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Self-destruct changes on Singularity

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Farsot Muvera
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#121 - 2012-07-28 12:27:46 UTC
Agreed with idea about NO LOOT, its more fair. KM and loot after SD is absolutely not balanced.

The victim may have a lot of fun after SD some PVE fitted fat Tengu. He is ok with losing his ship, but the attacker still cant count on KM. If we talking about really balanced decision, it should be - no km, but loot inside wreck or no loot, but KM. Both things in one time are pointless. If the attacker dont have enough dps to kill the target, its the problem of attacker, not the victim.

Timer for different ships could be different too, but the whole idea about SD before this patch was right. Dont ruin it with not balanced things.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#122 - 2012-07-28 12:49:41 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Well at this point if you can't make the tactical decision to deny loot, why don't they just remove self destruct completely from ships? I am all about there being kill mails and such, but with a properly balanced self destruct timer based on ship class/size blowing up everything including loot should remain an option.


it's not really a tactical decision so much as a LOLOL I CAN GRIEF PEOPLE BY DENYING THEM KM AND LOOT I'M SO COOL LOL decision
zero effort griefing just to be a ****, don't get me wrong I'm all for griefing but sometimes it's just too easy
just like ganking hulks was too easy
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2012-07-28 13:02:37 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Well at this point if you can't make the tactical decision to deny loot, why don't they just remove self destruct completely from ships? I am all about there being kill mails and such, but with a properly balanced self destruct timer based on ship class/size blowing up everything including loot should remain an option.


it's not really a tactical decision so much as a LOLOL I CAN GRIEF PEOPLE BY DENYING THEM KM AND LOOT I'M SO COOL LOL decision
zero effort griefing just to be a ****, don't get me wrong I'm all for griefing but sometimes it's just too easy
just like ganking hulks was too easy

That is your point of view. i don't see it that way at all. Try and think about it from a balancing point of view.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#124 - 2012-07-28 13:16:44 UTC
what about adding this rule only for capitals? (but i still think the cargo rule is not needed)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Possum's Awesome
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
#125 - 2012-07-28 13:31:29 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
For the Inferno 1.2 release, we've modified the self-destruct mechanics a little. These changes are now live on the Singularity test server. You can go and try them for yourself, and leave feedback in this thread.


Loot Drops
Ships that self-destruct will now drop loot in their wreck. This follows the regular chance-based loot-drop mechanics for items fitted to the ship and carried in the cargo hold.


Kill Reports
Ships that self-destruct whilst under aggression will now generate a regular kill-report. In order for this to happen, the ship must have been recently aggressed, and there must be at least one of the aggressors in space in the system at the time of death. The final-blow will be awarded to the eligible attacker who inflicted the most damage.

Self-destructs that do not involve player aggression will not generate a kill-report


By the way, you may have seen reports of the occasional self-destruct kill-report on Tranquility recently. These were caused by an unrelated defect, and were not intentional. Typically the items list of such mails is incomplete. I'm stating this in-advance, as no doubt someone would have asked about it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4
Possum's Awesome
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
#126 - 2012-07-28 13:40:25 UTC
Farsot Muvera wrote:
Agreed with idea about NO LOOT, its more fair. KM and loot after SD is absolutely not balanced.

The victim may have a lot of fun after SD some PVE fitted fat Tengu. He is ok with losing his ship, but the attacker still cant count on KM. If we talking about really balanced decision, it should be - no km, but loot inside wreck or no loot, but KM. Both things in one time are pointless. If the attacker dont have enough dps to kill the target, its the problem of attacker, not the victim.

Timer for different ships could be different too, but the whole idea about SD before this patch was right. Dont ruin it with not balanced things.


Seriously?

If the attacker doesn't have the dps to kill the target, the target will live until: The attacker's friends come help, the attacker dies, or the target's friends show up. (subcaps, or if the target can make it to a gate/station and dock)

Log off changes were made for the very same reason.

This isn't about dps to kill the target, this is about not having enough dps to kill the target within 2 minutes, which has always been a ******** move.

No one can argue that KMs for SDs are only needed for KB kiddies, without immediately identifying themselves as people who SD to deny KMs because they're KB kiddies.

I honestly don't care, one way or the other, about loot drops for SD, but there is absolutely nothing "fair" or "unfair" about either option. If you're that obsessive about denying others your loot, fly with an alt to blow up your wreck if you die.
ChaeDoc II
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2012-07-28 14:07:55 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
ChaeDoc II wrote:
joes Bazooka wrote:
ChaeDoc II wrote:
This just goes to show that if you whine and cry like little babies hard enough for a game-breaking mechanic to be installed, sooner or later you'll get your way.

This is a sad day for EVE Online.


Spoken by someone that couldn't balls up and had to SD his stuffs to save face.



Says the alt.


I'm not an alt. And seconded. You're whining because you probably lose nine times out of ten. To those who win, this simply isn't a problem. For everyone else, it's a HUUUUGE problem. Clearly, you're in the latter group.



Seconding with your main, that's just sad.
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#128 - 2012-07-28 20:06:36 UTC
Quote:

A 5 minute timer on a capital and 10 minutes on a supercapital would give someone an ambitious goal to reach toward by overheating everything in a final attempt to deny loot to the attacking party - whilst still giving some chance for smaller gangs to cut through the EHP in time.


Eject at <25% structure in a capital if you have a damage control fitted.
Ship goes pop without killmail and without loot.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2012-07-28 20:17:32 UTC
I agree with removing loot drop and insurance from self destructed ships. I do think shorter SD times (say, 30s across the board) would be good.

