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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#261 - 2012-08-18 21:16:49 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns).



?????????????
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#262 - 2012-08-18 21:22:42 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns).



?????????????


Nanite Interfacing, Nanite Operation.
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#263 - 2012-08-18 22:31:40 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Yeah, AFs are the easiest T2 ship in the world to train into. Prereqs: Engineering V (already a very high priority for Amarrian pilots who want to fit their ships halfway sensibly), and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns). So AFs are sort of 'free'. It's quite unlike Evasive Maneuvering (already a high priority for people who want to run lowsec camps?; not that it's not a great skill) or Electronics Upgrades (already a high priority for nobody, ever).

Missile boats in the Amarr T2 lineup: Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, Anathema, Sacrilege, Damnation, Legion (T3). Purifiers don't count. Vengeance is arguably the superior AF; Malediction is indisputably the superior Inty. There is a random launcher hardpoint on the Arbitrator, not that anybody's ever noticed.

That said, all of these ships have generous turret hardpoints. The Inquisitor wasn't a 'rocket/HAM/torp boat' like all of these; it only had generic missile bonuses, was just a clone of the Breacher.

The curse has launchers too, though even more than the arbitrator they're completely overlooked thanks to how awesome its neuts are. I think the glut of turret hardpoints are due to the very fact that all the T1 equivalents of the Khanid ships are turret boats, because there are no T1 amarr missile ships. They're grandfathered in despite being (mostly) irrelevant, there are quite a few other cases of this if I'm not mistaken.

I totally agree that the inquisitor misses the point somewhat, but we definitely need to see good rocket & HAM brawlers in the frigate and cruiser classes. It fits the very idea that CCP has been basing this rebalance around. If a player starts looking at the various T2 ships, he'll see lots of Amarr missile boats, but will have to either crosstrain or learn on T2 ships to use them. That's definitely bad design. They've been progressively working against exactly this situation for quite a while now.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#264 - 2012-08-19 11:32:37 UTC
What is this going to do to the Ishkur? Currently it's a monster because it's the only frigate that can field 5 light drones. What will happen with these new drone boats? Will the Ishkur get a damage bonus?

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2012-08-19 11:56:31 UTC
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
What is this going to do to the Ishkur? Currently it's a monster because it's the only frigate that can field 5 light drones. What will happen with these new drone boats? Will the Ishkur get a damage bonus?

While there is absolutely no basis behind this thought at all, they might give it 5 medium drones, the Ishtar can field 5 large as a crusier, so why not 5 medium for the Ishkur

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Manar Detri
#266 - 2012-08-19 15:31:39 UTC
Hello, as theres been discussion on drones themselves and having a dev reading this thread i'll slap abit of my point of view onto this.

One of the main problems for drone usage especially for drone boats is losing your drones. Losing drones can happen rather easily and show a main drawback for drones. They can be shot down which ofcourse is understandable but on top of it, it's way too easy to lose them when disengaging.

Now fozzie also spoke of sentrys regarding tristans tracking bonus and this is the drone type that faces the "loss during disengaging" the most.

So i'll suggest that all drones be fitted with a warp drive which they can use when returning to the drone bay. Basicly working in the same way as probes at the moment, you recall drones and they warp back to your drone bay. Ofcourse those drones can be recalled to warp back in only if you're within drone control range.

This kind of change would go along way to making sentry drones from awfully awkward in pve to can use in pvp.
On top of this, you'd actually be able to get your normal drones back home without them dieing during that 30 minute flight back from chasing something.

Another change i'll advocate here is a change to current normal drones, give amarr drones the same stats as minmatar ones, ofcourse with their respective damage type, and then give caldari drones the same stats as gallente ones with their own respective damage types. Why? I have gallente and minmatar drone specs at lvl 4, caldari at lvl 1 and amarr lvl 0. This pretty much sums it up.

