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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2012-08-17 00:20:43 UTC
Not elite enough to comment on specific stats, but thanks in advance for making frigates interesting again.

While you're tiericiding everything, please keep this in mind: If the ships are too focused in a specific role, you're not really adding choices. You're just moving those choices from how people fit their Rifters to what hull they fly to do a specific thing. When all's said and done, during an encounter I want to say "that ship is good at X, Y, and a little of Z, but I'm not sure what decision the pilot actually made" rather than "oh, he's flying ship X, which means I always counter with Y."

Occasionally plays sober
Lili Lu
#142 - 2012-08-17 00:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
serras bang wrote:
like changes on the kestral but you do know the kestral will now fire rmissles in excess of 60k now ? perhaps even hitting 70k ? and still be capable of a top speed of over 2.4k ms

Precisely. This is what I'm noticing with the frig rebalancing that is rather bad. Caldari are being given extreme weapon range. Range that no other frigs and destroyers can even get close to. What is it with 10% range bonuses with Caldari ships. How about 5% or 7.5%. Other races live with those sized bonuses. Also, give some range bonuses to other races. Missile range skills are both 10% per level. Then you give one or two 10% range bonuses with the ships. Then this gets applied to light missiles and rails, the two longest range small weapons systems. It's frickin crazyWhat?

At the same time the new Caldari small ships are able to make use of the new asbs with resist bonuses and a free mid for a td and thus they can end up brawling better than other frigs specifically designed for brawling and in no way able to kite or snipe. Examples of this being new Cormorants, Condors, Merlins, and the Hookbill.

It's one thing to have racial preferences in combat styles. It's another thing to make only one race capable of a whole style of combat and the other races not able to engage in that style. Unfortunately it appears the latest changes are making the game more heavily tilted toward the latter. Now to some this might not be a bad thing (to me it is) but it's even worse if you also allow that same one race alone to avoid the combat role straightjacket and not the other races.

As to the specifics of the latest changes. I've already mentioned my puzzlement with the Kestral extreme range.

Why is the tristan shorted a slot? You do not give a drone damage bonus. So what is the rationale? If you look at the drone boats at larger sizes the Myrm and Domi (and scorp a similar design feature), they actually get a compensatory non-high slot for losing a couple highs. You limit the tristan to two gun slots and a utility. And then you do not give it the customary compensatory non-high slot. Also, what's with the sig radius changes? -9m for the kestral yet you leave the tristan at 41? This seems extreme. Is Caldari now going to have no downside for their shield tanks? Then fitting tristan 35pg and 130cpu, kestral 45pwg 180cpu WTF QuestionWhat? And if a kestral needs 45pwg why does a breacher only need 35pwg? Is one launcher really worth 10pg and does one launcher really equal 2 light drones? Lastly speed, the tristan is the slowest? Why are you stepping it into the former Caldari position in this regard.

You appear to be exagerating the racial differences in ships while at the same time granting only one of those races beneficial exemptions from its former relative shortcomings. I really can't believe what I'm seeing. It makes no sense. If this carries on to the larger ships you might as well just delete Gallente and Amarr and armor tanking in general. The eve-kill top twenty has been dominated by shield ships for a while, months, years, and it keeps getting more extreme every month. If Caldari is going to become faster than Gallente, remain more tanky, retain and even increase engagement range and kiting abilities, and still have the best ewar, do us all a favor and just delete Gallente from the database. The only gallente ship in the top twenty is the Lachesis and that is there for it's long tackle role and oh btw it shield tanks and uses missiles Lol

edit- and stop throwing a stupid increase of 2.5% in active armor tanking to Gallente as if it will make a difference. It doesn't and it won't. It marginally helps pve tanking. It means fuckall for pvp. Unless you are going to introduce an equivalent op ancilliary armor repairer line? Also the adaptive armor hardener is weaksauce or worse (like cap wise for a frig). Wake the **** up you guys.Ugh
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#143 - 2012-08-17 01:32:32 UTC
Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions)

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#144 - 2012-08-17 01:35:35 UTC
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions)



you want faster drones fit a mod or rig...

but you cant do that for HP... and when it comes to drones more HP means alot!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2012-08-17 01:42:49 UTC
I'm kinda happy with the changes to the tristan. I think CCP is right: aside from the bomber, the gallente have no "in house" missile options. I'm not sure taking away the two missile turrets were an ideal option, but I more than welcome the added drones.


