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Missions & Complexes

 
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Regarding AFK Complex Farming

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#101 - 2012-08-09 14:50:45 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Dregol wrote:
The "going to do your laundry" bit implies that doing any form of ratting whilst not sitting directly at your computer is now illegal. I mean, what if I have a dominix in an anom, and I go to get a drink or make a sandwich? With your definition, it makes it sound like any and all drone activity while you're not at your computer is a bannable offence.


it's fairly obvious that...


Dude don't overstimate MMO players or their inability to know the game.
There's still people posting confused threads about why their Hulk started "behaving strange" since Inferno 1.2...

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Damion Rayne
Panoptic
#102 - 2012-08-09 14:52:43 UTC
Lucas Quaan wrote:
Damion Rayne wrote:
I run plexes in 0.0 when I was in Test and Dark Rising and you are now effectively telling me that running those plexs with a drone boat, and going afk, is against the rules?

It's not and you are an idiot for thinking so.


You're an idiot for thinking it's wrong, I've got a child to take care of. You're telling me I'm not allowed to put out sentry drones, run a single plex afk, move to the next plex and do it again? What kinda fascist control crap is this? Well since i can't be at the key's 100% of my play time now, and Sreegs will ban me or something, If I walk away for 10 minuets, suppose I just stop logging in unless I can be at the keyboard for 6 hours straight. I'm sure my wife and 2 month old will enjoy my lack of being able to walk away from the computer. Ya know, because Id' rather net have "administrative action" taken against my account for walkign away for an hour.

ROA
Ryakel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-08-09 14:53:24 UTC
OK, so EVE players may be able to get away with ducking out to nuke a hotpocket or a bowl of ramen, maybe even crack open a bottle of beer and/or drop a deuce. So help me though, if CCP catches you taking a shower or doing laundry or ironing, rest assured this violates the EULA.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#104 - 2012-08-09 14:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Legiolith wrote:
It's a sandbox. You put in the mechanics and we make the most of them. If a plex is broken, fix it, don't throw bs around that you will ban people for afk'ing while playing this game as 90% of the damn game can be accomplished while beeing afk. INCLUDING SKILL TRAINING, TRADING, MINING etc...

For the record, I dont do this myself and I think it's f'ed up that you can do it. But if you play by the rules, ie. the game mechanics that are not broken, then you should not be banned for it.

So man the f up and change the plex(es?) in question so you can't do it for 23/7 and stop being a-holes and remove that ******** post about banning players for playing by the rules introduced by you. And we will pretend that his never happened and move on...

DO NOT BREAK THIS GAME! I enjoy it. And I am all that matters.

Love,
Legio


They do this exactly to avoid "BREAK THIS GAME".
COSMOS code is older than a dinosaur, it's some of that stuff you don't ever want to look at it again, and changing a *comment* in the source code might suddenly bug a random part of the game and make Avatars look like a giant phallus. Oh wait...

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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-08-09 14:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
You discover an issue with game design that allows for unintended consequences. Now you can

(A) Fix game design so the unintended consequences can no longer happen.
(B) Leave the "trick" in the game but ban everyone who uses it.

Takes a special kind of developer to choose (B).

This issue has been well known for months and yet there is no proper fix (rework static plexes), instead we get a honeytrap because Sreegs just enjoys blowing up AT ships and banning unsuspecting players.

The very least you could do is give us an official database of behaviors that are consciously made possible by CCP but will get you banned - this news article and discussion thread will be buried in a few weeks (and compete for attention with many prior GD threads which generally declared this behavior legal) and smart players will keep rediscovering this "exploit" over and over.

edit:
on a related note: the drama around the recent give-aways (many people missing the deadlines as they never read the news items) has clearly shown that login screen items and news are not a suitable way to reach out to the EVE playerbase.
Using this medium to spread information that is vital to players is asinine.

