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New dev blog: Ship Balancing: Mining Barges

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Lazaro Lazarides
1st Airborne Division
#421 - 2012-08-10 08:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lazaro Lazarides
I would like to discuss a few things

Firs:
I think you have destroyed the industry of the cargohold optimizations tec 2 because now only the transport ships will be rig this type of rigs. And the people that have it (like me) in the macki only for can do 2 cycles of mining now we have the amazing capacity of cargohold of 621 m3 and I spent only 100 M for this.......I think they should allow to remove the rigs from the mining ships OR change they affect to the ore hold too.
And the second comment is for the ore hold of hulk
ONLY 8500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the skiff have 15000!!!!!!!!! or mackinaw 35000!!!! (with the skills at 5)
Thats was te worst change of the new patch. Before you can have whit the EX cargohold more than 17000 m3 and now.... you can only mining wiht orca.
The diference between hulk and skiff is negligible and the people will be prefere to use skiff becaus they only mining a litle less but the have a lot of ore hold.

I would like to propose

Introduce the change that the rigs of cargohold optimization will affect the ore hold OR
Introduce in the orca the same skill that have the macki
Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to ore hold capacity

And reduce the cargohold ore of the skiff

The last change i would allow remove all rigs of the mining ships

Thx for all

PD: Ore hold optimizations rigs??? not bad idea
Lazaro Lazarides
1st Airborne Division
#422 - 2012-08-10 08:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lazaro Lazarides
Ore hold optimizations rigs??? not bad idea
Dave stark
#423 - 2012-08-10 08:13:05 UTC
Lazaro Lazarides wrote:
Ore hold optimizations rigs??? not bad idea


terrible idea.
Sigras
Conglomo
#424 - 2012-08-10 08:16:03 UTC
Tainted Greek wrote:
Where to start?... First I’d like to thank those who focused only on my comment that EVE was a sandbox… and should be left alone… WOW you guys set me straight with your own perverted views on what it’s definition is! People will always perceive things how they want to suit themselves… it proves it when people reject definitions from dictionary’s, encyclopedias etc and substitute it for their own.


Could you then please define what YOU think a sandbox is? because a careful reading of your last [strike]whine[/strike] post seemed to say that a sandbox game should allow you to do whatever you want to do, and that the game developers should not give you any nuance about what you're "supposed to do"

If this is true, could you please give me an example of what you think a "sandbox game" is? and really how do you think the game should resolve a situation where two different people want to do opposite things?

(note the page you linked says "considerable freedom" not "total freedom") Who's definition of a sandbox game is perverted?

Tainted Greek wrote:
My argument has not changed …

It made perfect sense before the changes… The Hulk was king… it was the biggest and could do everything well… with the long training invested, it provided a logical autonomous or fleet solution for the miner. You had options (limited) as to how you fit it to suit your gameplay. That should not have changed! The buffs should have been in line with the lesser barges.

so you want to not have to make any decisions about what ship to mine in, you just want there to be one obvious best choice and to be able to mindlessly pick that one?

Like how in PvP there is always an obvious best choice? RollRollRoll
You know before this change, when people asked "whats the best mining ship" everyone always said "the Hulk" now people say "it depends" you have to make a choice, and as Sid Meier once said "A game is a series of interesting choices."

Tainted Greek wrote:
Why the hell didn’t the DEV team simply balance things in a balanced manner?!!!

They could have given balanced incremental bonus’s to all the barges that were for the most part useless…
The redefining of ship roles could have been the introduction of T3 EXHUMERS that specialised in a skill path and provided the option of a narrowing and specializing in types/classes of mining.

T3 has always been about generalizing not specializing, in fact, specializing has always been relegated to T2

The devs did balance things, before there was one obviously "best" choice and now there are three depending on your play style, thats balance

Tainted Greek wrote:
Just keep dumbing the game down, making changes that belong in a realm of fantasy and magic and more and more veterans will leave, fed up with the sugar coated BULL SHITE

What’s done is done… thanks to everyone for their “help” but I don’t have to like it.
If I wanted to play pure fantasy I would be playing some other game all this time....