BTW, is the navi going to be a kiter/sniper now?

I can has blogging skills!
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#146 - 2012-08-17 01:45:04 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
What is it with 10% range bonuses with Caldari ships. How about 5% or 7.5%. Other races live with those sized bonuses.


The Apocalypse has a +7.5% optimal bonus per level, so a +37.5% bonus at max skills. The Heretic only has a +5% bonus -- but that's with rockets. Purifiers don't count. Every other Amarr hull with a range bonus tops out at +50%: Coercer, Slicer, Retribution, Zealot.

So Amarr and Caldari are better at damage projection than Minmatar and Gallente. That's not new - that's built into the weapon systems they use, before any hull bonuses. It's also not new that Amarr and Caldari have resist bonuses and heavier tanks whereas Minmatar/Gallente, if they have tanking bonuses, have them to active tanking.

It's weird how people keep reacting to tiericide's reinforcement of patterns that already exist. Woah, an Amarr boat with a huge drone bay? What a crazy idea!

Anyway, Inquisitor's not getting Kestrel-like bonuses? ... well, I wanted to skill up Caldari for Sansha ships anyway.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#147 - 2012-08-17 01:45:34 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:

BTW, is the navi going to be a kiter/sniper now?


nope... ccp muppet alluded that its going to be a logi line frig...

they are running it by the csm first then letting us know for sure!

TBH i am supper excited about it!!!

also fingers crossed at a tech II version aswell!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#148 - 2012-08-17 01:48:18 UTC
oh because CCP Muppet is my new fav dev (tallest wont talk to us no more :( ....)

here is a list of his best jokes!
Fozzie: OK, so a guy asks me 'Did you take a bath today?' and I said Why is there one missing? Wocka Wocka Wocka!

Skeeter: Wasn't that great? I love march songs!
Fozzie: Personally, I like April songs. Get it, March, April...Wocka Wocka Wocka!

Fozzie: What do you get when you put chocolate pudding in your mother's shoes? Give up? You get a spanking! Wocka Wocka Wocka!

Skeeter: The first event, the 100 meter tree swing!
Fozzie: They're gonna swing a tree? Gee, those monkeys must be strong!

Fozzie: Why do movie stars have lots of fans? Give up? Because their HOT!

Fozzie: There was this sailor that was SO fat
Sailor: How fat was he?
Fozzie: Uh ... He was so fat that everybody liked him, and there was nothing funny about him at all.

Fozzie: What did the big dragon say to the mouse? Give up. Nothing! Dragons can't talk!

Rowlf: Why don't you wear shoes Fozzie?
Fozzie: Why should I? I'd still have bear feet. Wocka Wocka Wocka!

Fozzie: Did I tell you the one about the man with the lightbulb in his nose? He was lightheaded! Get it? Wocka Wocka Wocka!

Fozzie: Why are fish so smart? Give up? 'Cause they swim in schools.

Piggy: Scooter, if you had ten hot dogs and Skeeter took three of them what would you have?
Fozzie: He'd have a tummy ache! Wocka Wocka Wocka!

