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New dev blog: Ship Balancing: Mining Barges

First post
Author
Zanmaru
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#261 - 2012-08-05 22:52:34 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.

We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.

The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.

Let's take Miner A, who lives in Amarrian Empire space. Gravitational sites rarely spawn in his systems, and he really doesn't bother looking for them. Instead, his mining is limited to just the four ores that appear in Amarrian high sec -- Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, and Kernite. He hasn't even bothered to train the ore specialization skills for any of the other ores, because he never even sees them. When he gets home from work and goes mining, he just jumps in his Hulk. It's strip miners are already loaded with 3 Veldspar crystals (from the last op). His cargo bay already contains 3 Scordite, 3 Pyroxeres, and 3 Kernite crystals (taking up 225 cubic meters), plus one spare crystal for each of the 4 ore types in his system. No forethought, no planning, and no communication with other miners is needed. His Hulk is always ready to go.

Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.

When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.

When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.

So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.

He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.

This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.

Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts.


The delicious tears of those unused to change in a game that's defined by change. That scenario is chock full of poor planning and personal issues, as the others mentioned.

I just have to ask though: If high sec miners have it so good, why not just set up a jump clone and do your mining there?
George K'ntara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2012-08-06 01:24:44 UTC
Though in general I am very happy with the changes I do wish this blog had come out before everything was decided.

Also this blog is a little confusing since many of the stats in the blog are not what was on Sisi just yesterday. Didn't get a chance to check today.

Things that I wish were different.

I would rather have the options someone earlier in this thread posted.

Have the Procurer/Skiff not have a mining bonus besides the role bonus, and have a sig radius reduction bonus instead.

Have the Retriever/Mackinaw lose a mining bonus and get a mining range bonus instead. (Ore hold should hold about 30 minutes worth of mining)

Have the Covetor/Hulk have enough cargo bay to fit at least half or more of all types of mining crystals and 25m3 more for swapping. There are enough people I believe making valid points in this thread for the cargo hold to get a boost. The Ore hold is fine just holding one cycle's worth of max mining.


I also feel like all the T2 ones should have the 7.5% bonus to shields. Or just give us the Minmatar T2 shield resists (j/k) Anyway though I like the idea of roles I do think T2 should ships should retain a significant boost in defense to offset the risk of flying them.

I agree with multiple people in this thread that a module would have been preferable to have modules instead of rigs to give you the ice/Mercoxit mining bonus. Because as it stands if I want to be do everything with the mining ships I need at least 9 ships instead of just 3.

Lastly, I would have wished that instead of all these built in stats that we had been given the slots and fittings to find our own
solutions.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#263 - 2012-08-06 01:43:47 UTC
George K'ntara wrote:
Though in general I am very happy with the changes I do wish this blog had come out before everything was decided.

CCP Ytterbium announced these changes back in mid-June.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

There is also a 47 page feeback thread, in which several of the issues raised in this thread were brought up previously (albeit seemingly ignored, for the most part).

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=121281
Borgholio
Borgholio's Collective
#264 - 2012-08-06 02:25:02 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Borgholio wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Borgholio wrote:
My solution? Use T1 miners that don't need crystals.

except macks with t2 strips not worrying about crystals will outmine hulks.

how is that a solution?


Because you're not worrying about crystals? That's the whole point...just to not worry about crystals. If you have to worry about crystals when flying a hulk, then use T1 miners or don't fly a hulk.


and a mackinaw having more yield ehp and cargo isn't an issue to you?

the problem is that just puts the... oh **** it, i can't be bothered to argue the point again. it's been done to death and ccp are intent on making mining more of a pain for the same reward. let them get on with it, i'm bored of discussing it.


It's supposed to have more ehp and cargo. Yield, I can agree that the Hulk needs to be better. But again, I'm only arguing the part about the crystals. Ship balance is another topic entirely.

You will be assimilated...bunghole!

