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Self-destruct changes on Singularity

First post First post
Author
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#181 - 2012-07-31 12:31:55 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why?

Why in hell do you cater so overtly to the very small (but insanely loud(mouthed)) group of players called griefers/gankers?



What makes you think that this has anything to do with griefing or ganking?

.

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#182 - 2012-07-31 12:50:47 UTC
Roime wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why?

Why in hell do you cater so overtly to the very small (but insanely loud(mouthed)) group of players called griefers/gankers?



What makes you think that this has anything to do with griefing or ganking?



There's a certain type of player who think that any mechanic they don't like is 'griefing'. The majority of players realise this was an issue with reports of the events in a battle being a bit wonky because of a very old mechanic, but good luck getting these fools to understand that.

Repeat after me, folks:
Blowing up your ship is not griefing.
It is not griefing for the game to record/make visible your loss.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#183 - 2012-07-31 13:11:28 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why?

Why in hell do you cater so overtly to the very small (but insanely loud(mouthed)) group of players called griefers/gankers?



What makes you think that this has anything to do with griefing or ganking?



There's a certain type of player who think that any mechanic they don't like is 'griefing'. The majority of players realise this was an issue with reports of the events in a battle being a bit wonky because of a very old mechanic, but good luck getting these fools to understand that.

Repeat after me, folks:
Blowing up your ship is not griefing.
It is not griefing for the game to record/make visible your loss.

Quite true, but think about it .. when/where do you encounter the SD, I bet it is not in what we like to call the 'Good Fight' .. which just happens to leave griefs and ganks. There is just no reason to press that button except when all possibilities of/options for survival has been exhausted.
If you can blow up my ship then more power to you, but if you can't even be bothered to bring a tool big enough to do it before I fall asleep then I want the option of spitting in your face .. that is what they are taking away. Scuttling to avoid capture of materials and valuables has been used since mankind first discovered buoyancy and took to the sea to wage war (ie. quite a while).

As I said, I am more than on board with it generating a mail or loot .. but it should not do both or the entire feature just makes no sense and should be removed outright (or given a 0-5s timer), doubly so if blobs are not working as intended .. because Goddess forbid that blob monkey's should have a grain of sand in their sandals, much better to stick rest of Eve's lower legs in cement!!!!!!!!! Big smile

Answer the question of why the mechanic should even be in game without the Spit-in-face function .. it adds absolutely nothing and offers nothing for the player other than the ability to save a bit of time before undocking in a new ship .. something that can be just easily accomplished by ejecting.
Sure, ejecting leaves the whole ship in the hands of the anaemic dps aggressor, but a loss is a loss and it doesn't really matter to a mugging victim if a mugger only takes half the cash in his wallet before burning it or empties it proper like.

Suggested change just makes no sense.
Mikeyeve
Bio Derp
#184 - 2012-07-31 13:19:52 UTC
At last, thank you CCP! Big smile
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#185 - 2012-07-31 13:57:41 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why?

Why in hell do you cater so overtly to the very small (but insanely loud(mouthed)) group of players called griefers/gankers?



What makes you think that this has anything to do with griefing or ganking?



There's a certain type of player who think that any mechanic they don't like is 'griefing'. The majority of players realise this was an issue with reports of the events in a battle being a bit wonky because of a very old mechanic, but good luck getting these fools to understand that.

Repeat after me, folks:
Blowing up your ship is not griefing.
It is not griefing for the game to record/make visible your loss.

Quite true, but think about it .. when/where do you encounter the SD, I bet it is not in what we like to call the 'Good Fight' .. which just happens to leave griefs and ganks. There is just no reason to press that button except when all possibilities of/options for survival has been exhausted.
If you can blow up my ship then more power to you, but if you can't even be bothered to bring a tool big enough to do it before I fall asleep then I want the option of spitting in your face .. that is what they are taking away. Scuttling to avoid capture of materials and valuables has been used since mankind first discovered buoyancy and took to the sea to wage war (ie. quite a while).