Fozzie: Why did the man put a sweater on his hot dog? Because it was a chili dog. Wocka Wocka Wocka!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2012-08-17 01:50:39 UTC
when i look at the graphical design of the tristan, i see something who looks to be quick, and with a front shield.
too bad this can't happen on his stats.

also gallente needs missiles ships, if they don't have any, noobs won't be able to try missiles at all.
Lili Lu
#150 - 2012-08-17 01:56:31 UTC
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions)

unfortunately a drone speed bonus is not as great as you might think due to drone mechanics of mwd, orbit, and tracking
Lili Lu
#151 - 2012-08-17 02:00:55 UTC
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
when i look at the graphical design of the tristan, i see something who looks to be quick, and with a front shield.
too bad this can't happen on his stats.

also gallente needs missiles ships, if they don't have any, noobs won't be able to try missiles at all.

Nbd really. The only thing Gallente would need missiles for is bombers. Caldari don't get much dronage. Yet both races have to train those weapon support skills for each.

For Gallente the more pressing missile concern is the atrocius agility on the Nemesis. That should not be a difficult fix for CCP to do. Either reduce it's mass or make the agility multiplier better. It does not need to wait until years from now they finally get to "rebalancing" tech II frigates.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-08-17 02:12:02 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions)

unfortunately a drone speed bonus is not as great as you might think due to drone mechanics of mwd, orbit, and tracking

They tried a speed bonus on the Maulus, it didnt end well.
i like the drone buff, but i would still like to see it lass as a drone hybrid ship and more of a drone ship.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#153 - 2012-08-17 02:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Any way we can get that drone HP changed to Drone Speed, and like... really fast speed. That way the Tristan could become a pretty gnarly anti-frig, especially anti-ceptor (t1, atron, and t2, Ares, versions)

unfortunately a drone speed bonus is not as great as you might think due to drone mechanics of mwd, orbit, and tracking

They tried a speed bonus on the Maulus, it didnt end well.
i like the drone buff, but i would still like to see it lass as a drone hybrid ship and more of a drone ship.


best drone buff ever would be the ability to use nano repair paste on drones when they are in your bay... instead of repairing heat damage they would repair the drone back up to 100% hp takes like 15-30 seconds per to to repair...

you could even have ship bonus that could reduce the time and amount of paste needed to repair a drone... now thats a skill bonus i would like to see.

i am still a sad sad man at the fact you cant recall drones and have insta repaired shields on themOops

TBH that one move killed attack drones from pvp...

now drones are good for pve or ecm drones for pvp...

i still got a few domi's setup at nuet/sentries and that works nice but not being able to rep your drones and at the same time take away aggro is a real limitation on their respective use.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-08-17 02:23:59 UTC
Do you see where I am coming from, Gallente is the only race that has to train two weapon systems to get the most use out of their ship. Could you imagine how much complaining there would be if minmatar had projectile and missile bonuses?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2012-08-17 03:05:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:

Armageddon is not underpowered. Its not cap stable but not under powered.

Just fitting Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers II and one heat sink with perfect skills will have the Geddon run out of cap. Lasers in general with all the buffs to Hybrids and Projectiles aren't so good that it should be okay for that to be true.

And for comparison, lets say you do fit a cap booster. Every boost you use gets you less than it does on a Hybrid because the straight cap amount needed is so much more with lasers. Oh and because Amarr have small (expensive) ammo and cargo holds, you have less cap booster charges than other ships.


This is true for all battleships that require cap to fire their guns.



Actually some quick pyfa-ing says this is incorrect. It is true for all Amarr ships. All Gallente BS can use 425's on their own and stay cap stable. Rokh is also cap stable with just guns. Apoc can use dual beams but past that it is not stable. But who uses dual beams on an Apoc. And when they changed the bonus on the Apoc to more optimal they also buffed the hull's cap.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:

Other than getting rid of the cap use bonus, what replaces it I am less concerned with as it doesn't have to be something that bonuses straight damage or damage projection. But giving Amarr two useful bonuses on their ships does seem to be fair. Or how they make that possible and balanced. They could fix all the hulls to be viable with laser cap use or just change laser cap use.