SkullKn0cker
State War Academy
Caldari State
#265 - 2012-08-06 02:56:19 UTC
Overall the changes look ok. However I don't understand the 1 cycle to fill up the hulk.. That really makes no since to me. I do understand the idea it's going more the fleet miner now, tbh it was already basically but was also good for solo mining. I don't believe letting the hulk have 2 or 3 cycles in it's hold would be bad. One cylcle is just a little insane. Also are the acual size of the barges/exhumers changing? Last time I looked at my retriver next to a hulk it is tiny compared to that beast.
Challu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2012-08-06 04:02:35 UTC
SkullKn0cker wrote:
Overall the changes look ok. However I don't understand the 1 cycle to fill up the hulk.. That really makes no since to me. I do understand the idea it's going more the fleet miner now, tbh it was already basically but was also good for solo mining. I don't believe letting the hulk have 2 or 3 cycles in it's hold would be bad. One cylcle is just a little insane. Also are the acual size of the barges/exhumers changing? Last time I looked at my retriver next to a hulk it is tiny compared to that beast.


No afk mining for you!

Time to switch to the mack after 1.2.
lucy numbers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2012-08-06 05:18:17 UTC
Kaycerra wrote:
Because he knows that they are already jewing up all the good rocks, and it is unlikely that he will find a full spread of what he wants, miner B hops into an interceptor that is fitted with an MWD, and a survey scanner.



easy does it, racist...
Kaycerra
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2012-08-06 06:13:09 UTC
lucy numbers wrote:
Kaycerra wrote:
Because he knows that they are already jewing up all the good rocks, and it is unlikely that he will find a full spread of what he wants, miner B hops into an interceptor that is fitted with an MWD, and a survey scanner.



easy does it, racist...


Interceptors aren't a race, they are a class of ships.
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#269 - 2012-08-06 08:16:03 UTC
For the one or two people who keep requesting a drop in the calibration of the new specialty rigs to 200, so they can fit two:

One one rig of this type can be fitted to a single ship (that means, you're not allowed to fit a Ice and Mercoxit rig to the same ship). That was on the rig description on Sisi when they FIRST released them, when the calibration was only 50. They were never intended to be fit in pairs. Raising the calibration to 250 is INTENDED, to prevent that exact thing. I hope that is now clear. That's why they're going to ignore your pleas.

To the guy who sold his Skiffs and Mackinaws, sucks to be you man, That was a fool move if ever there was a fool move. On other blogs, people that make them are selling them like hotcakes, as the demand will be high.

To the guy who said that he hardly ever sees Mackinaws in Ice Belts anymore? Are you actually looking? Because I mine in Ice belts at least a few times a week, and if there's 50 ships in the belt, 4 will be Orcas, and 40 will be Macks, and 6 will be either Hulks or the occasional retriever piloted by a noob miner. Post patch it won't be different, because MOST ice miners in highsec operate without orca support, not with it (even I do that more often than not, and I have orca pilots). The retriever will allow them to mine for almost an hour before having to dock. Put a show on netflix on the other screen, keep an eye on your ship, you're golden. The yield may be slightly less than a hulk, but it is hassle free.

For those of you whining about "wasting your skilling" for a Hulk, geez, go look again. Your skills are NOT wasted. Your Exhumer V Hulk (Mack or Skiff too) out-mines and Exhumer IV one.

For those that think, oh, just fly a Covetor or Retriever and mine almsot as much as a Hulk, why waste my ISK? Well, if you want a TANK at all, you'll get an exhumer. Not only do they mine faster, better, but they ALL have more mid slots than the piddling ONE that Retrievers and Covetors get. One mid = survey scanner, NO tank. And they get 5% shield resistance bonuses per level. Nothing of that sort on the T1s. A Covetor can barely survive belt rats in Amarr space, where they shoot at the EM hole (base 0%).

And yeah, buried in the CSM notes was a profound statement that CCP (and many on the CSM) would like to get rid of off-grid boosting (mostly to make CCP fix the Fleet Command Ships so people will fight in them, and not allow off-grid T3 boosters). What was NOT mentioned was Rorqual and ORca off-grid boosts at all. So I imagine that when someone points out that an across-the-board nerf of off-grid boosting would get most of the Rorquals killed within a few months, CCP will either make an exception, or re-thin it more carefully.

Oh, one last thought. Complaining about not being able to fit ONE ship for best Ice/Ore mining, when you have to have a Mack and Hulk for that today makes you look a little silly, don't you think?

So many misconceptions. Can't wait for patch day. Hurrrrrrr!!!! Big smileBig smileBig smile
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#270 - 2012-08-06 08:21:00 UTC
Zev Lothair wrote:
My alt is a solo miner with a hulk - the Hulk did fit my play style and now it is just going to sit useless so i will just have to pick up a Mackinaw to take longer to mine & hope I don't chewed up by rats too badly. I solo because I want to and the hours I play are random.

CCP changes the rules so we change to suit or stop playing, it's that simple.


While I think of the Hulk as the king of the miners CCP either does not or have decided to change the king so just get use to it. If it is as bad as people think then the drop in mineral production will show up in the numbers quickly and there will be changes


The Mack a much better tank than the Hulk ever did. You'll be safer than ever from those rats you seem to fear. 30-40k EHP with skills a decent fitting, since you no longer will be fitting cargo rigs and expanders on it, you've got at least one rig slot to help the tank, plus an extra low you didn't have before. You'll survive the experience.
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls
#271 - 2012-08-06 11:25:49 UTC
ok I have been doing some theory craft on SIS on the last day.

--start rant--
and here are my thoughts

Hulks and macks are currently too expensive for the amount of ore mined compared to the difference of ore mined with the other hulls. This is because (from the stats that I have been getting on my maxed chars) the ore gap is now very narrow compared pre-patch. I am not saying this is a bad thing. I am just saying I dont see the point of using Hulks/Mac compared to the relatively cheap replacement cost of the other hulls.

on the Ice side. Macs probably be the Botters dream... 30 Mins with out needing to be unload/docked. heck I am not complaining. maybe my R.S.I. will heal, but I do think this is a little to long. may be 20mins tops (based on perfect high sec stats of 67 blocks and 35 Block capacity


Also due to the changes in ore capicity and the increase in ore amount per cycle for the retriever having 6.25 cycles and 4398.04 m3 per cycle real world high sec max stats. means that AFK mining is now possible and heck @ the current prices of trit you could replace this cheap ship in about 2 hours compared to a hulk which is a 30+ hours. Granted Hulk makes more, but compared to the prepatch the retreiver earners more then before and the hulk stays the around the same. we should see an uptick in retriever cost and a hulks to retract a little in value.

it looks like the price devaluation is happening now with Hulks having 2 Dev blogs (tech and mining change) with in a week the price has dropped already. you can overlay both dev blogs over the prices history and see perfect market reaction.


interesting time indeed to be part of the eve online experience.


--end rant--
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2012-08-06 11:28:49 UTC
WHAT ABOUT A GAS MINING SHIP? X
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls
#273 - 2012-08-06 11:32:44 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:
For the one or two people who keep requesting a drop in the calibration of the new specialty rigs to 200, so they can fit two:

One one rig of this type can be fitted to a single ship (that means, you're not allowed to fit a Ice and Mercoxit rig to the same ship). That was on the rig description on Sisi when they FIRST released them, when the calibration was only 50. They were never intended to be fit in pairs. Raising the calibration to 250 is INTENDED, to prevent that exact thing. I hope that is now clear. That's why they're going to ignore your pleas.


I could not agree more.

what about a compromise. How about droping it to 200 and negating a 2nd one if used, tgat way you could multi Role the mining vessel. 1xMercoxit rig and 1 x ice rig..

1 ship that could fit 2 role if needed.
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls
#274 - 2012-08-06 11:35:22 UTC
Freibuis wrote:
ok I have been doing some theory craft on SIS on the last day.

--start rant--
and here are my thoughts

Hulks and macks are currently too expensive for the amount of ore mined compared to the difference of ore mined with the other hulls. This is because (from the stats that I have been getting on my maxed chars) the ore gap is now very narrow compared pre-patch. I am not saying this is a bad thing. I am just saying I dont see the point of using Hulks/Mac compared to the relatively cheap replacement cost of the other hulls.

on the Ice side. Macs probably be the Botters dream... 30 Mins with out needing to be unload/docked. heck I am not complaining. maybe my R.S.I. will heal, but I do think this is a little to long. may be 20mins tops (based on perfect high sec stats of 67 blocks and 35 Block capacity


Also due to the changes in ore capicity and the increase in ore amount per cycle for the retriever having 6.25 cycles and 4398.04 m3 per cycle real world high sec max stats. means that AFK mining is now possible and heck @ the current prices of trit you could replace this cheap ship in about 2 hours compared to a hulk which is a 30+ hours. Granted Hulk makes more, but compared to the prepatch the retreiver earners more then before and the hulk stays the around the same. we should see an uptick in retriever cost and a hulks to retract a little in value.

it looks like the price devaluation is happening now with Hulks having 2 Dev blogs (tech and mining change) with in a week the price has dropped already. you can overlay both dev blogs over the prices history and see perfect market reaction.


interesting time indeed to be part of the eve online experience.


