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Missions & Complexes

 
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Regarding AFK Complex Farming

First post First post
Author
Kiyarii Oskold
Give my 11percent back
#281 - 2012-08-09 19:11:00 UTC
So I feel the need to risk a generous fellow player and repost his details here, as the backstory to this is a brilliant piece of true Eve emergent gameplay that will otherwise be covered over by CCP rather than championed.
Quote:
It's me

I broke EvE

Here's the deal:
There's a COSMOS complex in the Aphi system called "The Labyrinth". It is a maze of 9 rooms. In each room, there are four gates, and a special battleship and cruiser that spawn over and over relatively rapidly.

You can sit there and manually farm them, but this ISK is pretty bad. Works out to about 5 mil ISK/hour for each room. At first glance, the rooms do not seem AFK farm-able via sentry drones, for two reasons:

#1, the battleships do enough DPS to kill the sentry drones, even with a large remote repairer aimed at each drone.

#2, sentry drones can't track the cruisers, even with multiple drone tracking mods.

These problems combined to create a situation where after a few spawns, the sentry drones would invariably get caught firing at a cruiser, while the battleship would move out of range.
However, if these problems could be solved, I realized that farming the rooms 23/7 with a fleet of AFK dominixes could yield about 24 billion ISK per month, without breaking the EULA. (24 billion AFTER paying to PLEX the necessary accounts).

~5 mil ISK/hour * 9 rooms * 23 hours * 28 days = ~29 bil/month

I decided this was something I wanted to try. I quickly solved the problems I mentioned earlier via trial-and-error.

#1, I came up with a domi fit that was basically 5 large RRs, all omnidirectional tracking links, cap power relays and 1 local rep. Paper-thin tank, but just enough to keep the domi alive vs. the spawn DPS.

#2, I used a fleet booster to increase the amount of reps the RRs put out, solving the problem of the spawn killing sentry drones.

#3 (THIS IS THE IMPORTANT ONE) I dropped the drones in two groups, so one group of sentry drones could always hit a cruiser orbiting the other group. Getting the drones to stay apart was a challenge. Anyone who has used sentry drones knows that they invariably end up at 0 on your ship. That is because sentry drones actually move. They move at 1 m/s towards their current target, and 1 m/s towards you if they are not firing. By dropping three drones, then setting the dominix to "keep at range" or about 7km from one, then dropping the other set, it was possible to keep about 7km distance between the two drone sets that would not close. This spacing allowed the drones to successfully kill the cruiser rats.

With these problems solved, I started farming a few rooms with a few accounts. The ISK was great. However, after a few weeks, I got really sick of flying the ships into place every morning (I always get up around the end of downtime), even though I was making bank.

Another emergent problem was that people had noticed what I was doing and started copying me. People had started to scan my ship and copy my setup.
So I was faced with two new problems:

#1: competition

#2: lack of a desire to set up my fleet every day

I solved these problems together. I decided that rather than farm the rooms myself, I would recruit other people to farm and I would be the overlord of the operation. With a combination of suicide ganking and denial tactics, I would push out the competition. I would use these same tactics to keep my farmers from rebelling against me.

First, I recruited some people. I told them up front that I would be running what amounted to a protection racket. They would farm and pay me a percentage. If they got out of line, I promised I would park a drake AFK in their rooms, which would eventually get aggro and prevent them from AFK farming. I also told them that they would each be required to help me block others from farming if I requested their help. Each room generated about 3.2 bil/month. I would take a 33% cut.

This might seem silly, but for these people, all the incentives were in place for their cooperation. A few people tried to cut me out, and I either blocked them from AFK farming myself, or had other farmers do it. One of my mates referred to this tactic as “pissing in the pot”. If anyone tried to farm without giving me a percentage, I would make sure no one got any isk. There were a few people who tried to keep farming despite my blocking tactics. I started suicide ganking these people with torp ravens and killing their AFK pods with suicide destroyers. It was easy; the farming setups had almost no tank, and Aphi is a 0.5 sec status system. (This was before the insurance change.) Getting into the Labyrinth required a rare and expensive re-usable key. I bought them up. After being ganked, many people found that they could not get back in.

Within a month, I had either driven off or recruited all the competition into my organization. I had farmers in all 9 rooms farming 23/7. Each one paid me a 33% tax rate. For the next year, I collected about 9.6 bil/month and did virtually nothing other than suicide gank a few people and settle occasional disputes between my farmers. Occasionally, haters who knew what I was up to wardec’d my corps, but that was easy to avoid with corp-jumping.