.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#106 - 2012-08-09 14:55:43 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

He isn't talking about missions


Pity, AFK missioners should get whacked with the same thing.


Missions are clearly static and their NPCs clearly respawn... Roll

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EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2012-08-09 14:56:44 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Protip for the future: if your computer is logged in 24 (or way more than a person can) hours a day making money in a way that is meant to be active and you're not in front of it you're probably doing something wrong

Why is this being handled by Team Security instead of the GM team? It appears Team Security's only involvement in this case should be clearing the false positive botting mark against the account, then turning it over to the GM team which is in charge of determining what is and is not an exploit when no bots/hacks/etc is involved.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2012-08-09 15:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
I mean "the automated systems handling it" isn't something you've decided on as the proper way to handle non-bot eula violations: it's that the automated systems are creating a false positive and you're refusing to fix it and instead defining it as intended behavior. This isn't a botting issue, and it shouldn't be being handled by the botting team and certainly not by the botting algorithm.

The algorithm ****** up. It should be fixed, not defined as "not ******* up" and team security taking over part of GM responsibilities instead of fixing it.
Damion Rayne
Panoptic
#109 - 2012-08-09 15:02:45 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
You discover an issue with game design that allows for unintended consequences. Now you can

(A) Fix game design so the unintended consequences can no longer happen.
(B) Leave the "trick" in the game but ban everyone who uses it.

Takes a special kind of developer to choose (B).

This issue has been well known for months and yet there is no proper fix (rework static plexes), instead we get a honeytrap because Sreegs just enjoys blowing up AT ships and banning unsuspecting players.

The very least you could do is give us an official database of behaviors that are consciously made possible but CCP but will get you banned - this news article and discussion thread will be buried in a few weeks (and compete for attention with many prior GD threads which generally declared this behavior legal) and smart players will keep rediscovering this "exploit" over and over.


Agreed with pretty much all of this.

ROA
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#110 - 2012-08-09 15:04:52 UTC
Damion Rayne wrote:
Lucas Quaan wrote:
Damion Rayne wrote:
I run plexes in 0.0 when I was in Test and Dark Rising and you are now effectively telling me that running those plexs with a drone boat, and going afk, is against the rules?

It's not and you are an idiot for thinking so.


You're an idiot for thinking it's wrong, I've got a child to take care of. You're telling me I'm not allowed to put out sentry drones, run a single plex afk, move to the next plex and do it again? What kinda fascist control crap is this? Well since i can't be at the key's 100% of my play time now, and Sreegs will ban me or something, If I walk away for 10 minuets, suppose I just stop logging in unless I can be at the keyboard for 6 hours straight. I'm sure my wife and 2 month old will enjoy my lack of being able to walk away from the computer. Ya know, because Id' rather net have "administrative action" taken against my account for walkign away for an hour.


read the damn topic!

it's about a specific cosmos plex and not general nullsec anoms......
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#111 - 2012-08-09 15:06:04 UTC
Damion Rayne wrote:
Brokers Clone wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
If you are aware of a way for miners to mine AFK with no third party programs 24 hours a day without being at their machines and managing cargo then I'm all ears.


Enter belt with uuber-tanked ship and some nice shiney drones
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
etc...etc...etc...


This Sreegs, you obviously don't play the game anymore mate.


Except that he stated mining then used ratting as an example, which would certainly still be detected and fall into the same category.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#112 - 2012-08-09 15:08:50 UTC
Damion Rayne wrote:
Lucas Quaan wrote:
Damion Rayne wrote:
I run plexes in 0.0 when I was in Test and Dark Rising and you are now effectively telling me that running those plexs with a drone boat, and going afk, is against the rules?

It's not and you are an idiot for thinking so.