--end rant--


I forgot to mention retriever can fit about 9 cycles with cargo rigs. thats about 30mins afk as well

Zev Lothair
Dalek TacOps - Caldari Div
#275 - 2012-08-06 12:23:53 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:
Zev Lothair wrote:
My alt is a solo miner with a hulk - the Hulk did fit my play style and now it is just going to sit useless so i will just have to pick up a Mackinaw to take longer to mine & hope I don't chewed up by rats too badly. I solo because I want to and the hours I play are random.

CCP changes the rules so we change to suit or stop playing, it's that simple.


While I think of the Hulk as the king of the miners CCP either does not or have decided to change the king so just get use to it. If it is as bad as people think then the drop in mineral production will show up in the numbers quickly and there will be changes


The Mack a much better tank than the Hulk ever did. You'll be safer than ever from those rats you seem to fear. 30-40k EHP with skills a decent fitting, since you no longer will be fitting cargo rigs and expanders on it, you've got at least one rig slot to help the tank, plus an extra low you didn't have before. You'll survive the experience.

Gainard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2012-08-06 13:05:03 UTC
So the Hulk outmines the Mack in ICE - clever move.
And Hulk cargo hold nerved to near nil. Can i get a refund for the cargohold rigs?
I have been training like an idiot to become a perfect miner, after this "update" I become a perfect idiot.
Thanks.

Man, I train for certain goals and then the related skills / modules / ships get nerfed. I hate to be addicted to EVE.

Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls
#277 - 2012-08-06 13:18:11 UTC
Gainard wrote:
So the Hulk outmines the Mack in ICE - clever move.
And Hulk cargo hold nerved to near nil. Can i get a refund for the cargohold rigs?
I have been training like an idiot to become a perfect miner, after this "update" I become a perfect idiot.
Thanks.


I wouldnt say wasted. This means now you can play you own style instead of being funneled down 1 choice of hulk.. or what was the other choice again.. oh yeah thats right.. a hulk,

example: you want to play the AFK game.. you can.. if you want to MAX RSI Game. there is now something in it for you to.


Basically the hulk really hasnt changed. excecpt for ice. But will mean that it will need at least 2 chars mininium to support it (mining logistics & mining hauling). so basically this is for at least a fleet of a minimum 4 hulks. cargo space hasnt changed that much for it. you can put cargo rigs on it. every one keeps saying its nerfed.. hmm doesnt look that nerfed. if you are putting it beside another new mining hull then I understand that.

Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#278 - 2012-08-06 13:32:18 UTC
I seriously dont get all the whining, I for one am very happy and cant wait to hit the belts again after a long break from mining!
Gainard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2012-08-06 13:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gainard
Well one could say the roles of Hulk and Mack have been reversed.
In case of Hulk mining ice even the efficiency is improved. And The mack with 35k orehold is now ideal for solo mining - ice or ore though ore with reduced efficieny.

Even the if effective ore volume is not that much different there is a catch:
My hulk has a cargohold of 11520m^3, good for almost two cycles. After the mining I can fit two expanders making for almost 19k to carry my crystals away. After the nerf it will be 8000 ore and 350 cargo (~490 with the 2 T2 cargohold optimizers - if they dont get blown away with the calibration nerf ).
That means when solo mining and refining in system I still have to get a hauler to carry the refined crystals away as they wont go into the ore hold - even if I use the Mack. In the end it makes solo mining that much less effective.

Man, I train for certain goals and then the related skills / modules / ships get nerfed. I hate to be addicted to EVE.

Gainard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2012-08-06 13:50:57 UTC
Forgot one thing: With the unified inventory the two holds will mean even more fiddeling with windows Evil I hope they put the orehold in the right click menu!

Man, I train for certain goals and then the related skills / modules / ships get nerfed. I hate to be addicted to EVE.