The best part was that this was all done within the scope of what was allowed. It was a goal of mine to not violate the EULA in any way.
Unfortunately for me, eventually a lazy GM mistook my AFK farmers for botters and banned them all. After a lengthy petition process where I was forced to explain all these details, I was able to get the bans reversed, but was informed that what I had done would no longer be allowed, and that the devs would be implementing changes to prevent it from happening in the future.

TL;DR:

I got rich and forced CCP to change their bad game design
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#282 - 2012-08-09 19:11:50 UTC
Time to bring sleeper A.I. into the rest of NPC spawns...
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#283 - 2012-08-09 19:13:33 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Until that "legitimate gameplay" is ruled otherwise, as is the case here, and that "legitimate gameplay" is forced out. At this point, nobody will be banned or otherwise sanctioned who isn't in clear violation of the rules.

Of course! And at that point, we can get the GMs involved to craft and enforce good rules. The rules suggested by Sreegs keep, you know, not working.
Cifese
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#284 - 2012-08-09 19:14:04 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Cifese wrote:

Let me rephrase that in a way that will explain why he won't tell you:

Actually, the previous rule was abundantly clear and easily applied: "any use of a bot or macro makes it botting". Now, if legitimate gameplay is botting if it exceeds certain isk thresholds, suddenly we don't have an abundantly clear and easily applied rule.


Don't be an ass.

If they tell you (or anyone) what the actual ISK level over 23.5 hours is that is a flag, people will just set their bots to stop below that level. Then it's one less tool in the box to stop botting.

Your earlier arguments about how GMs should be involved in this decision was at least a good one, until Sreegs said they were. And the EULA supports the actions CCP is taking. Any 23.5 hr activity that requires absolutely no interaction and carries virtually no risk should be discouraged, and by warning people that it will get them banned, it discourages the activity.

I hate grinding for isk as much as the next guy, and wish it were more fun. But that's not an excuse to do it. Get by with less ISK, or get ISK in other ways. Botting isn't a good answer, and NotBotting isn't any better.

Interact with the game and/or the other players to get your isk.
Suqq Madiq
#285 - 2012-08-09 19:15:08 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Time to bring sleeper A.I. into the rest of NPC spawns...


Sleeper AI would do nothing to solve the issue. Keep misunderstanding this basic concept as it's highly amusing.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2012-08-09 19:20:51 UTC
Cifese wrote:

If they tell you (or anyone) what the actual ISK level over 23.5 hours is that is a flag, people will just set their bots to stop below that level. Then it's one less tool in the box to stop botting.


We wouldn't be having this discussion if Sreegs hadn't said that afk moneymaking that did not involve a bot was fine as long as it did not exceed a certain threshold. If Team Security wasn't trying to enforce their own newly-created rules via the bot detection system we wouldn't need to ask questions about what is and is not legal that involve bot-detection info.
alittlebirdy
All Hail The Liopleurodon
#287 - 2012-08-09 19:26:50 UTC
If that is automated playing the CCP needs to remove eve... as it is NOTHING but using EVE to play... eve then is it's own bot that must be banned...

Someone is just letting the power get to his head.

Rather than the last **** patch we just got (wtf is the point of locking the local list? anyone? the worthless pop ups over mods, etc)
Why not FIX this... rather than "oh do it and be banned."
Shi Xia
Killing With Kindness
#288 - 2012-08-09 19:29:51 UTC
This is what makes this game so bad-ass. Don't slap the smart kids for being smart. Use what they've done and learn from it.
Kiyarii Oskold wrote:
So I feel the need to risk a generous fellow player and repost his details here, as the backstory to this is a brilliant piece of true Eve emergent gameplay that will otherwise be covered over by CCP rather than championed.
Quote:
It's me

I broke EvE

Here's the deal:
There's a COSMOS complex in the Aphi system called "The Labyrinth". It is a maze of 9 rooms. In each room, there are four gates, and a special battleship and cruiser that spawn over and over relatively rapidly.

You can sit there and manually farm them, but this ISK is pretty bad. Works out to about 5 mil ISK/hour for each room. At first glance, the rooms do not seem AFK farm-able via sentry drones, for two reasons:

#1, the battleships do enough DPS to kill the sentry drones, even with a large remote repairer aimed at each drone.

#2, sentry drones can't track the cruisers, even with multiple drone tracking mods.

These problems combined to create a situation where after a few spawns, the sentry drones would invariably get caught firing at a cruiser, while the battleship would move out of range.
However, if these problems could be solved, I realized that farming the rooms 23/7 with a fleet of AFK dominixes could yield about 24 billion ISK per month, without breaking the EULA. (24 billion AFTER paying to PLEX the necessary accounts).