You're an idiot for thinking it's wrong, I've got a child to take care of. You're telling me I'm not allowed to put out sentry drones, run a single plex afk, move to the next plex and do it again? What kinda fascist control crap is this? Well since i can't be at the key's 100% of my play time now, and Sreegs will ban me or something, If I walk away for 10 minuets, suppose I just stop logging in unless I can be at the keyboard for 6 hours straight. I'm sure my wife and 2 month old will enjoy my lack of being able to walk away from the computer. Ya know, because Id' rather net have "administrative action" taken against my account for walkign away for an hour.


What you're referring to was never mentioned in the news item. You're deciding for yourself what the news item means and applying it in a way that is not what is discussed. This has been edited in the news item and repeated more than once in this thread, but you're still deciding that I'm staring through the internet at you waiting for you to walk away from your PC instead of what the content of the news article is really about which is extreme and isolated scenarios where people are able to login at downtime, release sentries, and go do something else until the next downtime.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2012-08-09 15:09:48 UTC
100% passive income has been a part of this game since datacore agents were invented, and especially since PI was introduced. Both allow you to make money with less "at the keyboard"ness than this.

It's not a team security issue and team security has no business declaring it botting: it should be punted to the GM team and the game design team for exploit determinations and fixing respectively. The GM team exists to make consistent decisions that respect previous decisions on how the game can be played, and to provide the proper layers of asking things be looked at again by a fresh set of eyes. It has no business being the province of an algorithm gone rogue.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#114 - 2012-08-09 15:11:02 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Reading skill are not at 5 for a lot of posters here.

/me sad....


On the other hand, thick-skull 5 and idiot 6 seems to be common enough.

People see the letters AFK and go all apeshit thinking it applies to every possible way to be AFK.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2012-08-09 15:11:02 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

What you're referring to was never mentioned in the news item. You're deciding for yourself what the news item means and applying it in a way that is not what is discussed. This has been edited in the news item and repeated more than once in this thread, but you're still deciding that I'm staring through the internet at you waiting for you to walk away from your PC instead of what the content of the news article is really about which is extreme and isolated scenarios where people are able to login at downtime, release sentries, and go do something else until the next downtime.

If you think it's an exploit, then the GM team should be alerted to the details and allowed to handle it as they see fit. We're all 100% clear it's not a bot, it's not RMT, it's not a hack, and so there's no reason for team security to be involved.
Damion Rayne
Panoptic
#116 - 2012-08-09 15:11:27 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Damion Rayne wrote:
Brokers Clone wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
If you are aware of a way for miners to mine AFK with no third party programs 24 hours a day without being at their machines and managing cargo then I'm all ears.


Enter belt with uuber-tanked ship and some nice shiney drones
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
Wait
Watch rats spawn
See drones kill rats...
get bounty
etc...etc...etc...


This Sreegs, you obviously don't play the game anymore mate.


Except that he stated mining then used ratting as an example, which would certainly still be detected and fall into the same category.


It's the same bloody thing! Let me give you an example,

I park my hulk in a belt, target roids, put out some drones and practically go afk watching tv on net flix while only every so often switching clients to have my alt come pick up a load. The main account is for all intents, AFK..pretty sure the way I understand how you're handling things lately, you'd ban us from doing this to eventually. I mean come on...what's the exact details of this?

What do you define as "Normal Game-play", because I'd like to know. I've been online for 12-13 hour sessions before, and I know other people have.

ROA
Fatbear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-08-09 15:12:29 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
You discover an issue with game design that allows for unintended consequences. Now you can

(A) Fix game design so the unintended consequences can no longer happen.
(B) Leave the "trick" in the game but ban everyone who uses it.

Takes a special kind of developer to choose (B).

This issue has been well known for months and yet there is no proper fix (rework static plexes), instead we get a honeytrap because Sreegs just enjoys blowing up AT ships and banning unsuspecting players.