As I said, I am more than on board with it generating a mail or loot .. but it should not do both or the entire feature just makes no sense and should be removed outright (or given a 0-5s timer), doubly so if blobs are not working as intended .. because Goddess forbid that blob monkey's should have a grain of sand in their sandals, much better to stick rest of Eve's lower legs in cement!!!!!!!!! Big smile

Answer the question of why the mechanic should even be in game without the Spit-in-face function .. it adds absolutely nothing and offers nothing for the player other than the ability to save a bit of time before undocking in a new ship .. something that can be just easily accomplished by ejecting.
Sure, ejecting leaves the whole ship in the hands of the anaemic dps aggressor, but a loss is a loss and it doesn't really matter to a mugging victim if a mugger only takes half the cash in his wallet before burning it or empties it proper like.

Suggested change just makes no sense.


Well, even before considering the possibility of denying loot (which I'd be fine with), self destructing still allows for players to get out of certain places or situations. Stuck in a wormhole? SD. Someone pointed you and wont let you go (but wont kill you) until you pay a ransom? SD. Etc.

As for "but if you can't even be bothered to bring a tool big enough to do it" ... this isn't quite reasonable. For a start, the timer is a static two minutes, but the ehp of ships ramps up like crazy with capitals and supers. It's not that someone didn't have a force appropriate to kill the ship, it's just the fact that despite the ships survivability being scaled up, and even the aggressors forces being scaled up to overcome it... the effort/time/whatever for it to pop itself didn't scale at all. That was a bit silly. Also it's more of a problem in wormhole space where mass limits may prevent you bringing a force big enough to kill (potentially multiple) capitals, let alone wipe them out in under 120 seconds.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#186 - 2012-07-31 14:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Veshta you obviously don't like blobbing and yet you want people to be able to "scuttle" their ship if their opponent doesn't blob enough ? (i can only assume you mean blobbing when you say griefs and ganks)
You'll get more good fights if people don't have to bring overwhelming force to be able to get loot/killmail.

The change Masterplan is making is perfect because the old mechanic was idiotic and only kept in place because of whiney carebears who wanted to be able to grief the people who defeated them. (you can call it spit-in-the-face if you want)

But hey write off my opinion as just another insanely loudmouthed griefer/ganker, and not that of someone who has been active in this game since beta.

PS; as a roleplayer do you honestly think it's reasonable for every single ship in eve to have explosives rigged up everywhere that'll do more damage than any external attack could ?
That's a colossal waste of resources, and a huge stupid risk to the safety of ship and crew.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#187 - 2012-07-31 15:55:34 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
Veshta you obviously don't like blobbing and yet you want people to be able to "scuttle" their ship if their opponent doesn't blob enough ? (i can only assume you mean blobbing when you say griefs and ganks)
You'll get more good fights if people don't have to bring overwhelming force to be able to get loot/killmail.

The change Masterplan is making is perfect because the old mechanic was idiotic and only kept in place because of whiney carebears who wanted to be able to grief the people who defeated them. (you can call it spit-in-the-face if you want)

But hey write off my opinion as just another insanely loudmouthed griefer/ganker, and not that of someone who has been active in this game since beta.

PS; as a roleplayer do you honestly think it's reasonable for every single ship in eve to have explosives rigged up everywhere that'll do more damage than any external attack could ?
That's a colossal waste of resources, and a huge stupid risk to the safety of ship and crew.


Yes, that is entirely reasonable. Who WOULDN'T want to have their spaceship packed to the rafters with dangerous explosives and other such materials. Risk to the crew? It's motivation.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#188 - 2012-07-31 16:03:13 UTC
damn crazy capsuleers :(
i can't really argue with that except to say you should have to make those changes yourself (fit a rig or something)
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2012-07-31 16:40:44 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why?

Why in hell do you cater so overtly to the very small (but insanely loud(mouthed)) group of players called griefers/gankers?



What makes you think that this has anything to do with griefing or ganking?



There's a certain type of player who think that any mechanic they don't like is 'griefing'. The majority of players realise this was an issue with reports of the events in a battle being a bit wonky because of a very old mechanic, but good luck getting these fools to understand that.

Repeat after me, folks:
Blowing up your ship is not griefing.
It is not griefing for the game to record/make visible your loss.

Quite true, but think about it .. when/where do you encounter the SD, I bet it is not in what we like to call the 'Good Fight' .. which just happens to leave griefs and ganks. There is just no reason to press that button except when all possibilities of/options for survival has been exhausted.
If you can blow up my ship then more power to you, but if you can't even be bothered to bring a tool big enough to do it before I fall asleep then I want the option of spitting in your face .. that is what they are taking away. Scuttling to avoid capture of materials and valuables has been used since mankind first discovered buoyancy and took to the sea to wage war (ie. quite a while).