However, the best part has already been done. No more tears over lost kill mails and no more cries of "lol bring moar deeps ******."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bent Barrel
#130 - 2012-07-28 20:32:21 UTC
how about removeing killmails completely ? CCP will get less work (like endless additions and tweaks) and we'll get rid of killmail whores ...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-07-28 21:03:35 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
how about removeing killmails completely ? CCP will get less work (like endless additions and tweaks) and we'll get rid of killmail whores ...

Yeah let's remove the only way players and alliances have to track their kills and losses. What a great idea.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2012-07-28 21:26:08 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
how about removeing killmails completely ? CCP will get less work (like endless additions and tweaks) and we'll get rid of killmail whores ...

Seriously, get out. This game would be nothing if it was not for the stories. Guess what helps tell the stories? Kill mails reports.
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-07-28 22:02:24 UTC
Good change, CCP. Well done.
Zoe Athame
Don't Lose Your Way
#134 - 2012-07-28 22:25:09 UTC
Going to agree with loot drops. Explosion by SD or explosion by guns/missiles both leave similar wrecks.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#135 - 2012-07-28 22:50:52 UTC
I can honestly say, Im not so sure I like this change. I mean if you want to attack someone to get a kill or steal their loot then you should be able to kill them. Really there are two sides to this, the attacker and the defender. So here is a scenario.

Lets assume Im a freighter pilot warping around through low sec like an idiot. All of a sudden a wolf for instance decides to gank me off the gate and station so no retaliation from guns. Its just my freighter vs his wolf. This wolf decides to warp jam me, at this point im left with three options. A. Call and wait for backup, B. Wait for the wolf to very slowly kill my ass, or C. Self-Destruct.

Option A might work, or I may not have anyone online who can help, option B = death, but my attacker can rob my **** when I die. So they get to kill my ship and take the loot. THIS is the option that should exist. Option C means I die to protect my cargo from falling into others hands, THIS is MY tactical advantage.

If you have enough DPS to kill a ship before 2 minutes then you damn well ******* deserve anything and everything that drops including the kill report. However, if you cant kill me in 2 minutes I personally dont feel like you deserve **** for being such a lousy killer. If I SD, I lose **** and the aggressor has made me lose ****. Your taking something that takes work to achieve and making it easy as turning on a turret and it shouldnt be that way. If you want to kill me and take my cargo, KILL ME, LOOT my wreck and EARN your kill report. You just have to do it faster than I can kill myself.

Ultimately, I do not see anything decent coming from this change, your taking something that is fair on both parties and forcing people to lose no matter who or what kills them, and honestly I think its bull ****.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2012-07-28 22:59:22 UTC
Octoven wrote:
I can honestly say, Im not so sure I like this change. I mean if you want to attack someone to get a kill or steal their loot then you should be able to kill them. Really there are two sides to this, the attacker and the defender. So here is a scenario.

Lets assume Im a freighter pilot warping around through low sec like an idiot. All of a sudden a wolf for instance decides to gank me off the gate and station so no retaliation from guns. Its just my freighter vs his wolf. This wolf decides to warp jam me, at this point im left with three options. A. Call and wait for backup, B. Wait for the wolf to very slowly kill my ass, or C. Self-Destruct.

Option A might work, or I may not have anyone online who can help, option B = death, but my attacker can rob my **** when I die. So they get to kill my ship and take the loot. THIS is the option that should exist. Option C means I die to protect my cargo from falling into others hands, THIS is MY tactical advantage.

If you have enough DPS to kill a ship before 2 minutes then you damn well ******* deserve anything and everything that drops including the kill report. However, if you cant kill me in 2 minutes I personally dont feel like you deserve **** for being such a lousy killer. If I SD, I lose **** and the aggressor has made me lose ****. Your taking something that takes work to achieve and making it easy as turning on a turret and it shouldnt be that way. If you want to kill me and take my cargo, KILL ME, LOOT my wreck and EARN your kill report. You just have to do it faster than I can kill myself.

Ultimately, I do not see anything decent coming from this change, your taking something that is fair on both parties and forcing people to lose no matter who or what kills them, and honestly I think its bull ****.

You've clearly never tried to kill a capital ship with a moderate sized fleet.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#137 - 2012-07-29 00:23:20 UTC
I really love the change of self destruction, however I always found it fair to deny loot from self destructing a ship...

Will it be a problem to reduce the chance of loot from self destructing ships? or at least have self destruction cause a smart bomb blast or in another way make it beneficial?
Possum's Awesome
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
#138 - 2012-07-29 09:41:20 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
how about removeing killmails completely ? CCP will get less work (like endless additions and tweaks) and we'll get rid of killmail whores ...



Yes, because I want to turn Tranquility into Serenity.... seriously though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhkNLHictW8






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhkNLHictW8




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhkNLHictW8




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhkNLHictW8







If you don't get the reference, Serenity (China server) is mostly forum pvp because they have no API, no kill reports, so its all e-bushido/bragging on the forums.
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-07-29 12:00:42 UTC
Great change especially for wormhole people. Now if we could get no SD in POSes :)

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#140 - 2012-07-29 12:26:50 UTC
Kill mails are fine, as long as there's a note attached that says "self-destruction" or something. Dropping loot is not fine. It eliminates the whole tactical element of self-destructing. That element is to deny the enemy materiel and information. You scuttle your boat so that the enemy can't have those things. And no, self-destructing doesn't, and shouldn't, cause similar damage levels that incoming firepower does. You're destroying something from within, meaning that you can go after the most vulnerable, unprotected things.

Personally, I've only self-destructed during a fight two or three times in my entire decade here. I've had it done to me dozens of times, including shiny mission boats and Orcas. Yet I still feel that this game mechanic should remain, because without it, the game would be more homogenous.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted