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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#161 - 2012-08-17 04:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Kethry Avenger wrote:

Actually some quick pyfa-ing says this is incorrect. It is true for all Amarr ships. All Gallente BS can use 425's on their own and stay cap stable. Rokh is also cap stable with just guns. Apoc can use dual beams but past that it is not stable. But who uses dual beams on an Apoc. And when they changed the bonus on the Apoc to more optimal they also buffed the hull's cap.


And that is what we call shifting goalposts. You made an assertion about the Geddon capping out (Caps out with 1 HS) and then tested the other battleships with no damage mods. Love it! Here's something a bit more balanced:
Geddon caps out with 1 MFS
Rokh caps out with 1 MFS
Hype caps out with 1 MFS
Mega caps out with 3 MFS

Quote:

The punisher yes. The others not so much. PIE is taking a break from FW and not much use for frigates outside lowsec.

Below is some quick EFTing.. Perfect skills, T2 guns.

However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.

The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns... I'm fairly certain the other 3 in this group will be. Medium range to me means outside, web scram range, which means MWD.

The Punisher is cap stable with a Nos or a Afterburner which is a perfectly viable setups, but they also gave it 2 bonuses and buffed its cap.

So yes all the frigates they have buffed are better in general. They all have better defined roles. But Amarr are still having ships without a defining second bonus and are more cap unstable than the other races.


Comments:
- If the Punisher is viable with an AB setup, why wouldn't the Tormentor be? It actually works better than the MWD version because it doesn't have the optimal bonus to make Med Pulse work at long point range. See below.
- The Executioner is cap stable with both Pulse and Beam fits. The lack of an optimal bonus places the same limitation from the Tormentor on the Pulse Executioner. See below.
- Ultimately, the problem here is that you're EFTING instead of PVPING. The new ships are ******* amazing.

I face tanked a Hawk and then a Thrasher. Literally face tanked. No implants, links, etc. Also, cap stable.
[Executioner, DLP-ASB]
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

1MN Afterburner II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small 'Knave' Energy Drain

Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I
Small Energy Metastasis Adjuster I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I

I solo killed a pair of Incursus with this, and then a Brutix. I did call in help on the Brutix as I passed peak shield recharge. Then I solo killed a Claw with it.

[Executioner, Beam Executioner]
Heat Sink II
F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S
[empty high slot]

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Ancillary Current Router I

This works best with an AB because you just can't squeeze quite enough range out of Medium Pulse. Cap stable, but lacks a high slot for a nos which hurts it compared to the Executioner. I also prefer the Executioner for the Beam setup because raw speed and agility is so important. :)

[Tormentor, Kiting]
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I


Hornet EC-300 x2

Quote:
And aren't Amarr supposed to be the best at Cap? or did this change?


No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?

-Liang

Ed: Formatting

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2012-08-17 04:42:59 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:
However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.

The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns...


An Executioner with max skills is cap stable with pulse lasers, MWD, and warp disruptor. With beams it's unstable, yeah, but you're not going to be using Aurora unless you're engaging a brick; it's stable with Microwave crystals, and it has 42 minutes of cap with Radio crystals. At less than max skills - even, with pretty good cap skills and multiple 3% implants that help its cap - it's not cap stable with either pulse+Scorch or beams, but it's still not bad on cap.

Yeah, a warp disruptor murders a Tormentor's cap, but apart from the drones a Tormentor isn't any more "medium range" than any Amarr frig without a range bonus. Just "medium range combat vessel" as "laser frigate".


The medium range quote was quoting CCP Yitterbium. This is their stated design goal.

The Atron seems to fit 150's, point and mwd and stay cap stable. Since this is the only other turret cap using Attack frigate, I have to compare the Executioner to that. The Condor and Slasher have no problem with there 0 cap weapons
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#163 - 2012-08-17 04:43:14 UTC
Hrett wrote:
I don't think Ive ever seen one in the wild.


The start of one of my PVP videos is me "blobbing" a Rifter. But the clever observer will notice we're all in mining frigates. :)

Quote:
And I just have to say - thank you guys so much for the re-balancing. Frigates are sexy now. I am in love with the Atron.


Hell yes - the Atron is so awesome. It's almost as awesome as the Executioner!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-08-17 04:46:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?

-Liang


With the most cap to support their hunger.

And before the projectiles and hybrids were buffed. They had an inherent advantage, now they are better in some ways, worse others. And I am arguing unbalanced on their cap use.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#165 - 2012-08-17 04:52:14 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?

-Liang


With the most cap to support their hunger.

And before the projectiles and hybrids were buffed. They had an inherent advantage, now they are better in some ways, worse others. And I am arguing unbalanced on their cap use.


Ok, so let's take a look at that (max skills, AB fit or not fit at all):
Punisher: 531 cap
Tormentor: 500 cap
Incursus: 463 cap
Executioner: 450 cap
Merlin: 438 cap
Atron: 413 cap
Condor: 375 cap
Rifter: 313 cap
Slasher: 300 cap

So.... yeah. Looks fine?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2012-08-17 05:05:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:

Actually some quick pyfa-ing says this is incorrect. It is true for all Amarr ships. All Gallente BS can use 425's on their own and stay cap stable. Rokh is also cap stable with just guns. Apoc can use dual beams but past that it is not stable. But who uses dual beams on an Apoc. And when they changed the bonus on the Apoc to more optimal they also buffed the hull's cap.