And I'm posting in this thread cause they are balancing Amarr ships that still have the cap use bonus and no one from CCP has answered any of the threads about it. (That I know of, please link me something if I'm wrong.)


I do not believe that lasers on good ships are gimped next to projectiles or hybrids. There exist poor ships which will be addressed in tierification. Either way, the cap use bonus is not the culprit here and it's absolutely trivial to create ships with the cap use bonus that are ******* awesome.

Furthermore, you bring up the new Amarr ships that are getting balanced as if they're bad because they have a laser cap use bonus. Seriously? Have you flown them? They are ******* awesome.

-Liang


The punisher yes. The others not so much. PIE is taking a break from FW and not much use for frigates outside lowsec.

Below is some quick EFTing.. Perfect skills, T2 guns.

However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.

The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns... I'm fairly certain the other 3 in this group will be. Medium range to me means outside, web scram range, which means MWD.

The Punisher is cap stable with a Nos or a Afterburner which is a perfectly viable setups, but they also gave it 2 bonuses and buffed its cap.

So yes all the frigates they have buffed are better in general. They all have better defined roles. But Amarr are still having ships without a defining second bonus and are more cap unstable than the other races.

And aren't Amarr supposed to be the best at Cap? or did this change?
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-08-17 03:17:19 UTC
Well, as a member of fac war I think a logi frigate is going to be pretty cool for minor plexes. It will be nice to see the Navitas hull finally. I don't think Ive ever seen one in the wild.

Tristan as a drone boat is a nice idea. I would really argue that it needs 50m3 drone bay for two full flights of lights. I lose drones all of the time in cruisers and BCs. Frigates being far faster, drones will get left behind far more often. If you are going to give it a 'loseable' weapon system, please at least give it one full reload.

And I just have to say - thank you guys so much for the re-balancing. Frigates are sexy now. I am in love with the Atron.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
quigibow
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-08-17 03:26:14 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:


best drone buff ever would be the ability to use nano repair paste on drones when they are in your bay... instead of repairing heat damage they would repair the drone back up to 100% hp takes like 15-30 seconds per to to repair...

you could even have ship bonus that could reduce the time and amount of paste needed to repair a drone... now thats a skill bonus i would like to see.

i am still a sad sad man at the fact you cant recall drones and have insta repaired shields on themOops

TBH that one move killed attack drones from pvp...

now drones are good for pve or ecm drones for pvp...

i still got a few domi's setup at nuet/sentries and that works nice but not being able to rep your drones and at the same time take away aggro is a real limitation on their respective use.


this.
Sard Caid
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#158 - 2012-08-17 03:29:23 UTC
I think they're fantastic ways to interpret these ships and look very entertaining to fly! I'm looking forward to these on sisi for some testing.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#159 - 2012-08-17 03:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Kethry Avenger wrote:
However the Executioner is the only attack frigate that is not cap stable with guns, mwd, and point. The other 3 are fine. Caldari and Minmatar obviously better off with there 0 cap weapons.

The Tormentor "Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel " is not cap stable with a point, mwd and guns...


An Executioner with max skills is cap stable with pulse lasers, MWD, and warp disruptor. With beams it's unstable, yeah, but you're not going to be using Aurora unless you're engaging a brick; it's stable with Microwave crystals, and it has 42 minutes of cap with Radio crystals. At less than max skills - even, with pretty good cap skills and multiple 3% implants that help its cap - it's not cap stable with either pulse+Scorch or beams, but it's still not bad on cap.

Yeah, a warp disruptor murders a Tormentor's cap, but apart from the drones a Tormentor isn't any more "medium range" than any Amarr frig without a range bonus. Just "medium range combat vessel" as "laser frigate".
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-08-17 03:47:14 UTC
What if the Tristan were to be some thing like this. (* by the changes)
Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-2*), 4 M (+1*), 4 L (+1*), 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2)
Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 50 (+45*)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-1)
Cargo capacity: 140

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.