As I said, I am more than on board with it generating a mail or loot .. but it should not do both or the entire feature just makes no sense and should be removed outright (or given a 0-5s timer), doubly so if blobs are not working as intended .. because Goddess forbid that blob monkey's should have a grain of sand in their sandals, much better to stick rest of Eve's lower legs in cement!!!!!!!!! Big smile

Answer the question of why the mechanic should even be in game without the Spit-in-face function .. it adds absolutely nothing and offers nothing for the player other than the ability to save a bit of time before undocking in a new ship .. something that can be just easily accomplished by ejecting.
Sure, ejecting leaves the whole ship in the hands of the anaemic dps aggressor, but a loss is a loss and it doesn't really matter to a mugging victim if a mugger only takes half the cash in his wallet before burning it or empties it proper like.

Suggested change just makes no sense.


True, just gunslinger troll dont understand anything from this changes.
After this changes the SD function will be an useless feature which is nonsense and loot drops from a ship a fail when a player destruct his ship and his modules because he dont want to give them to enemy hands.

DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#190 - 2012-07-31 16:41:22 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:

PS; as a roleplayer do you honestly think it's reasonable for every single ship in eve to have explosives rigged up everywhere that'll do more damage than any external attack could ?
That's a colossal waste of resources, and a huge stupid risk to the safety of ship and crew.


You really don't need explosives, just read the lore on what the powerplants on ships are. Cut the safeties (override them) and pretty soon you'll have a nice big boom that leaves just an expanding cloud of gas and minute particles, nothing even remotely intact left.

And yes, I consider this change to be absolute bollocks, why shouldn't I be able to deny my opponents the killmail and loot?
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#191 - 2012-07-31 16:45:44 UTC
awww does ccp disagree with you despite you being such an internets spaceships engine expert maybe you should cry about it to your mommy
Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-07-31 16:49:33 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
awww does ccp disagree with you despite you being such an internets spaceships engine expert maybe you should cry about it to your mommy


Or just some PL guys cried too mutch to CCP momm, because the smart capital pilots selfdestructed their own ship before some PL blobber got a killmail. :P
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#193 - 2012-07-31 16:50:56 UTC
you're so angry you can't spell :(
Lucas Quaan
Dead Game.
HYDRA RELOADED
#194 - 2012-07-31 17:12:11 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
But hey write off my opinion as just another insanely loudmouthed griefer/ganker, and not that of someone who has been active in this game since beta.

I think you have it backwards here. The people self-destructing are the ones griefing and you are crying about it. Despite being the bitter-vet thing to do, it's not very piratey of you.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#195 - 2012-07-31 17:58:31 UTC
He was lumping anyone who likes the change under insanely loudmouthed griefer/ganker, I myself wouldn't claim to be a griefer since I'm a nice guy really !

Nor a pirate tbh since I haven't ransomed anybody in ages, and I'll cry about people self-destructing if I want to so there. :(
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#196 - 2012-07-31 19:04:03 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:


PS; as a roleplayer do you honestly think it's reasonable for every single ship in eve to have explosives rigged up everywhere that'll do more damage than any external attack could ?
That's a colossal waste of resources, and a huge stupid risk to the safety of ship and crew.


you just failed physics tyrrax. badly.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#197 - 2012-07-31 20:03:25 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:


PS; as a roleplayer do you honestly think it's reasonable for every single ship in eve to have explosives rigged up everywhere that'll do more damage than any external attack could ?
That's a colossal waste of resources, and a huge stupid risk to the safety of ship and crew.


you just failed physics tyrrax. badly.


no I didn't , and you're an idiot if you think you know how internets spaceships self-destruct physics work and how it makes perfect sense for them to vaporize everything aboard without possibility of salvage while every other cause of spaceship death in the eve universe does not
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#198 - 2012-07-31 20:08:37 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
Veshta you obviously don't like blobbing and yet you want people to be able to "scuttle" their ship if their opponent doesn't blob enough ? (i can only assume you mean blobbing when you say griefs and ganks)
You'll get more good fights if people don't have to bring overwhelming force to be able to get loot/killmail.