And that is what we call shifting goalposts. You made an assertion about the Geddon capping out (Caps out with 1 HS) and then tested the other battleships with no damage mods. Love it! Here's something a bit more balanced:
Geddon caps out with 1 MFS
Rokh caps out with 1 MFS
Hype caps out with 1 MFS
Mega caps out with 3 MFS


Yes as in the Abaddon, and Apoc(with certain guns)(already been buffed on cap some) aren't cap stable even before using a HS. Which makes them worse...

Oh and the
Domi is cap stable with 3 MFS, 425's antimatter

Abaddon is cap unstable even with just the smallest large guns, multifreq
Apoc is cap unstable with Mega beams or Tachyons, multifreq
Geddon is cap unstable with smallest large pulse, dual heavy pulse and one HS, or any other large gun and no HS, multifreq

Why you put a MFS on a Geddon I don't know. Probably cause its as late for you as it is for me.

All your non-Amarr examples are using the most cap intense Hybrid 425, with antimatter. And they are all cap stable without damage mods.

No Amarr ship could fit Tachyons and be cap stable. Only Apoc can fit Megapulse and be cap stable.

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2012-08-17 05:11:31 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


No, Amarr have always been the most cap intensive race. I'm not really sure what would make you think they wouldn't be?

-Liang


With the most cap to support their hunger.

And before the projectiles and hybrids were buffed. They had an inherent advantage, now they are better in some ways, worse others. And I am arguing unbalanced on their cap use.


Ok, so let's take a look at that (max skills, AB fit or not fit at all):
Punisher: 531 cap
Tormentor: 500 cap
Incursus: 463 cap
Executioner: 450 cap
Merlin: 438 cap
Atron: 413 cap
Condor: 375 cap
Rifter: 313 cap
Slasher: 300 cap

So.... yeah. Looks fine?

-Liang


And if they adjust the cap recharge time to make them comparably cap stable to other ships in there role/class with similar fittings then they would be balanced. But the cap per sec is almost identical to other ships of the same role/class, because the cap recharge time is slower. Which leaves them, I argue, cap unbalanced compared to other ships, and why I keep harping on about either the lasers or all the Amarr hulls needing a fundamental buff to cap stability. With the added bonus of being able to give Amarr ships a second bonus, which doesn't have to be more damage, or more tank, it could be lots of things but it should be there.

Add by the way I am impressed at how fast you can pull up stats. (not joking seriously impressed.)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#168 - 2012-08-17 05:19:10 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:

And if they adjust the cap recharge time to make them comparably cap stable to other ships in there role/class with similar fittings then they would be balanced. But the cap per sec is almost identical to other ships of the same role/class, because the cap recharge time is slower. Which leaves them, I argue, cap unbalanced compared to other ships, and why I keep harping on about either the lasers or all the Amarr hulls needing a fundamental buff to cap stability. With the added bonus of being able to give Amarr ships a second bonus, which doesn't have to be more damage, or more tank, it could be lots of things but it should be there.


I dunno, I already showed realistic battle tested cap stable versions of the ships you claim can't do it. I just don't see the problem.

Quote:
Add by the way I am impressed at how fast you can pull up stats. (not joking seriously impressed.)


Thanks! :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kelsar Hemah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2012-08-17 07:53:35 UTC
Mostly looked at the tristan.

Its missing 1 slot properly from low so it has 10 like the rest off the combat frigs. I really dont think you can argue that it should have less then every other combat frig. If it get to good you could lower the bandwidth to 20 instead of 25 to decease its damage output.

It could also really need a few more powergrid, and in general it got some off the lowest cpu and powergrid numbers among the frigs. In general i dislike that your trying to dictate that these 3 frigs have to be use as range by gimping the fitting on them for adding tank while fitting close range guns.

It is also very slow, and properly will be one off the slowest frigs in the game, which is weird when Gallente is supose to be the second fastest race.

The utility slot is fairly useless, if kiting you cant really use it as you wouldnt cap out anything before they will kill you. and in close the takes up the powergrid you need to use for tank to live long enough for it to have any effect. Unless you downgrade your guns to electrons in which case I would much rather be without.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2012-08-17 08:03:14 UTC
I am tired of seeing gallente with drone hybrid gun combo ships, let gallente have a line of dedicated drone ships, like caldari has a line of missile ships and a line of hybrid ships, minmatar has projectile lines and missile lines, amarr has laser ships, some missile ships, and some drone ships, but only gallente has to train both drone AND hybrid to use there drone weapon line.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2012-08-17 09:00:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I am tired of seeing gallente with drone hybrid gun combo ships, let gallente have a line of dedicated drone ships, like caldari has a line of missile ships and a line of hybrid ships, minmatar has projectile lines and missile lines, amarr has laser ships, some missile ships, and some drone ships, but only gallente has to train both drone AND hybrid to use there drone weapon line.