Now on tristan itself, looks nice, but howbout adding a speed bonus to drones also? Distinguishing it as a drone boat slightly more and giving teeth against very fast ships (this is actually something i'd like to see following onto all drone boats iin the game).
El Geo
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#267 - 2012-08-19 18:07:02 UTC
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#268 - 2012-08-19 19:14:09 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
What is this going to do to the Ishkur? Currently it's a monster because it's the only frigate that can field 5 light drones. What will happen with these new drone boats? Will the Ishkur get a damage bonus?

While there is absolutely no basis behind this thought at all, they might give it 5 medium drones, the Ishtar can field 5 large as a crusier, so why not 5 medium for the Ishkur


that would be sick and not op at all... medium drones have ****** tracking so it would work nicely...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#269 - 2012-08-19 19:32:18 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
Hello, as theres been discussion on drones themselves and having a dev reading this thread i'll slap abit of my point of view onto this.

One of the main problems for drone usage especially for drone boats is losing your drones. Losing drones can happen rather easily and show a main drawback for drones. They can be shot down which ofcourse is understandable but on top of it, it's way too easy to lose them when disengaging.

Now fozzie also spoke of sentrys regarding tristans tracking bonus and this is the drone type that faces the "loss during disengaging" the most.

So i'll suggest that all drones be fitted with a warp drive which they can use when returning to the drone bay. Basicly working in the same way as probes at the moment, you recall drones and they warp back to your drone bay. Ofcourse those drones can be recalled to warp back in only if you're within drone control range.

This kind of change would go along way to making sentry drones from awfully awkward in pve to can use in pvp.
On top of this, you'd actually be able to get your normal drones back home without them dieing during that 30 minute flight back from chasing something.

Another change i'll advocate here is a change to current normal drones, give amarr drones the same stats as minmatar ones, ofcourse with their respective damage type, and then give caldari drones the same stats as gallente ones with their own respective damage types. Why? I have gallente and minmatar drone specs at lvl 4, caldari at lvl 1 and amarr lvl 0. This pretty much sums it up.

Now on tristan itself, looks nice, but howbout adding a speed bonus to drones also? Distinguishing it as a drone boat slightly more and giving teeth against very fast ships (this is actually something i'd like to see following onto all drone boats iin the game).



yeah serious eh?

i mean you would think that the galente navy would have installed warp drives on drones by now...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#270 - 2012-08-20 05:55:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie: Just wanted to say that, with a very heavy heart, I support the Kestel changes. I miss the RoF Kessy of long ago, but understand the changes that got us here. I am very glad to see it get a general damage bonus. This makes it more valuable in PvE for a young mission runner. The extra mid slot has been needed for a long time. I'm glad to see that the option of having two BCUs with rockets has been thoughtfully considered.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate.
Question: Any chance of the Caracal getting a general damage or RoF bonus? For a T1 ship, this would create a natural progression to the Raven.

Btw, how about a way to make HAM Caracals more viable?
Denuo Secus
#271 - 2012-08-20 15:25:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?:
Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships...


@CCP Fozzie, I have some questions about this:

(1) What are your plans when it comes to T1 cruisers and above? Do I understand it right, you do not plan any T1 missile ship for Amarr and Gallente at all? (no whine, just curious).

(2) Do you plan to make Roden ships to full featured missile ships?

(3) ...if so: will they be resticted to close range missiles (Gallente combat philosophy)?

(4) ...or: do you consider to remove this restriction from Khanid and don't introduce it for Roden ships? After all it would add more versatility. There is no such restriction on turret ships (bonus to close or long range turrets only). Also: both, Gallente and Amarr, are the armor tankers - slower and less agile. Especially Gallente could need some damage projection ability, imho.

Thanks for any hint!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#272 - 2012-08-20 15:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Lili Lu wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
I predict many "shoot the drones, orbit at 18km" deaths for the new tristan.