How is giving someone MORE interesting choices to make dumbing down the game? it sounds to me like you're the one who wanted to keep the game dumbed down with a single best ship

Also Im not sure why you think any of these games are to be relegated to the "fantasy world" but im assuming your going on an incoherent rage rant by now, so no harm done.
Sigras
Conglomo
#425 - 2012-08-10 08:26:28 UTC
Lazaro Lazarides wrote:
I would like to discuss a few things

Firs:
I think you have destroyed the industry of the cargohold optimizations tec 2 because now only the transport ships will be rig this type of rigs. And the people that have it (like me) in the macki only for can do 2 cycles of mining now we have the amazing capacity of cargohold of 621 m3 and I spent only 100 M for this.......I think they should allow to remove the rigs from the mining ships OR change they affect to the ore hold too.


ummm . . . medium cargohold optimization rigs are 6.2 million in Jita, even large rigs (if you bought them before the change) are 30.3 million . . . Im sorry if you rigged your ship > 2 years ago, but I feel like youve gotten enough use out of them to justify their cost, and now you can fit almost every crystal in the game in your cargohold.

Lazaro Lazarides wrote:
And the second comment is for the ore hold of hulk
ONLY 8500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the skiff have 15000!!!!!!!!! or mackinaw 35000!!!! (with the skills at 5)
Thats was te worst change of the new patch. Before you can have whit the EX cargohold more than 17000 m3 and now.... you can only mining wiht orca.
The diference between hulk and skiff is negligible and the people will be prefere to use skiff becaus they only mining a litle less but the have a lot of ore hold.


Well the point was to make the hulk a fleet ship, and as Dave stark pointed out earlier, the extra 16% you get for using the hulk over the mackinaw is 9 minutes 36 seconds per hour. If you spend more than that hauling the ore you mined in that hour you're probably doing something wrong, so the hulk is still the premiere miner even solo.

That being said, if 16% isnt enough for you, perhaps you should look at what some people do to get a 5% advantage . . .

again as dave stark pointed out, a Michi's Excavation Augmentor gives a 5% bonus and its totally sold out in Jita with a buy order for 500 million . . .
Lazaro Lazarides
1st Airborne Division
#426 - 2012-08-10 08:41:16 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Lazaro Lazarides wrote:
I would like to discuss a few things

Firs:
I think you have destroyed the industry of the cargohold optimizations tec 2 because now only the transport ships will be rig this type of rigs. And the people that have it (like me) in the macki only for can do 2 cycles of mining now we have the amazing capacity of cargohold of 621 m3 and I spent only 100 M for this.......I think they should allow to remove the rigs from the mining ships OR change they affect to the ore hold too.


ummm . . . medium cargohold optimization rigs are 6.2 million in Jita, even large rigs (if you bought them before the change) are 30.3 million . . . Im sorry if you rigged your ship > 2 years ago, but I feel like youve gotten enough use out of them to justify their cost, and now you can fit almost every crystal in the game in your cargohold.

Lazaro Lazarides wrote:
And the second comment is for the ore hold of hulk
ONLY 8500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the skiff have 15000!!!!!!!!! or mackinaw 35000!!!! (with the skills at 5)
Thats was te worst change of the new patch. Before you can have whit the EX cargohold more than 17000 m3 and now.... you can only mining wiht orca.
The diference between hulk and skiff is negligible and the people will be prefere to use skiff becaus they only mining a litle less but the have a lot of ore hold.


Well the point was to make the hulk a fleet ship, and as Dave stark pointed out earlier, the extra 16% you get for using the hulk over the mackinaw is 9 minutes 36 seconds per hour. If you spend more than that hauling the ore you mined in that hour you're probably doing something wrong, so the hulk is still the premiere miner even solo.