I am not convinced by an all drone boat approach (except for mission boats). With drones being destructible you could easily find yourself with no dps and no means of reloading drones. If anything due to a lack of a bonus and fitting constraints the tristans turret dps is possibly too low. With something like a Vexor my drones may be destroyed but I have significant turret dps to finish an opponent with (plus they have spent time shooting drones not me)

Without an overhaul of drone mechanics I am unsure all drone boats are viable.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#172 - 2012-08-17 09:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Clancy
CCP Fozzie, I don't mean to doubt about drone tracking bonus of Tristan, but there is some concerns amongst the people about its usefullness for small drones. Will this really do any difference in the hitting against moving/orbiting targets (i. e. other small drones)? Maybe it's better to improve optimal/orbit range?

Check this in the test environments please.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#173 - 2012-08-17 10:07:10 UTC
Kelsar Hemah wrote:
The utility slot is fairly useless, if kiting you cant really use it


Put it between your guns -> overheat longer.

Kelsar Hemah wrote:
and in close the takes up the powergrid you need to use for tank to live long enough for it to have any effect. Unless you downgrade your guns to electrons in which case I would much rather be without.


You do 100 DPS with drones alone and then do 200 DPS when in Antimatter range (with no rigs or MFS). You have full tackle. A single DCII tank gives you 3500 EHP against every damage type (with a shallow Thermal hole). Two CCC rigs and your already strong recharge lets you run guns+AB+tackle+SAR for five minutes; substitute MWD and it's 40sec (but at 60% stability when not running the SAR). Overheat your MWD and with one Overdrive you're going 4200m/sec - there are a lot of faster ships that you can catch off-guard with that. Drop to an 'Accommodation' SAR and you can fit a nos (+ PG implant if using hybrid rigs) or a neut.

The only thing you can't do is fit plates without some pain. Neutrons + MWD + tackle + DCII + 200mm puts you 1.03% over PG. Add a module that costs only 1PG and you'll need an ACR rig or a +5% implant.

Is that the end of the world? An Executioner with Medium Pulse Laser II and otherwise the same fit is looking at being 7.38% over on PG. And also at 93 DPS with Scorch - less damage than you do with drones alone, with way less range. An active armor Rifter has a weaker tank to hybrid damage than you do with a DCII alone, with much less DPS and not much of a speed advantage and a far weaker capacitor. I dunno, Rifters used to seem pretty good.

But obviously the Tristan needs some heavy buffs, still. Like the ability to have a full flight of ECM drones in addition to damage drones. Or to have close to half the tank of a brick Punisher while having better than twice the DPS of one + total range control. Or to not have to fit speed mods to be as fast as an Imperial Navy Slicer.

Honestly, *shrug*
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#174 - 2012-08-17 10:33:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.


came back next morning looking for blob'o'text with a mention of the inquisitor, left dissapointed :(
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#175 - 2012-08-17 10:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Thanks for all these fast updates, great work!

I, for one, am very very excited about the suggested Tristan <3333 finally a proper drone combat frig in line with Vexor et al. I see absolutely no problem with the dual weapon system, blasters and drones is a great combination, and the turret tracking bonus on Tristan also works with small rails. And woot, two tracking+hp bonused Hammerheads+Hob? Oh yes please :)

Missiles have always been a strange little dog in Gallente lineup, and this change of course could possibly mean that Lachesis & Arazu get more drone capability- which would be excellent, we need a proper drone recon as well!

All in all this frig revamp is one of the best things that has happened in a long time, frigates are easily among the most fun ships to fly, and improving them pleases both new players and vets.

Good going, sir :)

.
Sakari Orisi
Doomheim
#176 - 2012-08-17 10:52:18 UTC
Are these on sisi yet ? I'm itching to make a pyfa build with all these but I need them in the cache :D

The evefit project Pyfa thread Phobos thread
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2012-08-17 11:32:50 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.


came back next morning looking for blob'o'text with a mention of the inquisitor, left dissapointed :(



The fact that CCP Fozzie said he was going into a meeting and would post loads of info after the meeting and then not posting anything may suggest things have changed. I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't make a post after saying he would. He does appear to be very interactive on the forums when he has info and reasons about decisions that have been made and answering feedback.

This sudden bout of silence after "a meeting" could mean a change in direction.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#178 - 2012-08-17 11:34:50 UTC
or he went to bed after long meeting , he needs his beauty sleep Smile

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-08-17 11:42:43 UTC
I thought he was pretty enough!
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#180 - 2012-08-17 11:44:02 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Do you see where I am coming from, Gallente is the only race that has to train two weapon systems to get the most use out of their ship. Could you imagine how much complaining there would be if minmatar had projectile and missile bonuses?


oh, so you think you just train projectiles?
and by the way i do not hear complaining about the typhoon, which does have bonuses for projectiles and and missiles.
actually typhoon is awesome. you may also have a look at the huginn, which also has split bonuses and is thought to be a good ship.

to get the most variety out of your minmatar ships you need to train projectiles, drones, missiles. if you don't you miss potential, typhoon is the best example.