The very least you could do is give us an official database of behaviors that are consciously made possible but CCP but will get you banned - this news article and discussion thread will be buried in a few weeks (and compete for attention with many prior GD threads which generally declared this behavior legal) and smart players will keep rediscovering this "exploit" over and over.

edit:
on a related note: the drama around the recent give-aways (many people missing the deadlines as they never read the news items) has clearly shown that login screen items and news are not a suitable way to reach out to the EVE playerbase.
Using this medium to spread information that is vital to players is asinine.


Most sensible post in this thread.

That aside, this is a monstrous example of poor developer posting and mismanagement of information. Created a s**t-storm over a limited bug/exploit, rattling the cages of plenty of innocent/uninvolved players. Far better option would've been to just fix the sodding problem and not panic every drone using high-seccer into a meltdown.
Legiolith
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2012-08-09 15:12:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Legiolith wrote:
It's a sandbox. You put in the mechanics and we make the most of them. If a plex is broken, fix it, don't throw bs around that you will ban people for afk'ing while playing this game as 90% of the damn game can be accomplished while beeing afk. INCLUDING SKILL TRAINING, TRADING, MINING etc...

For the record, I dont do this myself and I think it's f'ed up that you can do it. But if you play by the rules, ie. the game mechanics that are not broken, then you should not be banned for it.

So man the f up and change the plex(es?) in question so you can't do it for 23/7 and stop being a-holes and remove that ******** post about banning players for playing by the rules introduced by you. And we will pretend that his never happened and move on...

DO NOT BREAK THIS GAME! I enjoy it. And I am all that matters.

Love,
Legio


They do this exactly to avoid "BREAK THIS GAME".
COSMOS code is older than a dinosaur, it's some of that stuff you don't ever want to look at it again, and changing a *comment* in the source code might suddenly bug a random part of the game and make Avatars look like a giant phallus. Oh wait...


Haha, well I am happy that you spend most of your time messing with your avatars looks and that it's of a big concern to you. However for the rest of us that don't play "Dress Up My Little Pony" during downtime, "BREAK THIS GAME" means CCP telling us how to play a SANDBOX game. And old code is no excuse...
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#119 - 2012-08-09 15:13:50 UTC
Damion Rayne wrote:
Lucas Quaan wrote:
Damion Rayne wrote:
I run plexes in 0.0 when I was in Test and Dark Rising and you are now effectively telling me that running those plexs with a drone boat, and going afk, is against the rules?

It's not and you are an idiot for thinking so.


You're an idiot for thinking it's wrong, I've got a child to take care of. You're telling me I'm not allowed to put out sentry drones, run a single plex afk, move to the next plex and do it again? What kinda fascist control crap is this? Well since i can't be at the key's 100% of my play time now, and Sreegs will ban me or something, If I walk away for 10 minuets, suppose I just stop logging in unless I can be at the keyboard for 6 hours straight. I'm sure my wife and 2 month old will enjoy my lack of being able to walk away from the computer. Ya know, because Id' rather net have "administrative action" taken against my account for walkign away for an hour.


I would just like to have one thing clarified...

Is this the character with which you go AFK on to do your plexing?

Inquiring locator agents want to know...

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#120 - 2012-08-09 15:14:01 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
100% passive income has been a part of this game since datacore agents were invented, and especially since PI was introduced. Both allow you to make money with less "at the keyboard"ness than this.

It's not a team security issue and team security has no business declaring it botting: it should be punted to the GM team and the game design team for exploit determinations and fixing respectively. The GM team exists to make consistent decisions that respect previous decisions on how the game can be played, and to provide the proper layers of asking things be looked at again by a fresh set of eyes. It has no business being the province of an algorithm gone rogue.


Nobody ever said anything about passive income. Every example of passive income mentioned thus far has been designed purposely to be so. This was not. It becomes a security issue when it is egregious enough to be virtually identical to botting. The GM team is aware of this news item and the details and the game design team has committed to fixing the problem.

If you have some insight that I don't as to what is or isn't my team's responsibility however please feel free to clue me in because it seems to differ from that of my boss.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012