That being said, if 16% isnt enough for you, perhaps you should look at what some people do to get a 5% advantage . . .

again as dave stark pointed out, a Michi's Excavation Augmentor gives a 5% bonus and its totally sold out in Jita with a buy order for 500 million . . .


I fit the rig tec 2 (80M) two weeks ago :( i know that ther are people that fit it a long time ago, and seeing it from that point of view your right.

I thing
Macki for mining ice and afk mining is now the best
Hulk is only for fleet mining
Skiff is for low sec mining

Now the mining is more .....specialized and the people will use all the ships but now the mining is easier for all. Maby increase the time of skills between the retriever an hulk...
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
#427 - 2012-08-10 08:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Spice Flow
Andrew Indy wrote:
To all the people who keep on saying the Hulk is no longer any good, stop complaining and just get a Mack or Skiff. If 16% less yield is really such a tiny amount then switch to a ship that can carry almost 2X more ore than a Hulk ever could or can tank like a BS. This should be a welcome change if that's the case.

That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.

You might be able to compare this to the Incursion nerf a few months ago.

Before the nerf the Legion was the king of VGs, now it makes up maybe 50% of a fleets DPS if you are lucky. Does it really matter, not really, people adapted, bought new ships and every thing returned to the status quo (less all of the people who only ran incs for bulk Isk)

PS, I mine 3 hours per day everyday (15 ours on weekends), though I shall admit its mostly in HS.

PPS

Quote:
Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression


What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost.



40,000,000 if you made 40mil a day
14,600,000,000 you would make in one year
2,336,000,000 minus your 16%
It would take you 58.4 days to make up the difference ... That’s Massive

And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line... or T2 then T1
maniaconpepsi
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#428 - 2012-08-10 08:46:58 UTC
Haya there I would like to inform you that you have neuted the hulk big time one of its benefactors was the large cargo hold it use to have and now it has half the amount please let me know how the hulk has been improved as you advertise as I see its been neuted quite harshly. sorry to be so forward I dont mean to sound rude as I have enjoyed you game for many years just curious why the down grade on the hulk so much.
Sigras
Conglomo
#429 - 2012-08-10 08:51:36 UTC
Spice Flow wrote:
And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line...

I completely disagree.

Thats the way it was before and it dumbed down the game. There was no choice for which mining barge to mine with, there was an obvious answer to "which mining ship is best"

There should never be an obvious answer to which is the "best" ship. Ask someone which PvP ship is "the best" and theyll tell you it depends, thats how it should be.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#430 - 2012-08-10 08:53:57 UTC
Quote:
ummm . . . medium cargohold optimization rigs are 6.2 million in Jita, even large rigs (if you bought them before the change) are 30.3 million . . . Im sorry if you rigged your ship > 2 years ago, but I feel like youve gotten enough use out of them to justify their cost, and now you can fit almost every crystal in the game in your cargohold.


T2 Rigs are pretty pricey (best sell in Jita is 70,545,999.88 ). T1 are about 6Mil.

Quote:

Lazaro Lazarides wrote:
I would like to discuss a few things


100Mil (140 Mil now ) is only a couple of evenings of mining so it should not be a big deal. If it is a really big deal then maybe you should not have rigged your ship with such expensive rigs because it clear did not pay for itself already.

People PVP in ships worth a lot more than 100Mil everyday (and get popped), at least you used your T2
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#431 - 2012-08-10 08:58:22 UTC
Spice Flow wrote:
Andrew Indy wrote:


That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.



40,000,000 if you made 40mil a day
14,600,000,000 you would make in one year
2,336,000,000 minus your 16%
It would take you 58.4 days to make up the difference ... That’s Massive


Did you read my post, I said it was a large amount. I was just pointing out that it is.
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
#432 - 2012-08-10 08:58:32 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Spice Flow wrote:
And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line...

I completely disagree.