Blobs mainly stem from CCPs insistence on having most game altering mechanics revolve around EHP grinds, started back when they introduced POS and have been expanded upon to this day with the biggest blob inducer being supers.
Another major contributor to blobs has been the population increase, we are flock animals (or whatever the mammalian equivalent is) through and through after all .. strength in numbers is as old as life itself so blobs will never be gone from Eve until we start the inevitable decline.
Griefs and Ganks include blobs, but also for example the frigate that can hold a ratting BS or even a super perpetually with logoffski having been nerfed recently .. it basically means any lop-sided fight which does not necessarily mean a blob.
Players (myself included at times), as much as we don't want to admit it, are not generally looking for a good fight but a win at whatever cost. That is why we bring bling, friends and do our utmost to manipulate the environment in our favour (Grid Fu .. never did get the hang of that one Sad) ..
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
The change Masterplan is making is perfect because the old mechanic was idiotic and only kept in place because of whiney carebears who wanted to be able to grief the people who defeated them. (you can call it spit-in-the-face if you want)

Current system is pretty borked and it has been an ongoing topic for as long as I can remember, but changes suggested makes the existence of the SD button itself moot. What possible purpose would anyone ever have for pushing it when it goes live .. only thing it will do is save a bit of time before reship .. no point in making those changes when almost the exact same can be achieved by simply removing the code altogether.
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
But hey write off my opinion as just another insanely loudmouthed griefer/ganker, and not that of someone who has been active in this game since beta.

You actually stayed through the beta .. couldn't stand it myself .. like playing a MUD version of Skyrim Big smile
I never discount any opinion if it is valid and properly presented, rarely are on the hot topics such as SD, griefing/ganking and my darling FW though .. very often degenerate into slurs, personal attacks and alt spam.
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
PS; as a roleplayer do you honestly think it's reasonable for every single ship in eve to have explosives rigged up everywhere that'll do more damage than any external attack could ?
That's a colossal waste of resources, and a huge stupid risk to the safety of ship and crew.

Every single ship, no. Every ship designed for combat, yes. We already see that today with SD mechanism in most of the high-tech junk being launched against the various cave dwelling (relatively) nations as the wars for control of resources escalates.
Besides, we are talking spaceship with what is presumably fusion or anti-matter reactors .. read up on the damage done by our comparatively primitive fission reactors when they fizzle unintentionally and consider that a deliberate meltdown/destruction will probably be magnitudes worse (cruisers in Eve have approximately the same (slightly lower) output as a modern day nuke plant by the way).
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#199 - 2012-07-31 20:08:53 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:

True, just gunslinger troll dont understand anything from this changes.
After this changes the SD function will be an useless feature which is nonsense and loot drops from a ship a fail when a player destruct his ship and his modules because he dont want to give them to enemy hands.



I do believe I gave very clear examples of where self destructing is still a useful action. I even said I personally wouldn't mind if loot DIDN'T drop.

So I don't know why you're screaming that I'm a troll. Had to self destruct one too many capitals, have you? Don't want the rest of EVE to know you lost a ship because of an embarrassing lolfit or something?
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#200 - 2012-07-31 21:18:41 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Every single ship, no. Every ship designed for combat, yes. We already see that today with SD mechanism in most of the high-tech junk being launched against the various cave dwelling (relatively) nations as the wars for control of resources escalates.
Besides, we are talking spaceship with what is presumably fusion or anti-matter reactors .. read up on the damage done by our comparatively primitive fission reactors when they fizzle unintentionally and consider that a deliberate meltdown/destruction will probably be magnitudes worse (cruisers in Eve have approximately the same (slightly lower) output as a modern day nuke plant by the way).


Pretty sure ships in eve are designed to resist that kind of thing , they have defences, resistances etc - a doomsday blasting your dreadnaught to bits still leaves half your modules intact , I don't see any reason to think your ship's engines blowing up would have a greater effect ( if that's even how eve self-destruct is supposed to work )

The ability to destroy your cargo and modules can hardly be a high priority when designing the ship considering how open everything is in the eve universe technology wise , not like the Amarr would be paranoid about Minmatar getting hold of their fancy laser technology . Roll

If they did have something super secret on a particular ships then they could install special systems for self-destruct purposes - something capsuleers should also be required to do.
Fit a rig or whatever if you want the nearly pointless ability to deny loot .

PS; by your logic Hulks, Freighters, Rorquals, Jump Freighters should not be able to self-destruct their mods / cargoholds