~5 mil ISK/hour * 9 rooms * 23 hours * 28 days = ~29 bil/month

I decided this was something I wanted to try. I quickly solved the problems I mentioned earlier via trial-and-error.

#1, I came up with a domi fit that was basically 5 large RRs, all omnidirectional tracking links, cap power relays and 1 local rep. Paper-thin tank, but just enough to keep the domi alive vs. the spawn DPS.

#2, I used a fleet booster to increase the amount of reps the RRs put out, solving the problem of the spawn killing sentry drones.

#3 (THIS IS THE IMPORTANT ONE) I dropped the drones in two groups, so one group of sentry drones could always hit a cruiser orbiting the other group. Getting the drones to stay apart was a challenge. Anyone who has used sentry drones knows that they invariably end up at 0 on your ship. That is because sentry drones actually move. They move at 1 m/s towards their current target, and 1 m/s towards you if they are not firing. By dropping three drones, then setting the dominix to "keep at range" or about 7km from one, then dropping the other set, it was possible to keep about 7km distance between the two drone sets that would not close. This spacing allowed the drones to successfully kill the cruiser rats.

With these problems solved, I started farming a few rooms with a few accounts. The ISK was great. However, after a few weeks, I got really sick of flying the ships into place every morning (I always get up around the end of downtime), even though I was making bank.

Another emergent problem was that people had noticed what I was doing and started copying me. People had started to scan my ship and copy my setup.
So I was faced with two new problems:

#1: competition

#2: lack of a desire to set up my fleet every day

I solved these problems together. I decided that rather than farm the rooms myself, I would recruit other people to farm and I would be the overlord of the operation. With a combination of suicide ganking and denial tactics, I would push out the competition. I would use these same tactics to keep my farmers from rebelling against me.

First, I recruited some people. I told them up front that I would be running what amounted to a protection racket. They would farm and pay me a percentage. If they got out of line, I promised I would park a drake AFK in their rooms, which would eventually get aggro and prevent them from AFK farming. I also told them that they would each be required to help me block others from farming if I requested their help. Each room generated about 3.2 bil/month. I would take a 33% cut.

This might seem silly, but for these people, all the incentives were in place for their cooperation. A few people tried to cut me out, and I either blocked them from AFK farming myself, or had other farmers do it. One of my mates referred to this tactic as “pissing in the pot”. If anyone tried to farm without giving me a percentage, I would make sure no one got any isk. There were a few people who tried to keep farming despite my blocking tactics. I started suicide ganking these people with torp ravens and killing their AFK pods with suicide destroyers. It was easy; the farming setups had almost no tank, and Aphi is a 0.5 sec status system. (This was before the insurance change.) Getting into the Labyrinth required a rare and expensive re-usable key. I bought them up. After being ganked, many people found that they could not get back in.

Within a month, I had either driven off or recruited all the competition into my organization. I had farmers in all 9 rooms farming 23/7. Each one paid me a 33% tax rate. For the next year, I collected about 9.6 bil/month and did virtually nothing other than suicide gank a few people and settle occasional disputes between my farmers. Occasionally, haters who knew what I was up to wardec’d my corps, but that was easy to avoid with corp-jumping.

The best part was that this was all done within the scope of what was allowed. It was a goal of mine to not violate the EULA in any way.
Unfortunately for me, eventually a lazy GM mistook my AFK farmers for botters and banned them all. After a lengthy petition process where I was forced to explain all these details, I was able to get the bans reversed, but was informed that what I had done would no longer be allowed, and that the devs would be implementing changes to prevent it from happening in the future.

TL;DR:

I got rich and forced CCP to change their bad game design

Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#289 - 2012-08-09 19:30:37 UTC
Its alot easier to not get called on your often wrong bullshit if you can't be constrained by any sort of rules

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Psyise
Orderly Conduct
#290 - 2012-08-09 19:30:56 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Mistakes happen in development. Developers have to correct them. Sometimes, the mistakes are abused and players should be policed as to not abuse those mistakes as they are not intended to be there in the first place.


They should have reverted the change, or disabled plexes until it was fixed.............


The COSMOS sites were added years ago, its not a recent change. Disabling them would punish those players who do them legitimately. Why should those players suffer? Better to just tell those few who do the afk thing to stop until ccp gets time to change how fixed site complexes work.


I can agree with your sentiment but this is not a new issue to CCP. Obviously they have known about it for a while and have developed a system in order to catch people afk'ing while sentry drones mop up in these respawn instances. They are just now warning people of whats being implemented so why didn't they spend the time working on a solution for these COSMOS complex's that respawn mobs instead of coming up with an automated solution to catch people going AFK for extended period of times.