Lol, what could you possibly know? http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=173441

The proposed Tristan is incredibly powerful, almost op with it's one less slot and least speed in class. It doesn't need any adjustment. Stop whining for simply the same number of slots as other ships and for more speed. It will be a slow, but high & indestructible dps monster, that can't/won't be kited. Pray it is not (pre-)nerfed further.P

I know how to die alot in a comet. Big smile After re-thinking it a bit, I think the Tristan will be a fun little boat in gangs and I kind of look forward to trying it out. Will be testing small web drones, small energy neutralizing drones, etc.. to help with range control. My thinking is the web/neuting drones may be enough to slow opponents down and catch them. Then when they start getting shot at, release the damage drones to finish the opponent off. Also, a couple of these ships should be able to project some serious e-war onto many targets. Pick the other guys off one at at time, etc...

Then drones will get smartbombed and we'll all DIAF. But it's a T1 frigate, so...
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2012-08-20 18:50:52 UTC
Will breachers be used with that shield bonus?
I doubt it ;(

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#274 - 2012-08-20 21:40:15 UTC
Deena Amaj wrote:
Will breachers be used with that shield bonus?
I doubt it ;(

For PvE, this makes it a contender for budding mission runners.
For PvP, with an ASB it should be about as strong as a Merlin or Incursus.

Btw, better it than the Rifter. Losing the tracking bonus would nerf armor tanked Rifters.
Lili Lu
#275 - 2012-08-20 22:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
X Gallentius wrote:
[quote=Lili Lu] I know how to die alot in a comet. Big smile After re-thinking it a bit, I think the Tristan will be a fun little boat in gangs and I kind of look forward to trying it out. Will be testing small web drones, small energy neutralizing drones, etc.. to help with range control. My thinking is the web/neuting drones may be enough to slow opponents down and catch them. Then when they start getting shot at, release the damage drones to finish the opponent off. Also, a couple of these ships should be able to project some serious e-war onto many targets. Pick the other guys off one at at time, etc...

Then drones will get smartbombed and we'll all DIAF. But it's a T1 frigate, so...

Ceratinly it is good to stay optimistic in a game. However, it still seems odd on the part of the rebalancing team to give it less speed than the missile kiter, and short it a slot in comparison to all the other ones. I fear your original assessment is the correct one.

It still presents the why can't they recognize the problem with forcing gallente ships to fight close with blasters yet allow everything else to kite them. And also the lack of recognizing the continued split weapon problem they create with drone boats. Increasing a drone bay should be no big deal either. Bandwidth worries are understandable.

Possibly just giving it the missing slot, probably a low, could even things out even if they don't fix it's lack of speed. It would mean fitting an obligatory nanofiber or overdrive to compensate for the lack of speed. Web drones will just get killed easily by the improved light missiles on the way.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#276 - 2012-08-20 22:21:23 UTC
Shocked That Tristan Shocked

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#277 - 2012-08-21 00:29:08 UTC
How come the breacher doesn't get a 10% shield boost bonus per level?

The incursus get 10% armor repairer effectiveness per level.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#278 - 2012-08-21 02:04:55 UTC
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
How come the breacher doesn't get a 10% shield boost bonus per level?

The incursus get 10% armor repairer effectiveness per level.



asb... and the fact you get repped at the beginning and not the end...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2012-08-21 02:05:55 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
Deena Amaj wrote:
Will breachers be used with that shield bonus?
I doubt it ;(

For PvE, this makes it a contender for budding mission runners.
For PvP, with an ASB it should be about as strong as a Merlin or Incursus.

Btw, better it than the Rifter. Losing the tracking bonus would nerf armor tanked Rifters.



Makes sense.

The only thing that bothers me is if it is that worthy for the pvp job. ASB/Shield tanking of course does not make it that much of a free killmail as it at this moment on TQ. But I still miss that-distinct-something.

But I am probably expecting too much.
It is already going to be better than the current Breacher, starting with the drones. I just wish there were a few more lightweight features.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#280 - 2012-08-21 13:17:45 UTC
Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2)
Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-1)
Cargo capacity: 140

WHY???? WHY????

Why do you guys hate the Gallente so much?

You are taking the best frig the Gallente have and beating it to death. The Tristan was a great frig.

BIG MINUS 1

Be polite.

Be professional.

But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.