Thats the way it was before and it dumbed down the game. There was no choice for which mining barge to mine with, there was an obvious answer to "which mining ship is best"

There should never be an obvious answer to which is the "best" ship. Ask someone which PvP ship is "the best" and theyll tell you it depends, thats how it should be.



Then they should make a frigate with a huge tank to fit what you are saying... the smallest ship with the biggest tank
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
#433 - 2012-08-10 09:01:59 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Spice Flow wrote:
Andrew Indy wrote:


That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.



40,000,000 if you made 40mil a day
14,600,000,000 you would make in one year
2,336,000,000 minus your 16%
It would take you 58.4 days to make up the difference ... That’s Massive


Did you read my post, I said it was a large amount. I was just pointing out that it is.



oh... soz ... i mush have missread you... my apologies sir
Sigras
Conglomo
#434 - 2012-08-10 09:11:52 UTC
Spice Flow wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Spice Flow wrote:
And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line...

I completely disagree.

Thats the way it was before and it dumbed down the game. There was no choice for which mining barge to mine with, there was an obvious answer to "which mining ship is best"

There should never be an obvious answer to which is the "best" ship. Ask someone which PvP ship is "the best" and theyll tell you it depends, thats how it should be.



Then they should make a frigate with a huge tank to fit what you are saying... the smallest ship with the biggest tank

well realism aside, the balance of the game is improved with this change

IMHO, they should switch the mack and the skiff in role, so the autonomus miner (skiff) can get by with only one crystal per rock type, and the mack would have the toughest tank as it is quite a bit bigger.

That being said, other ships in eve show that size has nothing to do with tanking ability; compare the devoter or damnation to the tempest

Devoter 136,000 - 159,000 EHP
Damnation 270,000 EHP
Tempest 134,000 EHP
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#435 - 2012-08-10 11:08:43 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Quote:
Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression


What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost.

Lets see here on the devblog I can see that the Retriever can out mine a Skiff, and the Covetor can out mine the Mackinaw and the Skiff. I can see T1 Barges out mining T2 Exhumers, I didn't say that the T1 Barges were out mining the T2 Exhumer of the same hull.
Lucy Riraille
Taxeva
#436 - 2012-08-10 12:35:47 UTC
Although there are a lot of very good comments regarding the new "balancing" of mining barges and exhumers, this thread has become a whine thread....

No.1 whining theme: there is a change! This must be bad or a conspiracy against miners

Total BS in my Eyes

No.2 whining theme: the cargohold is too small for zillions of t2 crystals, we will al be drowning in our tears soon....

This is BS too, since the cargohold can be made larger by leaving the cargo rogs in place!
The thread from this one guy who lives in nullsec with Germans and Russians complains that nobody will understan him?!? Complete BS! Most German players know at least enough english to tell him which roids are still in the belt and unmined by others. If he likes to, I can gibe him German lessons for mining ops...

I use mining crystals for my mining alts, but my mining crystals do not pop within a couple of minutes, they last a few hours. So, how long were you expecting to mine or are some people just pissed, that they can't makro mine 23h with their crystals???
Some posters offered enough viable solutions and really, when I lived in a WH I ignored every ore except A + B, even Crokite was some sort of "naah, too crappy.... will rather do a sleeper site or a nulsec roaming, it's safer..."

No.3 whining theme: will we get refunds for our cargohold optimization rigs, now that they are useles?

What????? refund???? Why, they still work an they will give those whiners the room needed for their zillion crystals...

BTW, YOU ARE MINERS!!!! If you can't afford a few new sets of rigs on your exhumers, then stop mining and do mission running, it should be more profitable for you and your style of mining....

Of course, naming this action rebalancing is a bit of a joke. The special roles of the exhumers are gone, just to be replaced by different exhumer "styles". Lot of ehp and "poor" mining yield versus lower ehp und excellent mining yield.

However, so far, the game was totally imbalanced regarding the cost of a well fitted and rigged Retriever versus the cost for a ship needed to gank a Retriever. This was an issue that CCP never sorted out in a just way.