Better yet, what % of time is it ok to be AFK? I am frequently AFK while mining and doing other stuff around the house but am regularly logged in for 7-12+ hours at a time. I frequently leave myself logged in while I eat dinner, do laundry etc. so I am not away for hours at a time.

Obviously I am not making money during all of this period but I do make some money while being away.

Come one, this is eve. I need numbers please. =p
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#291 - 2012-08-09 19:33:55 UTC
Kiyarii Oskold wrote:
So I feel the need to risk a generous fellow player and repost his details here, as the backstory to this is a brilliant piece of true Eve emergent gameplay that will otherwise be covered over by CCP rather than championed.

This is even more brilliant than I'd expected, I like this writeup. Thanks!
DoLoc Two
Sand Castle
#292 - 2012-08-09 19:34:57 UTC
thanks for deleting my previous post... i guess me playing in your sandbox is too much like a bot so you write a bot program to get rid of bots and non-bots (Us, your paying clients).

fix the program without penalizing the legal players should be the goal.

from the posting so far you're efforts are failing...

now back to my drone mining orca...Lol
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#293 - 2012-08-09 19:38:43 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
The perfect opportunity to plug my stance on the matter.

http://soundcloud.com/xenuria/csm8-activity-vs-inactivity


"EVE is a game and games are designed to be played. I feel that people who put time and effort into eve should be rewarded more than people who put minimal effort into eve"


That's the only sentence I could read in that turtle sluggish website. And it's terrible. Because it is WoW "grind grind grind those mobs for phat money" material.

I earn tons of money without even logging in.
I chose to play better instead of playing harder and a functional MMO should let me do that. Period.
Kyle Frost
Inagawa Kai
#294 - 2012-08-09 19:38:45 UTC
Shi Xia wrote:
Screegs,

Don't be so lame, and effing lazy. Penalizing us for using the mechanics that were designed by the devs is a lazy. The players of Eve are smart, and we will use every little mechanic to our advantage. You should be thankful that we are so industrious. It's what separates this game from the rest (for me). Our nature should not bring us under fire. Rather, maybe you should fix the mechanics that make this 'exploit' possible. (Seems to me anyone running low sec/nul sec plexes afk is also under risk of being scanned down and popped.)

Why should the players, who pay your salary have to be penalized for CCP's lack of insight and forethought? At the very least (I believe someone already mentioned) disable the plexes that are providing us with this opportunity that has been created until said problem has been fixed--ON YOUR END.

Let us PAYING subscribers have fun, and get off our backs.


Did it ever occur to you that CCP might need help from the players every now and then, in order to keep the game balanced and “clean”?

When you stumble upon a flaw in the game mechanics, what do you do?
A. Report it and move on.
B. Exploit it to your benefit as much as you can and then cry when the devs threaten to put an end to it.

Judging by posts in this thread, the answer to that one seems obvious, doesn’t it? Like I said, EVE is a huge game – the devs can’t be aware of absolutely everything that goes on in it the entire time. And even if they are aware of a certain problem, the solution is not always simple and easy to implement. (With that said, I really like Kristen’s idea about removing bounties – that just might do the trick and seems simple enough)

Also, I believe that most people who play EVE are intelligent enough to know, when they are taking advantage of a flawed game mechanic. So… “being industrious and playing the game to the fullest” is a cheap, lame excuse! The people who engage in such AFK farming are fully aware of what they are doing.

Simple example, starring the beloved SANDBOX. You need somebody to police and clean the damn thing. Cause every now and then, a kid decides to take a dump in the middle of the sandbox. And what do the other kids do? Well sadly, at least half of them go and take a dump right next to the first one. You wanna try and guess how long any kid will enjoy playing in a full of **** sandbox? Somebody has to take care of the mess. Now looking at your post, you are saying that a kid who takes a dump in the sandbox should get a pat on the back, instead of being punished and forced out of the sandbox – is that about right?

Oh and Shi – nice ninja edit there…

P.S. Oh yeah, another glorious idea - disable the plexes until a fix has been developed. Let's deny COSMOS missions to all the players interested, because some "industrious" guys have decided to take advantage of a flaw in the system. How do you guys come up with this?

Let the gun do the talking!

Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#295 - 2012-08-09 19:39:06 UTC
I really love Screegs' hostile tone in the vast majority of his replies in this topic.

Never mind; I don't. I love hostility inside the game. To be aggressively hostile, condescending, and unprofessional to your customers in real life (or, well, a forum; still real interaction) is not an admirable character trait.

