshot the BPC next to station quote. Let me know if you think it will help illuminate this possible issue.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#14 - 2012-08-24 14:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Ray Trojan wrote:
I am seeing some of this issue, I believe.

I am new to Eve, just finishing up the Industrial tutorial, trying to wrap my head around crafting.

I finished the Business tutorial first, and the manufacturing within it was all easy to comprehend.

I would:

1) Consult the BPC material list and gather what was needed, through mining or the market for rare minerals.
2) Set up the build, with usually a small bit of materiel left over.

This was until I accepted the final Industry mission and attempted to set up the job with the materials listed upon the Tormentor BPC. Zydrine? Check. Nocxium? Check. But Iso, Mex, Pyre, and Trit were short. The installation job quote was far off from the BPC materials list.

So, why not short on Zydrine and Nocxium? They were the only materials not listed again inside the Extra Materials window.

Therefore, I agree with Bruce that there is a glitch in the calculation system, possibly made much worse with my very new player stats.

Feel free to correct this post where I might have misunderstood the finer points.

Afterthought: I'll screenshot the BPC next to station quote. Let me know if you think it will help illuminate this possible issue.


edit --> never, ever use the word "crafting" when talking about making things (it's "manufacturing" here)... it makes people less inclined to believe what you're talking about when getting into things. Yeah, I know it's semantics, and people will still know what you're talking about ... BUT, that's the way things work here.

Screenshot would be a good start.

That said, based on what you're saying, I would assume something like this. (numbers completely made up).

your skills --> Production Efficiency 0

BPC -->
Tritanium (perfect) -- 1,000,000
Tritanium (you) -- 1,250,000

(rest of the minerals here)

Zydrine -- 3

Works this way because 3 * 1.25 = 3.75, which will get rounded down to 3 (for one run anyway, with 2+ runs you'd see the extra waste)


alternatively, you got the BPC pre-patch, bought the minerals based off that number, and then tried building post-patch (when the requirements were changed).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ray Trojan
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-08-25 04:53:35 UTC
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#16 - 2012-08-25 12:50:45 UTC
Ray Trojan wrote:
Screenshot of Material Mismatch


it looks indeed strange, but is not entirely the issue i was posting about.
For me the numbers on the Blueprint are correct (adding up the raw material number + extra material number for each item), but you can not use the numbers on the Blueprint to decide which level of research to apply since extra materials are not effected and not displayed on the BPO.
The extra materials are only visible in game when trying to manufacture from that particular BPO which is an unnessecary step.

In your screenshot the numbers do not add up correctly.
This might or might not be related to the patch, i do not know.

Did you try to logoff , login and re-try?
Maybe the BPO / BPC has not update its stats for some reason?


cheers
BB
Jitaseller
Terrulian Exo Arcologies
#17 - 2012-08-25 15:34:51 UTC
Extra minerals are being used in these examples as a band-aid to prevent mineral creation out of thin air from patch changes. They don't want people massing up lower material required ships before a patch then reprocessing them after to get free minerals. I'd expect that a good 6 - 12 months will go by and they will roll the extras tab into the base requirements, so that they will be normally affected by ME figures.
Bruce Blacky
Blacky Invention Research Development YinYang
#18 - 2012-09-01 15:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bruce Blacky
Jitaseller wrote:
Extra minerals are being used in these examples as a band-aid to prevent mineral creation out of thin air from patch changes. They don't want people massing up lower material required ships before a patch then reprocessing them after to get free minerals. I'd expect that a good 6 - 12 months will go by and they will roll the extras tab into the base requirements, so that they will be normally affected by ME figures.


I would be very much surprised if they will do that.
But i agree on the reason WHY they introduced the extra materials on the BPOs in game that have those (not only the once mentioned in this thread, there are more of those)
But CCP is CCP so who knows.
But until then they should change the material requirements listed on the BPOs to reflect the extra materials which are NOT effected by ME research.
To enable players to decide the ME level just from the BPO and not having to put them on manufacturing first to see the hidden extra materials on the BPO.


cheers
BB