Ganking miners that can't shoot back immediately and then jerking off in front of a killboard is kind of poor in my view and not PvP, but PvV, Player versus Victim.

There are so many wonderful possibilities to PvP on this game, that shooting down rather "helpless" mining vessels should be seen as poor and low as someone can get in PvP circles. But no, many people still jerk off because they managed to gank a retriever.... sigh.... BTW, I am not whining, when I get ganked, I swear, and then I activate my next miming vessel. Some poor gankers land on my list and get hunted by my other chars, but hey, that's EVE...

So, what is there in the end?

A new mining system with a totally different approach to mining roles than before. Is it good? Is it bad? We will see.

When I read first of the oncoming changes, I was totally pissed of too, but then I thought again and began to see the new opportunities. Instead of whining, I bought a mackie, just in case I might need it, I then refitted my Hulks and my retrievers and I am still mining and I am still thinking that mining is boring.

One thing no one seems to have considered so far, these giant oreholds are botter's paradise!!!! I can already see Ice fields and belts full of retrievers and mackies, slurping happily afk or via makro.... more orehold, less travel time, more net yield....

With all my sarcasm on, I can say the following: do not makro mine, when Fanfest is near, because the banhammer will hit you, but after Fanfest, CCP will redeem all the botters.... And who will say anything against a mackie or retreiver returning to base everytime theri orehold is full??? It is as much as a can or even more,
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#437 - 2012-08-10 13:26:12 UTC
I've been mining for awhile since the patch, and overall I'm really liking the changes. In fact, I'm beginning to worry that the Mack/Reg is now overpowered due to the huge ore bays. AFK mining is now even easier. However, the Ret in particular is a boon to solo and small mining corps - better than the Mack in some use cases because it's way cheaper while still being in the ballpark on yield and ore hold. That makes it an ideal candidate for high-risk mining ops and other places where you don't want to risk an expensive ship.

This change is the best thing to happen to mining in a long time.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#438 - 2012-08-10 14:02:01 UTC
Lucy Riraille wrote:
With all my sarcasm on, I can say the following: do not makro mine, when Fanfest is near, because the banhammer will hit you, but after Fanfest, CCP will redeem all the botters.... And who will say anything against a mackie or retreiver returning to base everytime theri orehold is full??? It is as much as a can or even more,


Maybe....maybe not. But there seems to be some indications that the old free and easy days for botters are now a thing of the past:

http://nosygamer.blogspot.co.uk/

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#439 - 2012-08-10 14:23:13 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
I've been mining for awhile since the patch, and overall I'm really liking the changes. In fact, I'm beginning to worry that the Mack/Reg is now overpowered due to the huge ore bays. AFK mining is now even easier. However, the Ret in particular is a boon to solo and small mining corps - better than the Mack in some use cases because it's way cheaper while still being in the ballpark on yield and ore hold. That makes it an ideal candidate for high-risk mining ops and other places where you don't want to risk an expensive ship.

This change is the best thing to happen to mining in a long time.



AFK mining is easier. except that in highsec, the rocks tend not to last that long. (depends on the rock of course)


One of the benefits of mining, say, The Spod

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#440 - 2012-08-10 15:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Caldari 5 wrote:
Andrew Indy wrote:
Quote:
Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression


What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost.

Lets see here on the devblog I can see that the Retriever can out mine a Skiff, and the Covetor can out mine the Mackinaw and the Skiff. I can see T1 Barges out mining T2 Exhumers, I didn't say that the T1 Barges were out mining the T2 Exhumer of the same hull.


Please reread your own post, you clearly say that any of the T1 Hulls can out mine any of the T2 Hulls, i call a load of shite.

any way , one could also say the same about almost any of the classes of ships in the game.

A T1 Punisher can out DPS a Malediction or Sentinel for example, or say a T1 Arbitrator does the same DPS as a curse. Not sure i would want to 1V1 a Curse with an Arbitrator , would you?