As per the real issue: It's a bit brute-force to leave a game mechanic, tell a small portion of players (people who actively pay attention to stuff out-of-game) that it's not allowed, and get out the ban-hammer. You could, rapidly and with very little effort, reprogram the static sites to run like normal sites, despawn after they were run, and instantly respawn in the same system. You'd have "static" complexes in the same sense that some W-Space systems have "static" wormholes, and no one could be afk for very long. You could avoid all of the angry people by simply changing the mechanic, quickly and correctly, and keeping the ban-hammer stored away entirely.

Whatever you change, call it a patch, not a freaking expansion. The last two "expansions" were just a combination of fixing broken stuff and breaking working stuff.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#296 - 2012-08-09 19:41:20 UTC
You would think with all the rage in the thread that someone actually is banned over this
Psyise
Orderly Conduct
#297 - 2012-08-09 19:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Psyise
Rakamy wrote:
Kristen Andelare wrote:


This!

I know the exact complexes that CCP Sreegs is talking about. COMSMOS missions. I've run them, and spent half an hour to an hour in them, constantly shuttling back and forth to the various cans where the loot spawns, so that I can find the ONE piece of loot I need to move forward. Once, I never found it and gave up, and gave up on the mission. But I saw the potential to just sit in there and shoot things.

A suggestion, remove the bounties from the rats in those COSMOS missions, and instead give an appropriately larger bonus for completing the mission they are intended for, and a large time bonus as well. Problem solved, forever.

Constant reference to AFK mining is really, really dumb. You have to empty your cargohold, without a bot program, you are NOT doing that while AFK. That includes ice mining. the new Mack you can mine in for about 40 minutes while AFK, come back, and OMG, Interact with the GAME!!!. This exploit required no interaction from dropping the drones and turning on the remote reppers to the point where you collect the drones and log off. No bounties would equal no one wanting to try this exploit.

As sreegs said, being AFK for a reasonable period of time (if that's to put in a load of laundry, grab some food, hit the can, kiss the wife goodbye, is perfectly fine. Being AFK for up to 23 hours, no interaction, Not OK.



Exactly and I fail to see how so many people fail to understand what CCP are talking about.....they are not after the ppl that are afk for 20min what ccp are doing are going after the AFK plexers who are AFK for 20hrs. who rake in isk and absolutely do nothing for it in terms of game interaction.

It has nothing to do with AFK mining or AFK missioning (unless your going to sit there and peck at rats for 20hrsLol) and the majority of eve understand this and are not paranoid or doing just what CCP are trying to cut down on like 90% of the people who have posed before me.

Instead of posing an idiotic comments learn the facts about who/what CCP are after in this new "program". You can sill pop your drones from your Domi or Ishtar go do what ever it is you have to then come back....because once a mission is cleared then it wont respawn till after DT and you have to come back to turn it in to set up another. The same with mining you still have to come back time to time to empty your cargo (unless your using a bot which is against the EULA anyway)

I fail to see how so many people cant understand that......


A lot of us do understand that. Your missing the point as well. As players we are being told "your doing it wrong" by playing the game the way CCP has designed it. People have found creative ways to play the game in a manner which CCP does not agree with. I don't believe players should be punished for this, I think they should change the game to make it impossible to AFK these complexes.

I just don't get CCP sometimes. It's ok to scam newbies and do other stuff that would never be allowed in other games but if you setup drones and go AFK in a COSMOS complex your going to be punished?

Ultimately the point is why are they wasting time implementing ways of automatically finding people that may be AFK farming these complexes instead of fixing them?
El Geo
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#298 - 2012-08-09 19:48:33 UTC
while you're at it make those static ded 1/10 and 2/10's into constellation anomalies (anyone can find them) so they respawn instead of just allowing players to sit in the last room farming them
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#299 - 2012-08-09 19:49:30 UTC
SmashTech wrote:
can someone point out for me where the automatic keystroke and mouseclick generation parts are

because I must have missed them


That's because this falls under the bolded part:

3.You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#300 - 2012-08-09 19:51:19 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:


I know the exact complexes that CCP Sreegs is talking about. COMSMOS missions. I've run them, and spent half an hour to an hour in them, constantly shuttling back and forth to the various cans where the loot spawns, so that I can find the ONE piece of loot I need to move forward. Once, I never found it and gave up, and gave up on the mission. But I saw the potential to just sit in there and shoot things.



Too bad it's not just COSMOS missions, there are other, recent PvE additions that exhibit the same identical issue.